"I know a lot of people who live more moral lives than most Christians I've met. But they are atheists and muslims and new-agers and whatnot. However good they behave, it'll never be pleasing to God."
Remember that Holo. And also remember that no one is good and no one leads a good and moral life according to God's standard. That's the standard that rules our lives.
"My behaviour could never please God anyhow. So thankfully, I'm free from focusing on trying to do good enough for God, and rather let God himself do what God does best - through me."
So when you sin, it's God who is causing you to sin?
"The intentions would be good, but the results will suffer. Because when you try to live according to the law, YOU are left to achieve things. Living in faith, on the other hand, lets Christ GIVE you victory, it lets Him prepare the works FOR you, it lets HIM live. Living according to law is actually the opposite of dying to ourselves. Also, the commandment is the power of sin, so the more you try to live according to the law, the easier it is to be caught in the sin that the law prohibits."
Of course you're going to be caught when you sin, that's what the law does, it brings about the knowledge of sin. When I sin, I am driven to my knees before God in repentance. When you sin, and I know you still do, you just keep going and turn a blind eye to it and convince yourself you didn't do it, because you now have Christ.
"It happened with the first forbidden apple, and it still happens to believers everywhere today. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life."
Wrong, sin becomes evident. That's what the law is Holo, a mirror that reveals who you truly are. It exposes your sin. The reason people don't want anything to do with the law is because it exposes them as sinners and they can't handle that revelation.
"What rules did God have for Adam and Eve's lives?"
Do not eat of that tree leaps to mind.
"Aside from being fruitful, the only commandment was to NOT learn about right and wrong. Again, the law was never meant for righteous people."
So Adam and Eve were not righteous or perfect when God created them before they sinned against Him by violating His rule?
"I won't be judged according to some moral law. Or, if I am, I will be declared righteous."
Yes you will and the penalty for your sin will be set aside, because Christ paid that at the cross. You will also give a testimony to God of all your actions and thoughts.
"I'm not saying that sinners won't be judged righteously. The mosaic law, though, has nothing to do with it. It was only given to Israel."
Alot of the Mosaic law was given to Israel, but God's moral law is for everyone. It is how He declared all people are to live. It's His standard of what is acceptable behavior to Him. God is the same yeseterday, today and tomorrow. His moral standards do not change.
"So you figure we are to be guided by it. But I've never seen a christian even try to follow the law."
How do you know? If you are judging people by the 10 Commandments and saying to yourself "hey that guy just told a lie, or that guy is cheating on his wife, that's not Christian behavior!" You're judging others in the body of Christ, based upon God's moral law, a behavior you think is reprehensible and not the job of a Christian.
"No, actually the law was meant to make SIN exceedingly SINFUL. And that's what it does."
You can't increase the foulness of sin. It is what it is.
"Abraham didn't need the law as a guide to anything. Why should I?"
Where's your proof of that? Where is your proof that Abraham didn't need the law? If you had any it'd be here in this post to back up your assertion.
"No, he extended grace as soon as he saw his son."
You don't know the second he saw his son, that's when he extended grace. You weren't there. I wasn't either and that's why I don't make claims like this.
"Good! The law is for the wicked and the ungodly. I'm born again, I am in Him and He is in me. He IS my life.
What rules, exactly, should I need in my life? What rules do YOU need to have in your life?"
Without rules, there is chaos. I need to know what is acceptable and pleasing behavior in God's sight so I can live according to His standard, not my own.
"If someone saves your life, will you ask the guy for some rules you can follow in order to show your gratitude?"
You are so hung up on seeing the law as a bunch of rules that you can't get past that. You will ask the person "what can I do for you?" That's natural. With the new nature, God gives us the desire to live a life that is pleasing for Him. He has given us His standard of what is appropriate and what is not, and you want to ignore that standard because you have been born-again. You want only one gift from God and not the other.
"Yes, and when we try to tell them how God sees things, we portray him as an angry judge."
He is an angry judge and He must uphold the law. If you do not accept Christ taking your penalty on the cross for your sins, that angry judge is going to send you to Hell.
"Actually, that's God's idea too. Jesus let the adulterous woman go. He said "go and sin no more" - do you think she never sinned again?"
The Bible is silent, therefore she must not have sinned again. Because if she had, surely the Bible would have told us. Isn't that how you think?
"If she went straight back to a life in whoredom, do you think Jesus would regret what He did? Barabbas, too, was let go. He represents us."
No, He would have pardoned her again, because He knows what she is, a sinner, who is repentant in her heart of her actions against a holy and just God. Those are the people that receive grace. The ones who show they are sorry for what they have done.
"Unlike a human judge's love, God's love actually transforms people."
If a human judge has that kind of devotion to the law and what it demands, how much more devotion to the law must your Father in Heaven have?
"God is a father more than a judge."
There you go again, deciding which attributes God has more of, based upon what you like. God is only your Father in Heaven after you have been reconciled back to Him through Christ, not before.
"And He HAS judged sin. He did that on the cross. The punishment was laid on HIM."
The punishment was laid upon Him for those who call upon His name to be saved. But if you don't repent you don't repent of your sins and show that you are sorry for your heinous crimes against God you will not receive
the gift of salvation.
"Yes, in order to FOLLOW Christ you would actually have to do all those tings and pick up your cross etc. But that's not the way we are supposed to follow Him. Because now, He has already picked up the cross, and we are DEAD. His burden is LIGHT and His yoke is EASY. Jesus IS good and DOES good, and He's never good to us in order that we shall do this or perform that or please him here or achieve somthing there. Jesus does good because of WHO HE IS, not because of what we deserve or are able to give in return. God is LOVE."
So Jesus, who is God, then changed after the cross? Before the cross you had to pick up your cross and follow after Him, doing all He commanded, but after the cross, you don't? Jesus changed? God changed? That's not what scripture teaches. Remember what James said, faith without works is dead. But hey, you've got your "get out of hell free card", why should you have to do anything to please God, right?
"That's my point - they will raise new buildings and walk right past the hobos and the beggars."
And you say others are judgmental! LOL
"I have nothing against rules per se, but I prefer
life. Christ didn't come to give us rules, but LIFE. And life is to KNOW HIM."
You have everything against rules, you have said repeatedly you don't need them and they have no place in your life.
"But I'll consider a rule if I run into a situation where I'd need it."
Perfect example of a person living for themselves. You're saying "I don't need God's rules until I say I do and until I see a need for them."
"Well, I never say God has commanded me to follow rules, so no worry
"
Yeah we know and that's why there is worry.
"True, I do what I please. And what do I please? To do good. To worship the Lord. To share the good news."
Which Jesus commanded you to do. So you do follow the rules of God after all, well at least one.
"But what rules, exactly, do you mean He has set down for my life? Jesus IS my life. Has God set down rules for Jesus?"
Jesus is God. Yeah I believe God didn't let Jesus, even though He had the power, take Himself off that cross.
"It's not just me and God, though. I have neighbours too. But I don't live FOR anything or anyone. I live IN the Lord."
You contradict yourself here. You say Jesus is your life, then you say I don't live for anyone. If Jesus is your life you live for Him. You have already said you do what He has commanded you to do in sharing the gospel with the world. So you are doing things for Jesus. You do follow rules and you do not do what you please, you do what Jesus has given you to do.
"To put it another way, I live "for" God in the same way that Adam and Eve did."
Yeah we know.
"Oh yes, I most definately am! He saw that it was GOOD."
He saw that they were good after He made them, not after they ate of the fruit. Then He saw them as wicked and sent them out of paradise, because the very sight of them repulsed Him.
"Yes, because they made the choice to eat from the law tree. They shouldn't have, and I won't do the same mistake."
They didn't follow the law God had set down, you are making the same mistake. You just refuse to see it.
"What should they need the ten commandments for?"
So that they know what God finds acceptable and unacceptable. If you repeatedly break the law, is God going to think you're living for Jesus or Him or that you love or respect Him in any way? Of course not! Nobody would.
"Yes. To be fruitful and multiply."
Wrong. To not eat of the tree is what God told them to do. They didn't do that, then they were punished and that's when the command to be fruitful and multiply came into play.
"Exactly. It was satan who made them aware of law and sin and nakedness."
It was the fruit that did that. Satan just twisted the words of God to get them to disobey God.
"What does it look like?"
It looks like people who keep and obey God's moral law because they love God. It looks like people who submit to God's will and authority in their lives. It looks like people who say not my will but God's will. It doesn't look like people who say "I do what I want and have no need for any law, but if I ever see a need I will follow it."
"It is, if you use it to measure and determine the faith of others. God has GIVEN each of us faith according to HIS OWN measure. Not according to a creed."
I'm not using a creed or a statement of faith to measure the faith of another.
"Well, "he went and hanged himself" is straight out of scripture too, but that doesn't make it useful or even sensible."
Have I told you to go hang yourself?
"He has defined Himself in Christ, not in a book. In a person. The book describes God in many ways, but the only way to actually KNOW God, is to MEET Him."
And where does one go to learn about God?
"Why must a child realize why they have a dad and understand the family unit? Don't you let you kids be just kids?"
Nope, you raise them up and teach them lessons and correct them when they displease you and live for themselves instead of upholding the standards you have set for acceptable behavior. You don't just let them run free doing what they please.
"The fact that we understand family dynamics and whatnot when we grow older is a bonus, not a requirement for
being a child."
You learn that stuff as a child, you realize it's value when you get older.
"God Himself did."
How did God compare a flawed human relationship with your earthly father to your relationship with Him?
"Maybe so, and maybe by not stealing I have also kept Egyptian law. I am as much a subject to Egyptian law as I am to the ten commandments."
You sir, have made it clear that you live for yourself and no one else.
"The point isn't to keep commandments, but to love."
Keeping God's commands are one way we show God that we love Him and respect Him.
"I love, and the law has absolutely nothing to do with it."
You love, that's true, but only yourself and what you deem is right and wrong.
"And you fear I may be dishonest about myself because I don't share you exact understanding of things - you can assume the best about me until it turns out we're not exactly the same. We disagree on MY use for the law, and you begin talking about immoral brothers and wolves in sheep's clothing..."
You have no use for the law. That is a sign of someone who is not born again, a red flag.
"Hehe! No offense, but I'm getting a laugh out of stuff like that."
I know. Another red flag. You laugh at the law and at God by doing so. I think I'm starting to see why a lot of churches don't like you.
"No. There are as many ways to Christ as there are people."
Okay and once you've met Christ, what do you do?
"Almost as fine as your sarcasm"
Sarcasm is your signature move, not mine. I have no sarcasm here, just concern and it's apparently unwelcome. I'm done. Goodbye.
