Remember, the law doesn't work alone. It works in conjunction with your conscience too and the Holy Spirit as well. Because of the law I know it is wrong to steal, murder, worship false idols, take the name of the Lord God in vain, commit adultery, covet, etc.
I know those things are wrong completely regardless of the law.
By not doing these things that God has commanded are wicked, I live a life that is pleasing to God
I know a lot of people who live more moral lives than most Christians I've met. But they are atheists and muslims and new-agers and whatnot. However good they behave, it'll never be pleasing to God.
My behaviour could never please God anyhow. So thankfully, I'm free from focusing on trying to do good enough for God, and rather let God himself do what God does best -
through me.
Only if you're going back to the law to earn your way to Heaven. If you're living a law guided life out of thankfulness to God, that is not wrong.
The intentions would be good, but the results will suffer. Because when you try to live according to the law, YOU are left to achieve things. Living in faith, on the other hand, lets Christ GIVE you victory, it lets Him prepare the works FOR you, it lets HIM live. Living according to law is actually the opposite of dying to ourselves. Also, the commandment is the power of sin, so the more you try to live according to the law, the easier it is to be caught in the sin that the law prohibits. It happened with the first forbidden apple, and it still happens to believers everywhere today. When the commandment comes, sin springs to life.
Dying to yourself means dying to your rules for your life and adopting God's rules for your life. Living for Him.
What rules did God have for Adam and Eve's lives? Aside from being fruitful, the only commandment was to NOT learn about right and wrong. Again, the law was never meant for righteous people.
And did Adam and Eve "live for Him"? I'm sure if you'd asked them, they wouldn't even understand what you meant. They just lived. They lived WITH Him and IN Him and FROM Him.
You just don't get it. You can not comprehend the fact that if you are not born again that when you die, you will be judged by God's moral law.
I won't be judged according to some moral law. Or, if I am, I will be declared righteous.
I'm not saying that sinners won't be judged righteously. The mosaic law, though, has nothing to do with it. It was only given to Israel.
He said Himself that not one letter, jot or tittle of the law would be set aside until He came again.
So you figure we are to be guided by it. But I've never seen a christian even try to follow the law. Instead, they take only part of the law, and construct a bunch of new commandments from the NT.
The law is your guide to living a life that is pleasing to God.
No, actually the law was meant to make SIN exceedingly SINFUL. And that's what it does.
Abraham didn't need the law as a guide to anything. Why should I?
Right, when the father started talking to the son he saw that the son was broken and sorry for his actions. He extended grace in that case, not the law.
No, he extended grace as soon as he saw his son.
But I don't see that attitude of humility or thankfulness to God reflected in what you write. I don't see that you have any need for God's rules in your life
Good! The law is for the wicked and the ungodly. I'm born again, I am in Him and He is in me. He IS my life. What rules, exactly, should I need in my life? What rules do YOU need to have in your life?
and that is not the attitude of someone who is thankful and loving towards the very God that saved him.
If someone saves your life, will you ask the guy for some rules you can follow in order to show your gratitude?
Exactly. Because they're fueled by pride and rebellion and ignorance about how holy and just God is. They only see it from their side, never from God's side.
Yes, and when we try to tell them how God sees things, we portray him as an angry judge.
The only people who fear an angry boss or a judge are the people who have angered him in the first place. Everyone knows they've done stuff to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off God. Their warped idea of love though is for God to let them go.
Actually, that's God's idea too. Jesus let the adulterous woman go. He said "go and sin no more" - do you think she never sinned again? If she went straight back to a life in whoredom, do you think Jesus would regret what He did? Barabbas, too, was let go. He represents us.
Even though they're career crimminals. If a judge just let a career crimminal go back out into the world to commit more crimes, because he was a loving person, what would you think of that judge?
Unlike a human judge's love, God's love actually transforms people.
Would you think He was just and doing his duty, which is to punish law breakers and uphold the law?
God is a father more than a judge. And He HAS judged sin. He did that on the cross. The punishment was laid on HIM.
What I'm saying is that He distances Himself from people who only wanted what they could get from Him. Jesus wanted people to take up their cross and follow Him. Remember what He said to the people who wanted to go home and get their affairs in order before coming to follow Him?
Yes, in order to FOLLOW Christ you would actually have to do all those tings and pick up your cross etc. But that's not the way we are supposed to follow Him. Because now, He has already picked up the cross, and we are DEAD. His burden is LIGHT and His yoke is EASY. Jesus IS good and DOES good, and He's never good to us in order that we shall do this or perform that or please him here or achieve somthing there. Jesus does good because of WHO HE IS, not because of what we deserve or are able to give in return. God is LOVE.
But a new building fund isn't the same as being a social outreach center.
That's my point - they will raise new buildings and walk right past the hobos and the beggars.
God has given you rules for how you can serve Him and live a life that is pleasing to Him and you want nothing to do with any of that. Is it the word "rules" you don't like?
I have nothing against rules per se, but I prefer
life. Christ didn't come to give us rules, but LIFE. And life is to KNOW HIM.
But I'll consider a rule if I run into a situation where I'd need it.
Then just tell others I do what God has commanded me to do. But don't be surprised if someone sees a discrepancy in your actions and what God has commanded people to do and not do, and then call you on it, not out of judgment, but out of love for your own well being.
Well, I never say God has commanded me to follow rules, so no worry
See? It's not about living for God or by the rules He has set down for your life, but living for yourself and doing what you please.
True, I do what I please. And what do I please? To do good. To worship the Lord. To share the good news.
But what rules, exactly, do you mean He has set down for my life? Jesus IS my life. Has God set down rules for Jesus?
If you're not living for God, you're living for yourself. It really is that black and white.
It's not just me and God, though. I have neighbours too. But I don't live FOR anything or anyone. I live IN the Lord.
To put it another way, I live "for" God in the same way that Adam and Eve did.
Oh I hope you're not holding up Adam and Eve as the pillars of living lives that are pleasing to God.
Oh yes, I most definately am! He saw that it was GOOD.
Didn't all this trouble start with them?
Yes, because they made the choice to eat from the law tree. They shouldn't have, and I won't do the same mistake.
Plus you have no way of proving the claim that the 10 Commandments would not make sense to Adam and Eve.
What should they need the ten commandments for?
They knew exactly what God expected them to do.
Yes. To be fruitful and multiply.
It's when they sat under a false teacher, Satan, that their troubles began.
Exactly. It was satan who made them aware of law and sin and nakedness.
Yeah, see that's the thing, from what you've written here, the fruits in your life don't look like good fruit.
What does it look like?
"Yes, and that's pretty much the problem."
A statement of faith or beliefs is hardly a problem.
It is, if you use it to measure and determine the faith of others. God has GIVEN each of us faith according to HIS OWN measure. Not according to a creed.
Well then your problem is the source material. The source material for the creeds is the Bible. They are not scripture, but they are scriptural.
Well, "he went and hanged himself" is straight out of scripture too, but that doesn't make it useful or even sensible.
He has defined Himself in His written word to mankind.
He has defined Himself in Christ, not in a book. In a person. The book describes God in many ways, but the only way to actually KNOW God, is to MEET Him.
Yes children must realize why they need a dad, it's part of having a complete understanding of the family unit and how things are supposed to work.
Why must a child realize why they have a dad and understand the family unit? Don't you let you kids be just kids? The fact that we understand family dynamics and whatnot when we grow older is a bonus, not a requirement for
being a child.
You can't compare a flawed human relationship with your earthly father with your Father in Heaven.
God Himself did.
if you love your Father in Heaven, you are not going to take His name in vain, you are not going to love anything more than Him, and look at that, by showing your love to your neighbor and your Father in Heaven in these ways and a few more, you have kept the 10 Commandments.
Maybe so, and maybe by not stealing I have also kept Egyptian law. I am as much a subject to Egyptian law as I am to the ten commandments.
And why did you do it? Not to get into Heaven or earn something from God, but becaue you love Him.
The point isn't to keep commandments, but to love.
I love, and the law has absolutely nothing to do with it.
The Bible tells us to be discerning. It tells us to be on the lookout for false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing. It tells us to also cast out our immoral brothers. It tells us to judge those within the church body. So everything that you think is so unfair that has happened to you here, is actually commanded by God in His written word. We can assume the best about people until we have reason to not believe they are who they say they are.
And you fear I may be dishonest about myself because I don't share you exact understanding of things - you can assume the best about me until it turns out we're not exactly the same. We disagree on MY use for the law, and you begin talking about immoral brothers and wolves in sheep's clothing...
Your posts have raised serious concerns with some people on this board, we are attempting to find out if our concerns are valid
Hehe! No offense, but I'm getting a laugh out of stuff like that.
All roads lead home then?
No. There are as many ways to Christ as there are people.
Universalism at it's finest.
Almost as fine as your sarcasm
