Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[holo]

I had to stop right there!

"Fundamentally flawed mixture of old and new covenant stuff..." ??? What is fundamentally flawed is your understanding. There is no flaw in the implementation of the covenants. The roles of the children of God is the same now as before the cross: obey and be blessed.

Actually, they're 100% OPPOSITES. In the old covenant, you would have to DO in order to be blessed. Nobody ever DID what was required to be blessed. In the new covenant, the deal is: believe, and be blessed.

The old covenant was about Israel's obedience, the new covenant is about Christ's obedience. The covenant is made in His blood, not in our effort.

Disobey and live under a curse. Except now, the punishment is deferred due to the mercy of God because of His Son, who is given every opportunity to build His church before the Day of Wrath.

No, if that was the case the ONLY difference between the old and the new covenant would be that Jesus had replaced the animal sacrifices.

I am proud to be called a servant of the Most High God AS WELL AS His child. We are called to be His slaves-in-love.

What's a slave-in-love?

But there are conditions to receive His benefits. We must be obedient to His Word.

Which says to believe in Him. To walk in faith instead of works. By grace instead of law.

We must spend time with Hima nd get to know Him. You cannot be "saved" and live any way you please.

Actually, it's when you ARE saved you can start living the way you do please, because when you're saved you receive the nature of God. I have the same attitude toward sin as God has. I hate sin.

(And just because you and I don't agree on whether or not A and B are sinful or not, doesn't change that fact. We both hate sin. None of us wants to sin. None of us defends sin.)

Those people that Jesus healed and raised up and forgave, He told, "Go and sin no more!" That is a condition

No, it's not. When Jesus forgave the adulterous woman, was it on the condition that she never again, as long as she lived, didn't commit a sin again? NO. Rather, "go and sin no more" is impossible unless you're forgiven FIRST.

a rule, a regulation...and it's darned hard, isn't it?

If it was like that, it wouldn't be hard. It would be impossible. And it is indeed impossible for man to be saved. It takes a miracle.

It takes work and dedication and real diligence in serving Him.

No, it doesn't. If it took that, then at least some of the jews of Jesus' day would surely have made it. Don't you see that God's standard is HIGHER than YOU could even dare to dream to acheive? How low do you think His standard is? How poor is His holiness, that you think you can actually reach it with diligence and dedication?

As if your discipline, or mine, could reach up to God. He created heaven and earth, and you expect to perform some work that's actually impressive to the Lord?

Salvation, and walking in Christ, takes HIS POWER, not your dedication or anything else you could possibly try to offer God. HE created YOU, wove you in your mother's womb, and YOU are offering HIM your help?

 

[Zecryphon]

"No, actually, NOBODY in that day understood the use for the law, and certainly not the jews. They thought it was given for them to be made righteous by."

You are making an absolute statement here. How do you know that the Jews did not understand the purpose of the law?

"All of that, plus more. They thought they were already righteous, and that the Messiah would be some sort of military leader."

Yes, they did believe that messiah would crush Israel's oppressors that's true. Since Christ did not do that in their opinion, that is one of the big reasons they do not believe He was their messiah and are still waiting for their messiah to come. But if they believed they were righteous, they would not have been performing sacrifices to cover their sins. Because they knew that people who sinned are not righteous.

"I guess that whatever standard I would've measured myself against, I would've failed miserably. The mosaic law had nothing to do with it in my case."

Okay, but the question remains unanswered. Which standard did you use? Since you did not use the law of God as you have admitted up above, you must have used one of your own design. Therefore, you did not come to faith in Christ because you were made aware of your own transgressions of God's law. So when you came ot faith you did not come to Christ seeing yourself as God sees you, a wicked sinner who needs salvation.


"Not at all. The punishment was laid on Jesus. He died for us while we were still sinners. God isn't angry with sinners, he LOVES sinners! That's the gospel in a nutshell."

Actually, that's heresy in a nutshell. You have completely ignored God's righteous anger and wrath that we have earned with our transgressions of His law. It is true, that God desires that no one perish, that's why He sent Jesus to take the penalty for our actions, which is death, remember the wages of sin is death. The penalty of the law is what was paid, the law was not removed. You are espousing universalism here. Here's what you're saying "Come to Jesus, it doesn't matter why, ask Him into your heart, then do whatever you want, it doesn't matter because in the end we all get to go to Heaven. That's a false gospel, an idol. I hope for your sake though you are right and it does work that way. I haven't seen anything in scripture though to indicate that it does, however.

"We all get a choice, I believe. Justice, or grace. If people choose justice, they will receive justice."


So you admit then that people's actions will determine where they go after they die? It's clear to me that all want grace, but not the submission to God and His plan that comes with that gift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The fear of Hell is not what should drive a person to repentance. Sorrow for sins against God is what should drive a person straight into the arms of Jesus.

"The bible doesn't say that, or demonstrate that. It demonstrates a multitude of people coming to Christ for a multitude of reasons."

What does repentance mean to you? Because I think it's clear we're working with two different definitions here. It does not show people coming to Christ for a multitude of reasons. People had faith in a messiah who was sent to earth to die for their sins. Not to solve their problems or cure their sicknesses or to be the personal power source to help them get through the week to come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
People do come to us for those reasons, but that should not be the main reason they come to us.

"Why not?"

Um because there are other places they can get fed. Government social programs, family etc.

"Why shouldn't a hungry person come to us for the sole purpose of being fed?"

We can feed them, but we don't want to bring them to faith in Christ for the sole purpose of feeding them. That's like a bait and switch routine. Bring them in with the food so we can get them saved. Jesus Himself knew the danger of this. That's why He avoided the crowds that were following Him simply because He fed them. He didn't want people coming to Him to get their worldly needs met, He wanted people to come to Him to get their spiritual needs met.

To bring someone in with the lure of food or healthcare or some other kind of social help and then tell them basically 'Yeah, it's true you don't know anything about your fallen nature or how you've sinned against God, but don't worry about it, God loves you, He sent Jesus to die for you and if you just ask Him into your heart, you'll be good to go when you die.' Spreading the gospel that way produces one thing and one thing only, false converts. We have enough of those filling our pews as it is, we don't need more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
He preached a gospel of repentance and faith, not a social gospel of feeding the hungry and curing the ill.

"When he talked about doing the right thing, though, as in living righteously, he did say to feed the poor, visit those in prison etc etc."

Yes He did He also said that people would know us by our fruits. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, helping the sick, these are all evidence of our new hearts and natures we have received when we came to faith in Christ. But you don't need silly rules like that. You have said that repeatedly because you have Jesus you don't need to live a righteous life that is pleasing to God.

"In fact, love is MORE important than faith."

Only if you believe in a works-righteous faith system. Whereby doing good deeds and caring for others is what gets you into Heaven and not faith through grace.

"What would you have told the dying thief on the cross?"

I make it a rule to never assume the role of Jesus and speak for Him.

"Jesus didn't give him a lecture. The thief most likely had no idea Jesus would save him at all."

Really? Then why did the thief say "remember me when you come into your kingdom?" I think he had a pretty good idea who he was talking to.

"He simply believed. Hardly a high score according to this or that creed, and the Way of the Master people would surely have considered him a lost case. But Jesus didn't."

Oh so now it comes out. You hate the Way of the Master, which is modelled after the evangelism style of Jesus Himself. No one has mentioned adherence to a creed in this discussion, yet here you are throwing it out there for the second or third time now. Why is that? Are you getting frustrated?

"Why can't we accept the people Jesus accepts?"

Here it is! A guilt trip! LOL Classic! No one has said 'I reject you because of your sins.' No one has said that, but that's automatically where some people have to go, when they get uncomfortable with what they're hearing. They always have to try and shift the focus from themselves onto others. I do accept them and accept them for what they are, sinners in need of salvation. All people like myself want is for people to understand the real reason they need a savior and it's not for the social reasons you're putting forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"That's like as if the son who didn't run off, told the prodigal son that "you know, in reality, you can't just walk in here and TRULY be your father's son again. You must understand exactly what you did wrong and the dynamics of his forgiveness. Now let me explain to you...""

That's pretty much the attitude he had though. But not towards the prodigal son, towards the father. That's why that son went to the father and said "why are you throwing a feast for him and welcoming him back with open arms after what he did to you" and that's when the father explained to the son, that everything the father had, the son had also because the father chose to bless his son with those things.

"And that's what you are doing to me, too."

With your permission. You wanted to be judged by your posts and the things you say and not self-identify as a Christian and have people judge you based solely upon that. If you don't like the criticism or judgment, don't invite it.

"I run about in our Father's house, happy to be free, to be a son, a heir to all our Father's riches. But you insist I didn't come back in the correct way - I did come back to my father, but I really should have understood this and thought about that and made sure I had this motivation and walked in that manner. THEN, perhaps, would I have been worthy of my sonship."

I just want you to understand your real need, that's all if you say you do, I believe you.

"But the fact is, you don't have to worry about people's salvation like that. You don't have to measure their motives. Instead, be glad that we ARE you brothers and sisters. The Lord is able to keep both of us."

I worry about people who may be false converts, because just like God wishes that no one perish, neither do I. When I get indications that I may be in the presence of a false convert I act. I don't just sit back and say "oh well you came to faith without a proper understanding of why you needed salvation, but hey as long as you asked Jesus into your heart, it's all good." Sorry I care a bit more about people than to let them think that they're going to Heaven when they may in fact not be, because they are not soundly saved. I can't just sit back and watch someone ignorantly walk straight into the gates of Hell without offering some kind of warning to them.

"And yet, you and so many others try to do the Spirit's job..."

We don't, that's just the way you take it.

"No matter HOW God does it, it's still God who does it. And hey, maybe I should be your teacher? "

I will sit under you when you demonstrate an understanding of Christianity. So far you haven't as you are espousing universalism which is a heresy.

"No, I simply don't go there anymore. There was a time, though, when I thought these people had authority over me (they were awfully good at quoting bible verses, esp. from the OT, but their attitude absolutely SUCKED), and let them abuse me. Because I believed the LIE that they were speaking on God's behalf."

I'm glad that you now have a church home that accepts you and loves you for who you are.

"For my part, it's not about following this or that commandment, but rather about living out my true nature - Christ in me. When I do good, it's because Christ is expressing himself through me, not because I've decided to follow commandments."

You don't decide to follow the rules though. It's not a conscious decision you make. It's automatic because your new nature dictates it to you. You want to do it, you don't do it grudgingly because someone told you you had to.

"I don't do anything to please God, either. Again, it's Jesus in and through me. Not me."

Holo, I know that you don't do anything to please God. I see it in your words, which is what you wish to be judged by. So yes, I'm concerned that you may be a false convert. Notice I didn't say you were, but that you may be.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Originally Posted by Floatingaxe
I had to stop right there!

"Fundamentally flawed mixture of old and new covenant stuff..." ??? What is fundamentally flawed is your understanding. There is no flaw in the implementation of the covenants. The role of the children of God is the same now as before the cross: obey and be blessed.

Actually, they're 100% OPPOSITES. In the old covenant, you would have to DO in order to be blessed. Nobody ever DID what was required to be blessed. In the new covenant, the deal is: believe, and be blessed.

The old covenant was about Israel's obedience, the new covenant is about Christ's obedience. The covenant is made in His blood, not in our effort.

God hasn't changed. He still desires us to obey and receive His blessing. We are Israel. We are just as disobedient as Israel ever was. Now we have a personal access to god through Jesus, and His indwelling Holy Spirit that helps us to live righteously without us having to make sacrifices.

Yes, Jesus gained us that access, but we need to live according to God's will in His Word. The same blessing and cursing is in effect today. Follow Christ and live. Abandon Him and His precepts and be cursed.

Disobey and live under a curse. Except now, the punishment is deferred due to the mercy of God because of His Son, who is given every opportunity to build His church before the Day of Wrath.

No, if that was the case the ONLY difference between the old and the new covenant would be that Jesus had replaced the animal sacrifices.

Jesus opened up the way to God for each one of us--personally. The Jews never had that before. God has not changed, however. His wrath is waiting.[

I am proud to be called a servant of the Most High God AS WELL AS His child. We are called to be His slaves-in-love.

What's a slave-in-love?

2 Peter 1:1
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
Jude 1:1
This letter is from Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James.I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ.
James 1:1
This letter is from James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:1
This letter is from Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I have been sent to proclaim faith to those God has chosen and to teach them to know the truth that shows them how to live godly lives.


So pleased to count myself among these men.

But there are conditions to receive His benefits. We must be obedient to His Word.

Which says to believe in Him. To walk in faith instead of works. By grace instead of law.

Yes, and obey Him...are you having a hard time with that concept? We have a responsibility to God for how we conduct our lives.

We must spend time with Him and get to know Him. You cannot be "saved" and live any way you please.

Actually, it's when you ARE saved you can start living the way you do please, because when you're saved you receive the nature of God. I have the same attitude toward sin as God has. I hate sin.

(And just because you and I don't agree on whether or not A and B are sinful or not, doesn't change that fact. We both hate sin. None of us wants to sin. None of us defends sin.)

We, as brothers and sisters in Christ are in His Body, and we know what sin is and isn't. We are to be in agreement about that. There are benign activities that are personally discerned, such as eating meat and drinking wine, etc., but in matters of sexual purity, there is a line, and we all need to be in agreement with that or there is something amiss.

We cannot live any way we please, because our natural man is at war with our new man in Christ. Don't fool yourself. the Word talks about this.

Those people that Jesus healed and raised up and forgave, He told, "Go and sin no more!" That is a condition.

No, it's not. When Jesus forgave the adulterous woman, was it on the condition that she never again, as long as she lived, didn't commit a sin again? NO. Rather, "go and sin no more" is impossible unless you're forgiven FIRST.

I said that already. Those Jesus forgave He often admonished to go and sin no more. He is admonishing us also. We have a responsibility to live righteously. It takes effort and daily laying down of one's own way and will in favour of God's.

a rule, a regulation...and it's darned hard, isn't it?

IIf it was like that, it wouldn't be hard. It would be impossible. And it is indeed impossible for man to be saved. It takes a miracle.

It IS like that. It is hard--often--to lay down your life to Christ daily, and follow His will. That is part of growing in Christ. Yes, our salvation is a miracle, a personal miracle all our own.

It takes work and dedication and real diligence in serving Him.

No, it doesn't. If it took that, then at least some of the jews of Jesus' day would surely have made it. Don't you see that God's standard is HIGHER than YOU could even dare to dream to acheive? How low do you think His standard is? How poor is His holiness, that you think you can actually reach it with diligence and dedication?

As if your discipline, or mine, could reach up to God. He created heaven and earth, and you expect to perform some work that's actually impressive to the Lord?

Salvation, and walking in Christ, takes HIS POWER, not your dedication or anything else you could possibly try to offer God. HE created YOU, wove you in your mother's womb, and YOU are offering HIM your help?

It takes the power of God working in me as I submit to Him, to achieve great things for God and to become His righteous disciple. We have to offer only ourselves to Him. It is our reasonable sacrifice/service.

Romans 12:1
And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him.

 

[holo]

You are making an absolute statement here. How do you know that the Jews did not understand the purpose of the law?

I think nobody understood the true purpose of the law until the Spirit had come. Jesus delivered a lot of seemingly confusing teachings on the law, and he said that only when the Spirit came, they would understand. In Jesus' day, they would ask him what's the greatest commandment and so forth, what they must DO to be saved. The secret, as it were, was that salvation was actually by faith. That was made more clear as Paul was charged with preaching the gospel.

But if they believed they were righteous, they would not have been performing sacrifices to cover their sins. Because they knew that people who sinned are not righteous.

But these sacrifices were supposed to make them righteous, if only temporarily. We, who are righteous 24/7, obviously don't need such sacrifices, or the law at large, which is for the wicked and the ungodly.

Okay, but the question remains unanswered. Which standard did you use? Since you did not use the law of God as you have admitted up above, you must have used one of your own design. Therefore, you did not come to faith in Christ because you were made aware of your own transgressions of God's law.

I only wish it would have only been that I'd broken the clear ten commandments... I was wicked.

So when you came ot faith you did not come to Christ seeing yourself as God sees you, a wicked sinner who needs salvation.

I did most definately see myself as a sinner. In fact, I thought I had out-sinned God's grace. However, God did NOT see me as a wicked sinner. He saw me as His child, and treated me accordingly.

Like the prodigal son's father.

Actually, that's heresy in a nutshell. You have completely ignored God's righteous anger and wrath that we have earned with our transgressions of His law.

I don't ignore it, I just recognize the fact that the punishment was laid on HIM.

Here's what you're saying "Come to Jesus, it doesn't matter why, ask Him into your heart, then do whatever you want, it doesn't matter because in the end we all get to go to Heaven. That's a false gospel, an idol. I hope for your sake though you are right and it does work that way. I haven't seen anything in scripture though to indicate that it does, however.

That's not what I'm saying.

I doesn't matter exactly why you come to our Father - how many quustions did the father ask his prodigal son about WHY he had come back? None. Just as, if your child was lost for years and then suddenly reappeared, you wouldn't start interrogating him about his intentions.

How do you think the prodigal son acted when he'd come home? After being loved and received and celebrated like that? Of course he could have decided to waste it all again, but by far most every single sane person would rather serve their Father with joy.

We serve and do good because we ARE saved, not in order to BECOME saved.

So you admit then that people's actions will determine where they go after they die?

If they choose justice, yes.

It's clear to me that all want grace, but not the submission to God and His plan that comes with that gift.

I agree. It's always the most religious people who have the biggest problems with grace. They would rather earn salvation.

What does repentance mean to you? Because I think it's clear we're working with two different definitions here. It does not show people coming to Christ for a multitude of reasons. People had faith in a messiah who was sent to earth to die for their sins. Not to solve their problems or cure their sicknesses or to be the personal power source to help them get through the week to come.

Why not both? It's not like I must choose between coming to God for health, or for forgiveness. A LOT of people came to Jesus to be healed. And they were.

Um because there are other places they can get fed. Government social programs, family etc.

They're not always sufficient though.

We can feed them, but we don't want to bring them to faith in Christ for the sole purpose of feeding them.

We should feed people for the purpose of feeding them. No strings attached.

Yes He did He also said that people would know us by our fruits. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, helping the sick, these are all evidence of our new hearts and natures we have received when we came to faith in Christ. But you don't need silly rules like that.

True. I don't need a rule to tell me to feed a hungry person. Do you?

You have said that repeatedly because you have Jesus you don't need to live a righteous life that is pleasing to God.

No, I've never said that.

Only if you believe in a works-righteous faith system. Whereby doing good deeds and caring for others is what gets you into Heaven and not faith through grace.

Love for my neighbour isn't supposed to get ME into heaven. It's for he benefit of my neighbour. It has nothing to do with me.

I make it a rule to never assume the role of Jesus and speak for Him.

No offense, but I think you're breaking that rule regularly.

Really? Then why did the thief say "remember me when you come into your kingdom?" I think he had a pretty good idea who he was talking to.

For the same reason I called out to Jesus years ago. I had no faith I would actually be saved, I was just hoping that maybe, just maybe, he wouldn't punish me quite as hard as I deserved. If the thief believed he would join Christ in His kingdom, he wouldn't ask him to remember him.

Oh so now it comes out. You hate the Way of the Master, which is modelled after the evangelism style of Jesus Himself.

I don't hate it. I just mislike and disagree with what I've seen from them. Their "style" of evangelism seems to revolve around guilt. Jesus appears more as a way out, a safety net, than aperson who has already reconciled man and God.

No one has mentioned adherence to a creed in this discussion, yet here you are throwing it out there for the second or third time now. Why is that? Are you getting frustrated?

Yes I am. Because there is a sort of creed behind so much of what's being said here. You could list the requirements you believe are there to be saved. It would be, in effect, a creed. For example, faith in Christ isn't enough. No, he must be the right Christ, and you must believe for the right reasons and intentions. And unless you believe exactly like this or that, your salvation must be questioned.

Here it is! A guilt trip! LOL Classic! No one has said 'I reject you because of your sins.' No one has said that, but that's automatically where some people have to go, when they get uncomfortable with what they're hearing. They always have to try and shift the focus from themselves onto others. I do accept them and accept them for what they are, sinners in need of salvation. All people like myself want is for people to understand the real reason they need a savior and it's not for the social reasons you're putting forth.

It has nothing to do with a guilt trip. There are so many people out there, alienated from the chruch, some of them have even rejected Jesus, because they stille believe Jesus is as demanding as you are. They didn't believe in the correct way, they didn't say the right thing, they didn't have ther right theology, whatever you'd like to point your finger at. They wer perfectly saved untile christians came and ruined it all for them. With this exact kind of stuff that you're talking about. No, you DON'T accept them for who they are. They are children of the most high, but you say "I'm not so sure about that" - as if it was even your task to begin with, to be God's police.

You are acting exactly like the son who stayed home, and like the workers who had been there all day and got angry with their Lord for paying the late workers the same.

With your permission. You wanted to be judged by your posts and the things you say and not self-identify as a Christian and have people judge you based solely upon that. If you don't like the criticism or judgment, don't invite it.

Again, it's not the fact that you evaluate my opionions, it's HOW you evaluate them.

I just want you to understand your real need

Exactly... what would you have told the prodigal son, had you been there? Would you want to make sure he understood his real needs? Would you tell his father, perhaps, that "I'm not so sure about this son of yours..."?

Sorry I care a bit more about people than to let them think that they're going to Heaven when they may in fact not be, because they are not soundly saved. I can't just sit back and watch someone ignorantly walk straight into the gates of Hell without offering some kind of warning to them.

And therein lies the insanity. That people are supposedly walking straight into hell if they don't have youre exact understanding of, and motivation for, coming to Christ.

Have you searched God's riches? Do you know the depths of His grace, the extent of His love? No. Not even close (and neither am I). But you act as if you do. Where's your trust in GOD? And in His ability to tend to His own? Why do you trust so much in you own understanding of things?

I will sit under you when you demonstrate an understanding of Christianity.

But that would never happen until I fully agree with the understanding you already have.

You don't decide to follow the rules though. It's not a conscious decision you make. It's automatic because your new nature dictates it to you. You want to do it, you don't do it grudgingly because someone told you you had to.

But it's not about rules at all! It's about love.

Holo, I know that you don't do anything to please God. I see it in your words, which is what you wish to be judged by. So yes, I'm concerned that you may be a false convert. Notice I didn't say you were, but that you may be.

The reason I don't do anything for God is that I CAN'T do anything for God, and I don't NEED to do anything for God. I have nothing to offer the creator of the univers. He doesn't need my help. HE chooses to make use of ME, though.

False convert... I'm amazed that you guys are actually for real.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The reason I don't do anything for God is that I CAN'T do anything for God, and I don't NEED to do anything for God. I have nothing to offer the creator of the univers. He doesn't need my help. HE chooses to make use of ME, though.

False convert... I'm amazed that you guys are actually for real.

Your rightful sacrifice for God is to give yourself to Him--totally. He wants that. He needs your obedience and your availability, and yet you refuse? If you refuse to obey Him and be available for His use, then He will just go to the next available Christian, who will receive the reward that was destined for you.

It is a legitimate concern regarding false conversion.

 

[holo]

God hasn't changed. He still desires us to obey and receive His blessing.

And we ARE blessed with every blessing. We just need to receive them.

WE are blessed because of HIS obedience.

We are Israel.

I'm not. I'm a gentile.

We are just as disobedient as Israel ever was.

I'm not.

Yes, Jesus gained us that access, but we need to live according to God's will in His Word.

Which is to live in faith.

The same blessing and cursing is in effect today. Follow Christ and live. Abandon Him and His precepts and be cursed.

It's not "Him and His precepts", it's HIM. A person, not teacher with a bunch of rules. God has NEVER blessed me for keeping a commandment, because
a) that's just not where it's at, and
b) even if I had managed to keep some commandments, I would still be guilty of violating the law. You can't pick and choose commanments. Either you're under the ENTIRE law, or you're not under the law.

God has never cursed me, either.

His wrath is waiting.

For what? For whom?

Yes, and obey Him...are you having a hard time with that concept?

No, only with the idea that obedience means compliance with the Law, or some law that christians constructed.

We, as brothers and sisters in Christ are in His Body, and we know what sin is and isn't. We are to be in agreement about that. There are benign activities that are personally discerned, such as eating meat and drinking wine, etc., but in matters of sexual purity, there is a line, and we all need to be in agreement with that or there is something amiss.

Why can't we have different opinions on that? What's the actual problem with Norway defining marriage like this, and Sweden defining it differently?

And come one - if WINE and MEAT and FEASTS, very visible things, are left for the individual to decid on, why should something so hidden and private as whether you touch or not, need some sort of universal rule?

I said that already. Those Jesus forgave He often admonished to go and sin no more.

Admonishing not to sin is one thing. Saying that it's a requirement for salvation is quite different.

It takes effort and daily laying down of one's own way and will in favour of God's.

It does. The flesh tends to want to restrain itself and be pious and holy, you'd rather deserve salvation than be granted it. Because then you have something to boast about. Your flesh would love to define salvation as anything YOU do and that YOU are living up to - so you can say that OTHERS, like me, don't measure up.

It IS like that. It is hard--often--to lay down your life to Christ daily, and follow His will.

But Jesus gives you REST. You're not resting, you're preoccupied with sin and morality. And not only your own sin and morality, but also mine!

It takes the power of God working in me as I submit to Him, to achieve great things for God and to become His righteous disciple.

You ARE righteous.

We have to offer only ourselves to Him. It is our reasonable sacrifice/service.

It is reasonable. But you don't seem to agree with that, because you keep adding stuff like "...and refraining from masturbation!"

 

[Floatingaxe]

We are Israel.

I'm not. I'm a gentile.

I am also gentile. We are now spiritual Israel.

We are just as disobedient as Israel ever was.

I'm not.

You most certainly are. Don't kid yourself.

 

[holo]

Your rightful sacrifice for God is to give yourself to Him--totally. He wants that. He needs your obedience and your availability, and yet you refuse? If you refuse to obey Him and be available for His use, then He will just go to the next available Christian, who will receive the reward that was destined for you.

It is a legitimate concern regarding false conversion.

I guess I can only feel for your concern. You must be one sorry lady, having so many conversions to be concerned about.

Yes, I give myself to Him. Deny myself. But you suggest I do the opposite. Imposing all sorts of regulations on yourself isn't denying yourself. It's the opposite. It's about YOU doing this and achieving that. It has nothing to do with denial, it's just a form of religion. And like any other form of religion, it's useless and unimpressive and not what God is looking for.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Admonishing not to sin is one thing. Saying that it's a requirement for salvation is quite different.

Where are you getting the impression that I am preaching that false idea? You are misinterpreting. Do you not understand consecration?

 

[Floatingaxe]

I guess I can only feel for your concern. You must be one sorry lady, having so many conversions to be concerned about.

Yes, I give myself to Him. Deny myself. But you suggest I do the opposite. Imposing all sorts of regulations on yourself isn't denying yourself. It's the opposite. It's about YOU doing this and achieving that. It has nothing to do with denial, it's just a form of religion. And like any other form of religion, it's useless and unimpressive and not what God is looking for.

It's crazy what you attribute to my words! I am not religious, as Christianity is not a religion. You are simply reading your own bias into my posts.

God is looking for people who obey Him because they love Him and His Word, and want to be holy as He is holy, which is what he wants for us. He wants to bless us with His abundance and to crown our efforts with success. We are salt and light in this world and He wants us to be effective as His army against evil and in bringing souls into His kingdom. That is our role in life.

 

[Zecryphon]

"But these sacrifices were supposed to make them righteous, if only temporarily."

If that's true, then why would they be trusting in a future messiah? They could just keep going with their blood, grain and burnt offerings.

"We, who are righteous 24/7, obviously don't need such sacrifices, or the law at large, which is for the wicked and the ungodly."

Luther said that "the law is a curb and a guide." In my opinion it brings the knowledge of sin to the unsaved and guides the lives of those who are saved so that they act in a way that is pleasing to God. Think about it this way. If you were about to get hit by a bus or a train and someone pushed you out of the way and saved your life. You would be grateful right? I sure would. You would be asking that person 'is there anything I can do for you?' You'd do anything to show them how thankful you were, wouldn't you? That's how we are to act towards God. We follow the law to show Him that we are truly thankful for what He has done for us. So we live a life that is pleasing to Him as good servants.

"I only wish it would have only been that I'd broken the clear ten commandments... I was wicked."

Run yourself through the 10 Commandments and it will become clear.

"I did most definately see myself as a sinner. In fact, I thought I had out-sinned God's grace. However, God did NOT see me as a wicked sinner. He saw me as His child, and treated me accordingly."

No, God saw you as a wicked sinner. That's why He sent Jesus, so that you would not have to pay the fines your crimes against Him had incurred. It is after you got saved, however that happened, that He then saw you as His child, not while you were still in your sins did He see you that way.

"I don't ignore it, I just recognize the fact that the punishment was laid on HIM."

Very good. But that does not release you from the guide the law is. Following it will not save you, but following it will show your thankfulness towards God and be a living witness to the world. If people see the change in you, they will become curious about what brought it on and ask you about it. This is a perfect chance to witness to them and plant a seed that the Holy Spirit will water and grow and use to bear good fruit in them as well.

"I doesn't matter exactly why you come to our Father - how many quustions did the father ask his prodigal son about WHY he had come back? None."

Because the father could see the brokeness and the contrition on the part of the son. He knew the son understood what he had done wrong. This is a case where grace is warranted. Like I said before you decide which one is neccessary based upon the circumstances. Just like Jesus did. He extended grace to the lepers and the blind people but hit the rich young ruler and the Samaritan woman at the well, with the law.

"How do you think the prodigal son acted when he'd come home? After being loved and received and celebrated like that? Of course he could have decided to waste it all again, but by far most every single sane person would rather serve their Father with joy."

You have to go back to why the prodigal son decided to return home. Because he realized that he had been a fool. He had a revealtion. How? Who knows? But when he went to the father, he went knowing he deserved nothing. He humbled himself before his father. That is what we must do when we come to Jesus for salvation. We must humble ourselves before God.

"I agree. It's always the most religious people who have the biggest problems with grace. They would rather earn salvation."

Um, I don't know about that. True, guys like Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, etc. have problems with submission. But I've seen the same attitude in the world. Everyone thinks they're a good person, then when you use the law to show them they're not, they still think that God will let them into Heaven. It's completely illogical.

"Why not both? It's not like I must choose between coming to God for health, or for forgiveness. A LOT of people came to Jesus to be healed. And they were."

And Jesus knew that and distanced Himself from those who wanted merely the things He could give them that would make their earthly lives better.

"They're not always sufficient though."

What makes a church sufficient then? They're horribly underfunded.

"We should feed people for the purpose of feeding them. No strings attached."

But we don't do we? We always have an ulterior motive it seems. Like a gospel tract attached to that sandwich or soda. Or a business card for the church with directions on how to find us again. That's the bait and switch I was talking about earlier.

"True. I don't need a rule to tell me to feed a hungry person. Do you?"

No, I do it because of the new nature I have received.

"No, I've never said that."

Yes you have. You have said now that you are saved you can do whatever you want. Here's a statement you made in post # 299: "I don't do anything to please God, either. Again, it's Jesus in and through me. Not me." Or this one from post # 301: "Actually, it's when you ARE saved you can start living the way you do please, because when you're saved you receive the nature of God. I have the same attitude toward sin as God has. I hate sin."

See? It's not about living for God or by the rules He has set down for your life, but living for yourself and doing what you please. These are the messages that send up red flags and rightly so.

"Love for my neighbour isn't supposed to get ME into heaven. It's for he benefit of my neighbour. It has nothing to do with me."

Good to see you don't believe in the works-righteous faith systems.

"No offense, but I think you're breaking that rule regularly."

I know you do. You think that about anyone who has the audacity to disagree with you.

"For the same reason I called out to Jesus years ago. I had no faith I would actually be saved, I was just hoping that maybe, just maybe, he wouldn't punish me quite as hard as I deserved. If the thief believed he would join Christ in His kingdom, he wouldn't ask him to remember him."

So what assurance do you have that you actually are saved?

"I don't hate it. I just mislike and disagree with what I've seen from them. Their "style" of evangelism seems to revolve around guilt. Jesus appears more as a way out, a safety net, than aperson who has already reconciled man and God."

You misunderstand the message. They don't lay a guilt trip on anyone. They present the law, which brings about the knowledge of sin, the Holy Spirit then convicts the person in their heart of their wrong doing and then the person is left alone to decide what to do next. They never push for a decision on the street like alot of evangelists and most modern-day churches. Have you read any of their books or watched any of their videos? I would suggest Hell's Best Kept Secret, that book explains this stuff very well.

"Yes I am. Because there is a sort of creed behind so much of what's being said here. You could list the requirements you believe are there to be saved. It would be, in effect, a creed."

A creed is a statement of beliefs, nothing more. Look at the three ecumenical creeds in Christendom today. they're not a list of rules of what you must do to be saved, but a staement of faith and beliefs.

"For example, faith in Christ isn't enough. No, he must be the right Christ,"

Well yeah. Faith in a false Christ saves no one.

"and you must believe for the right reasons and intentions. And unless you believe exactly like this or that, your salvation must be questioned."

No, you must recognize why you need a savior. This is really simple stuff. Compare yourself with the law, recognize that you have broken the law and deserve God's wrath, then you will see yourself as God sees you, then you should come to faith. If you don't have a proper understanding of this stuff you should not be making a decision with eternal ramifications.

"It has nothing to do with a guilt trip. There are so many people out there, alienated from the chruch, some of them have even rejected Jesus, because they stille believe Jesus is as demanding as you are. They didn't believe in the correct way, they didn't say the right thing, they didn't have ther right theology, whatever you'd like to point your finger at. They wer perfectly saved untile christians came and ruined it all for them."

A Christian can not ruin another Christian's salvation. If you are saved nothing can separate you from God. But the question is, are you soundly saved or a false convert.

"With this exact kind of stuff that you're talking about. No, you DON'T accept them for who they are. They are children of the most high, but you say "I'm not so sure about that" - as if it was even your task to begin with, to be God's police."

It is my job as a servant of God spread the truth of the gospel and to correct people's misconceptions about it. To teach it rightly. The modern day church in America has completely mangled the gospel message. Turn on any broadcast from TBN or any mega-church in America. It's not sin, repentance and faith in Christ you hear being preached. It's a social, tickle the itching ears, tell the people they're good and to ask Jesus into their hearts, with no explanation as to why they would need to do that, gospel.

"You are acting exactly like the son who stayed home, and like the workers who had been there all day and got angry with their Lord for paying the late workers the same."

If that were true you'd have no problem with me and what I'm saying because I'd be at home and not out in the world talking to you. So you're statement is false, because I'm out in the world and toiling in the fields. You just happen to have a problem with my methods and that's fine.

"Again, it's not the fact that you evaluate my opionions, it's HOW you evaluate them."

How would you like them evaluated? Do I have to put on the kid gloves to talk to you or can I talk to you like an adult?

"Exactly... what would you have told the prodigal son, had you been there? Would you want to make sure he understood his real needs? Would you tell his father, perhaps, that "I'm not so sure about this son of yours..."?"

The difference in that story and what is going on here is that the people in that story were face to face. We don't have that luxury here. We deal with what we read and unfortunately read attitudes and motives, into what we read here. Everyone does it, you try not to, but you just can't get away from it. So since the people in that story were face to face, the father could see the brokeness and contrition of his son. He didn't need to hit him with the law, the brokeness was apparent. That's why he showed him grace instead. Like I've said before, in a face to face situation you assess which one is neccessary. We can't do that here.

"And therein lies the insanity. That people are supposedly walking straight into hell if they don't have youre exact understanding of, and motivation for, coming to Christ."

If they don't understand how they have transgressed the law and why they need a savior and that they have to take up their cross and follow Jesus and what that means, then yes I will tell them. That's not insanity, that's love.

"Have you searched God's riches? Do you know the depths of His grace, the extent of His love? No. Not even close (and neither am I). But you act as if you do."

And I have no problem that you think that about me. I don't get all butt-hurt about it and cry judgmental attitude and foul. You can think whatever you want about me, I don't care. But what I want you to think about is everything we've talked about here and reflect upon it. That's all.

"Where's your trust in GOD? And in His ability to tend to His own? Why do you trust so much in you own understanding of things?"

I trust in what He has revealed to me.


"But that would never happen until I fully agree with the understanding you already have."

That will happen when you understand the core doctrines. I don't see that you do.

"But it's not about rules at all! It's about love."

One way you show your parents your love for them by doing what they tell you to do. That's one way Christians show their love to God, by doing what He tells us to do. You for some reason have a major problem with that. You think you don't need to do anything because you're in Christ. That's not true.

"The reason I don't do anything for God is that I CAN'T do anything for God, and I don't NEED to do anything for God."

You can do things for God. You can follow His rules for your life out of love. You can't do anything to earn your salvation by following rules, that's true. But you show love for Him and what He has done for you by acting according to His standards for our lives. It's called growing in the faith and maturing. It's called growing in holiness and is part of the process of sanctification.

"I have nothing to offer the creator of the univers. He doesn't need my help. HE chooses to make use of ME, though."

You don't understand showing love to God through your own actions towards Him. I pray one day you will. It's not to earn salvation, it's to show your thankfulness for salvation.

"False convert... I'm amazed that you guys are actually for real."

Again, I have never said that you were in fact one, only that you could be one. I'm sure you are amazed that people like me are for real, because apparently you've never been hit with this kind of honesty and in your face, confront you in your sin approach. God be with you Holo. I am now going to be weaning myself off of this topic. We seem to be going over the same material repeatedly. We know what each other believes. I don't really see a need for further conversation on this topic. I will pose no new questions to you but will answer your next post, if you choose to send one.

 

[Zecryphon]

Where are you getting the impression that I am preaching that false idea? You are misinterpreting. Do you not understand consecration?

I don't think he does. I don't think he understands sanctification or growing in holiness either. But in time he will learn. We all do.

 

[Dyin2live]

I have read many of your posts and arguments. Let me say one thing, they are ignorant, and judgmental. How can you declare masturbation as a sin when the bible never says it is? Why do you guys always associate masturbation with lust? I definitely can do so without even one lustful though of another woman. Before I was born again (last year) I always accompanied the act of masturbation with lustful thoughts and usually pornographic material. But since i have been born again, I have been given the ability to touch without one lustful thought! Shame on those of you who are making up false things about God's word, judging others, and mocking others. I can't seem to find the verse, but it tells us not to argue with each other also. This is what bothers me as a believer, the other members of the church are so judgmental, they don't show much kindness, they act like (sorry to say)
biggotts (don't know how to spell it lol) and can easily make a non-believer decide not to follow God. Is this the kind of behavior you want the non-believers to see? The word "Christian" means little Christ. I think some of us need to act more like it. By the way, how about we get back on topic.

Sorry if I seemed a little harsh.
Also, Im not declaring the act of masturbation to be rite or wrong.
Im just saying the bible doens't mention it, and if it was so important I think God would have mentioned it somewhere. Remember, there is nothing new under the sun. People masturbated back in the Bible days also.

 

[holo]

I am also gentile. We are now spiritual Israel.

What's "spiritual Israel"?

 

[holo]

Where are you getting the impression that I am preaching that false idea? You are misinterpreting. Do you not understand consecration?

con·se·cra·tion /ˌkɒnsɪˈkreɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-si-krey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the act of consecrating; dedication to the service and worship of a deity.
2. the act of giving the sacramental character to the Eucharistic elements of bread and wine, esp. in the Roman Catholic Church.
3. ordination to a sacred office, esp. to the episcopate.

I don't see your point.

 

[holo]

It's crazy what you attribute to my words! I am not religious, as Christianity is not a religion. You are simply reading your own bias into my posts.

Yeah, feels kind of undeserved, doesn't it? You would never accept anyone talking to you the way you are talking to them, I'm sure.

And yes, you ARE religious. You insist on living according to rules.

God is looking for people who obey Him

Actually, He's just looking for people to love. That's why He created us in the first place. All these rules you're promoting have no place in the christian life. If it wouldn't make any sense for you to teach these rules to Adam and Eve, it doesn't make any sense to teach them to me either.

He wants to bless us with His abundance and to crown our efforts with success. We are salt and light in this world and He wants us to be effective as His army against evil and in bringing souls into His kingdom. That is our role in life.

And how, exactly, does masturbation conflict with this?

 

[Zecryphon]

I have read many of your posts and arguments. Let me say one thing, they are ignorant, and judgmental. How can you declare masturbation as a sin when the bible never says it is? Why do you guys always associate masturbation with lust? I definitely can do so without even one lustful though of another woman. Before I was born again (last year) I always accompanied the act of masturbation with lustful thoughts and usually pornographic material. But since i have been born again, I have been given the ability to touch without one lustful thought! Shame on those of you who are making up false things about God's word, judging others, and mocking others. I can't seem to find the verse, but it tells us not to argue with each other also. This is what bothers me as a believer, the other members of the church are so judgmental, they don't show much kindness, they act like (sorry to say)
biggotts (don't know how to spell it lol) and can easily make a non-believer decide not to follow God. Is this the kind of behavior you want the non-believers to see? The word "Christian" means little Christ. I think some of us need to act more like it. By the way, how about we get back on topic.

Sorry if I seemed a little harsh.
Also, Im not declaring the act of masturbation to be rite or wrong.
Im just saying the bible doens't mention it, and if it was so important I think God would have mentioned it somewhere. Remember, there is nothing new under the sun. People masturbated back in the Bible days also.

"I have read many of your posts and arguments. Let me say one thing, they are ignorant, and judgmental."

Okay, now that you've made the claim, how about backing it up. Actually, don't bother, claims from teenage boys about my maturity level don't bother me.

"How can you declare masturbation as a sin when the bible never says it is?"

Well see here's how it works. When I'm faced with any questionable activity I go to the Bible and read what it says. If the issue is not addressed directly, like masturbation isn't, I look for God's teaching on similar subjects. In this case, you would look for His teaching and what He said concerning lust, sex outside of marriage, etc. Then you take what you have learned, evaluate it and apply it to the situation at hand. That's what I have done here, yet I'm ignorant and judgmental.

"Why do you guys always associate masturbation with lust? I definitely can do so without even one lustful though of another woman."

The reason masturbation is associated with lust, is because lustful thoughts lead to masturbation, not the other way around. People see a person or an image and it stirs certain hormonal feelings in them and instead of living in a way that is pleasing to God, they decide to act upon those feelings and live for themselves. There is also pleasure in self-denial too. One day when you grow up a bit, you'll understand that.

"Before I was born again (last year) I always accompanied the act of masturbation with lustful thoughts and usually pornographic material. But since i have been born again, I have been given the ability to touch without one lustful thought!"

That's good. It's a sign that you're growing in holiness and righteousness. If you keep growing as you are, one day you will probably not even need to massturbate anymore.

"Shame on those of you who are making up false things about God's word, judging others, and mocking others."

How about putting some of that shame upon yourself while you're at it? As you started off your little post here with a very judgmental attitude and personal insults. Don't be a hypocrite. Don't condemn others for the very same behavior you unashamedly commit yourself.

"I can't seem to find the verse, but it tells us not to argue with each other also."

The Bible does tell us that we can judge those inside of the church body. It tells us that we can expel the immoral brother from the church body. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 for the permission to judge those inside the church. See 1 Corinthians 5 for information on how sexual immorality defiles the church, and remember the church is the body of Christ on earth. Also see Matthew 18:15 for information on what the body of Christ is to do with unrepentant brothers and sisters. It's called church discipline and it is not used enough in my opinion. People just let people go right on sinning because they're afraid of not being politically correct.

"This is what bothers me as a believer, the other members of the church are so judgmental, they don't show much kindness, they act like (sorry to say)
biggotts (don't know how to spell it lol) and can easily make a non-believer decide not to follow God."

Read the scriptures I have given you, we are commanded by God in His written word to do what is being done here. Just because alot of people or churches don't have the guts to do it, doesn't automatically make doing it wrong. Correction is never easy to take, for anyone. Myself included. I think a big reason for that is our pride. We still have it, we're told to have it. Take pride in yourself, take pride in your work, etc. So it's a very difficult thing for the Christian to let go of.

"Is this the kind of behavior you want the non-believers to see?"

Yeah, actually it is. Because non-believers think the church is full of hypocrites who tolerate sinful behavior from their members, while condemning it in others. I'd love for the world to see that Christians don't tolerate sinful behavior from anyone, either the world or believers. That we actually stand for what we say we believe.

"The word "Christian" means little Christ. I think some of us need to act more like it. By the way, how about we get back on topic."

Oh sorry we can't do that, because you see there are some people who don't even want this thread in this section as they feel it's not appropriate. So like I've said before I'm bowing out of this thread and whoever wants to continue to talk about this may. And just so you know, Christ rebuked sinners and hypocrites all the time. He didn't "turn the other cheek" to sin. We don't either.

"Sorry if I seemed a little harsh."

Me too. This is an emotionally charged topic all the way around, it's easy to lose your head.

"Also, Im not declaring the act of masturbation to be rite or wrong."

Ah, but actually you are declaring it to be okay. Your rationale for this is that the Bible doesn't say it's a sin, therefore it must be okay and you are coming down on others who do think it's a sin, because of what has been revealed to us through study of the scriptures and the Holy Spirit and telling us that we are ignorant and judgmental, when in fact we're just doing what we've been told by God to do. Judge those in the church, be discerning and be on the lookout for false teachers.

"Im just saying the bible doens't mention it, and if it was so important I think God would have mentioned it somewhere. Remember, there is nothing new under the sun. People masturbated back in the Bible days also."

They also stoned people for being gay. Since it's in the Bible can I do that one today? This is where discernment comes into play.

 

[Zecryphon]

con·se·cra·tion /ˌkɒnsɪˈkreɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-si-krey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the act of consecrating; dedication to the service and worship of a deity.
2. the act of giving the sacramental character to the Eucharistic elements of bread and wine, esp. in the Roman Catholic Church.
3. ordination to a sacred office, esp. to the episcopate.

I don't see your point.

If I may, I think her point is found in the first definition you've given. "Dedication to the worship and service of a deity." In this case the deity is Christ. We are to be dedicated to serving Him. Doing what we have been commanded to do. Not just sitting back and resting on our laurels because we are in Him. We are to honor Him with our words, actions, thoughts and deeds. We are to serve as He would have served, act as He would have acted. Everyone always asks this: "What Would Jesus Do"? Do you think Jesus would touch? Do you see any evidence in the Bible of Jesus living for Himself or rather do you see evidence of Him putting aside what He may have wanted to do and doing what His father had commanded Him to do? I see the latter and never the former.

 

[holo]

If that's true, then why would they be trusting in a future messiah? They could just keep going with their blood, grain and burnt offerings.

I don't think they expected a messiah to pay for their sins.

Luther said that "the law is a curb and a guide." In my opinion it brings the knowledge of sin to the unsaved and guides the lives of those who are saved

Could you give an example of that? How has the law guided your life?

If you were about to get hit by a bus or a train and someone pushed you out of the way and saved your life. You would be grateful right? I sure would. You would be asking that person 'is there anything I can do for you?' You'd do anything to show them how thankful you were, wouldn't you? That's how we are to act towards God. We follow the law to show Him that we are truly thankful for what He has done for us.

For my part, I DON'T live according to the law for that very reason. He has bought me free, He has allowed me to DIE to the law so that I may belong to Christ instead. Going back to the law in any way would be infidelity to Christ.

No, God saw you as a wicked sinner. That's why He sent Jesus, so that you would not have to pay the fines your crimes against Him had incurred. It is after you got saved, however that happened, that He then saw you as His child, not while you were still in your sins did He see you that way.

In any case, He died for us while we were still sinners. He didn't see a sinner, but rather a potential child.

Very good. But that does not release you from the guide the law is.

I can't be released from something I've never been under. The law was never given to the gentiles.

Following it will not save you, but following it will show your thankfulness towards God and be a living witness to the world. If people see the change in you, they will become curious about what brought it on and ask you about it.

They do see it, and they do ask. They see love and harmony in me, not law-keeping.

Because the father could see the brokeness and the contrition on the part of the son. He knew the son understood what he had done wrong.

That's not what the parable says, though. It says that as soon as the Father saw his son in the distance, He ran toward him. When the son started explaining, he didn't say "yes son, you did wrong, but I forgive you because you understand things and came home for the right reasons etc" - no, he just drummed together a party right away.

You have to go back to why the prodigal son decided to return home. Because he realized that he had been a fool. He had a revealtion. How? Who knows? But when he went to the father, he went knowing he deserved nothing. He humbled himself before his father. That is what we must do when we come to Jesus for salvation. We must humble ourselves before God.

And I was humbled. Completely regardless of the law.

Everyone thinks they're a good person, then when you use the law to show them they're not, they still think that God will let them into Heaven. It's completely illogical.

Not necessarily. I've seen people try to use the ten commandments approach on people who don't even believe in the first place, or who can't understand that they've supposedly been such bad people - because in fact they're pretty nice people, they work in charity, and if God is going to hold that stolen chocolate from 1987 against them, then screw God...

The law approach makes God looks like an angry boss who is more interested in evaluating you than in loving you. And Jesus looks like nothing but God's punching bag. The law approach made me terrified of God for most of my life.

And Jesus knew that and distanced Himself from those who wanted merely the things He could give them that would make their earthly lives better.

But he never denied anyone healing. It's Jesus nature to heal.

What makes a church sufficient then? They're horribly underfunded.

Well, I've had churches ask me for money to raise a new building and stuff like that...

But we don't do we? We always have an ulterior motive it seems. Like a gospel tract attached to that sandwich or soda. Or a business card for the church with directions on how to find us again. That's the bait and switch I was talking about earlier.

Yeah, I've seen that too. I think that I would rather see a person get food AND a tract, than nothing at all, but I agree that it's not the best approach. The Salvation Army does it well, I think.

Yes you have. You have said now that you are saved you can do whatever you want.

Yes. And what I want isn't to "not serve God" or anything to that effect.

Here's a statement you made in post # 299: "I don't do anything to please God, either. Again, it's Jesus in and through me. Not me." Or this one from post # 301: "Actually, it's when you ARE saved you can start living the way you do please, because when you're saved you receive the nature of God. I have the same attitude toward sin as God has. I hate sin."

See? It's not about living for God or by the rules He has set down for your life, but living for yourself and doing what you please.

No, I've never said I'm living for myself. That's just what you assume I'm doing, since I'm not trying to live for God. I don't live for Jesus, I live IN Jesus. And He hasn't laid down any rules for my life. He IS my life.

As I said to Floatingaxe somewhere, if your rule wouldn't make any sense to Adam and Eve, it won't make any sense to me either.

So what assurance do you have that you actually are saved?

His Spirit in me. The experience of my new nature. The experience of love. The fruits of the Spirit in my life.

You misunderstand the message.

I hope so.

They don't lay a guilt trip on anyone. They present the law, which brings about the knowledge of sin, the Holy Spirit then convicts the person in their heart of their wrong doing and then the person is left alone to decide what to do next. They never push for a decision on the street like alot of evangelists and most modern-day churches.

I was sure I saw a video of them doing exactly that. Perhaps I've mixed them up.

A creed is a statement of beliefs, nothing more. Look at the three ecumenical creeds in Christendom today. they're not a list of rules of what you must do to be saved, but a staement of faith and beliefs.

Yes, and that's pretty much the problem.

I have six siblings. Ask us about our dad and you'll get seven different answers. I could make a statement about who he is, and so could my brothers and sisters. None of us would be wrong, and at the same time, none of us would be completely right either. It wouldn't make any sense to say that this or that was the ultimate statement about Daddy.

And why should we make statements anyway? The point is that he's our dad. If you'd like to know him, I'll introduce you to him, not define him for you.

No, you must recognize why you need a savior.

Must your child realize why he needs a dad? Doesn't he love you anyway? Doesn't he ask you for help and all, anyway? Isn't it enough for you?

As a child, I never philosophied about WHY I needed daddy. He was just there, and it was great. And obviously, he never once asked or expected me to figure out exactly why I should need him for this or that. He was there, and I could take him for granted, and that's how it's supposed to be. As I got older, though, I grew even more thankful and understood things better. Which is a bonus, not a requirement.

A Christian can not ruin another Christian's salvation.

No, but they can ruin each other's lives. I believed for years that I was eternally lost because of christian teaching.

But the question is, are you soundly saved or a false convert.

Why is that the question? Either you're saved, or you're not. It's not our business to judge about these things? Why not rather assume the best about people?

If that were true you'd have no problem with me and what I'm saying because I'd be at home and not out in the world talking to you.

We are both in our Father's home. You're here for the "right" reasons, I'm here for the "wrong" reasons. But the point is, we're both here, and we're both welcome.

How would you like them evaluated? Do I have to put on the kid gloves to talk to you or can I talk to you like an adult?

Talk to me however you like. Just airing my feelings about it.

If they don't understand how they have transgressed the law and why they need a savior and that they have to take up their cross and follow Jesus and what that means, then yes I will tell them. That's not insanity, that's love.

God's love saves people. His love expressed in the Gospel. There are as many ways to Christ as there are people. If God has accepted them, so whould we.

That will happen when you understand the core doctrines. I don't see that you do.

There you go! Understanding core doctrines... that's not what it's about. It's about knowing Christ. It has to do with a person, not an understanding. The Gospel can save even a fool.

You think you don't need to do anything because you're in Christ. That's not true.

Christ is the one doing stuff.

Again, I have never said that you were in fact one, only that you could be one. I'm sure you are amazed that people like me are for real, because apparently you've never been hit with this kind of honesty and in your face, confront you in your sin approach.

Oh yes. It happens regularly. People are preoccupied with my "sin approach" for some reason.

 

[Zecryphon]

"Could you give an example of that? How has the law guided your life?"

Remember, the law doesn't work alone. It works in conjunction with your conscience too and the Holy Spirit as well. Because of the law I know it is wrong to steal, murder, worship false idols, take the name of the Lord God in vain, commit adultery, covet, etc. By not doing these things that God has commanded are wicked, I live a life that is pleasing to God and a life that honors Him and shows Him I am thankful for all that He has done for me.

Holo: "For my part, I DON'T live according to the law for that very reason. He has bought me free, He has allowed me to DIE to the law so that I may belong to Christ instead. Going back to the law in any way would be infidelity to Christ."

Only if you're going back to the law to earn your way to Heaven. If you're living a law guided life out of thankfulness to God, that is not wrong. Dying to yourself means dying to your rules for your life and adopting God's rules for your life. Living for Him.

Holo: "In any case, He died for us while we were still sinners. He didn't see a sinner, but rather a potential child."

If that's true the verse would be worded a lot differently don't you think? It wouldn't say what it says but rather something along the lines of "and while we were yet potential children, Christ died for us." Doesn't really make sense does it, if Christ is the sacrifical lamb that died for the world to take away their sins. You also have to keep in mind how the people who penned these verses understood what was being written. It's a very dangerous thing to take our societal norms and understandings of how things should be and apply it backwards to the Biblical times.

Holo: "I can't be released from something I've never been under. The law was never given to the gentiles."

You just don't get it. You can not comprehend the fact that if you are not born again that when you die, you will be judged by God's moral law. So apparently the world is still under the penalty of the law. The only way to be set free from the penalty of the law is to be in Christ. It's the penalty of the law He took at the cross. He said Himself that not one letter, jot or tittle of the law would be set aside until He came again. The law is your guide to living a life that is pleasing to God. There is just no other way to explain it to you. You for some reason, just don't get it.


Holo: "That's not what the parable says, though. It says that as soon as the Father saw his son in the distance, He ran toward him. When the son started explaining, he didn't say "yes son, you did wrong, but I forgive you because you understand things and came home for the right reasons etc" - no, he just drummed together a party right away."

Right, when the father started talking to the son he saw that the son was broken and sorry for his actions. He extended grace in that case, not the law. Like I've said before we have to decide which one is neccessary based upon the circumstances.

Holo: "And I was humbled. Completely regardless of the law."

But I don't see that attitude of humility or thankfulness to God reflected in what you write. I don't see that you have any need for God's rules in your life and that is not the attitude of someone who is thankful and loving towards the very God that saved him.

Holo: "Not necessarily. I've seen people try to use the ten commandments approach on people who don't even believe in the first place, or who can't understand that they've supposedly been such bad people - because in fact they're pretty nice people, they work in charity, and if God is going to hold that stolen chocolate from 1987 against them, then screw God..."

Exactly. Because they're fueled by pride and rebellion and ignorance about how holy and just God is. They only see it from their side, never from God's side.

Holo: "The law approach makes God looks like an angry boss who is more interested in evaluating you than in loving you. And Jesus looks like nothing but God's punching bag. The law approach made me terrified of God for most of my life."

The only people who fear an angry boss or a judge are the people who have angered him in the first place. Everyone knows they've done stuff to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] off God. Their warped idea of love though is for God to let them go. Even though they're career crimminals. If a judge just let a career crimminal go back out into the world to commit more crimes, because he was a loving person, what would you think of that judge? Would you think He was just and doing his duty, which is to punish law breakers and uphold the law? Or would you think he is corrupt and needs to be punished himself? If it's the latter, why do you hold God to a different standard? Why should God just let career crimminals go? Crimminals who will hurt his children with their thoughts, words actions and deeds? That's not a loving God, that's an absent one. Answer these questions for yourself.

Holo: "But he never denied anyone healing. It's Jesus nature to heal."

He doesn't have to deny anyone healing, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that He distances Himself from people who only wanted what they could get from Him. Jesus wanted people to take up their cross and follow Him. Remember what He said to the people who wanted to go home and get their affairs in order before coming to follow Him?

"Well, I've had churches ask me for money to raise a new building and stuff like that..."

But a new building fund isn't the same as being a social outreach center.


"Yes. And what I want isn't to "not serve God" or anything to that effect."

God has given you rules for how you can serve Him and live a life that is pleasing to Him and you want nothing to do with any of that. Is it the word "rules" you don't like? Does that make it too legalistic for you? Then just tell others I do what God has commanded me to do. But don't be surprised if someone sees a discrepancy in your actions and what God has commanded people to do and not do, and then call you on it, not out of judgment, but out of love for your own well being.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Here's a statement you made in post # 299: "I don't do anything to please God, either. Again, it's Jesus in and through me. Not me." Or this one from post # 301: "Actually, it's when you ARE saved you can start living the way you do please, because when you're saved you receive the nature of God. I have the same attitude toward sin as God has. I hate sin."

See? It's not about living for God or by the rules He has set down for your life, but living for yourself and doing what you please.

"No, I've never said I'm living for myself. That's just what you assume I'm doing, since I'm not trying to live for God. I don't live for Jesus, I live IN Jesus. And He hasn't laid down any rules for my life. He IS my life."

You said it in post # 301. Maybe you need to find a different way of saying it. Because you are saying things that you apparently don't mean. If you're not living for God, you're living for yourself. It really is that black and white.

"As I said to Floatingaxe somewhere, if your rule wouldn't make any sense to Adam and Eve, it won't make any sense to me either."

Oh I hope you're not holding up Adam and Eve as the pillars of living lives that are pleasing to God. Didn't all this trouble start with them? Plus you have no way of proving the claim that the 10 Commandments would not make sense to Adam and Eve. Seems everything else God said to them made sense. Their wasn't some mass-communication error in the Garden of Eden. They knew exactly what God expected them to do. It's when they sat under a false teacher, Satan, that their troubles began.

"His Spirit in me. The experience of my new nature. The experience of love. The fruits of the Spirit in my life."

Yeah, see that's the thing, from what you've written here, the fruits in your life don't look like good fruit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
They don't lay a guilt trip on anyone. They present the law, which brings about the knowledge of sin, the Holy Spirit then convicts the person in their heart of their wrong doing and then the person is left alone to decide what to do next. They never push for a decision on the street like alot of evangelists and most modern-day churches.

"I was sure I saw a video of them doing exactly that. Perhaps I've mixed them up."

No you probably saw them and that's probably how you took it. But since you don't understand fully how this whole thing works, you misinterpreted what you saw. Read the book Hells Best Kept Secret, that will explain this whole thing very nicely.

"Yes, and that's pretty much the problem."

A statement of faith or beliefs is hardly a problem.

"I have six siblings. Ask us about our dad and you'll get seven different answers. I could make a statement about who he is, and so could my brothers and sisters. None of us would be wrong, and at the same time, none of us would be completely right either. It wouldn't make any sense to say that this or that was the ultimate statement about Daddy."

Well then your problem is the source material. The source material for the creeds is the Bible. They are not scripture, but they are scriptural. Now unless you're going to say that the Bible can't be trutsed, you have no reason to disregard the Apostle's, Nicene or Athanasian creeds.

"And why should we make statements anyway? The point is that he's our dad. If you'd like to know him, I'll introduce you to him, not define him for you."

He has defined Himself in His written word to mankind. You just have a problem hearing His definiton of Himself repeated back to you for some reason.

"Must your child realize why he needs a dad? Doesn't he love you anyway? Doesn't he ask you for help and all, anyway? Isn't it enough for you?"

It's not about me anymore remember? Yes children must realize why they need a dad, it's part of having a complete understanding of the family unit and how things are supposed to work.

"As a child, I never philosophied about WHY I needed daddy. He was just there, and it was great. And obviously, he never once asked or expected me to figure out exactly why I should need him for this or that. He was there, and I could take him for granted, and that's how it's supposed to be. As I got older, though, I grew even more thankful and understood things better. Which is a bonus, not a requirement."

You can't compare a flawed human relationship with your earthly father with your Father in Heaven. It never works. Jesus said those who love Him will keep His commands. He commanded us to love our Father in Heaven, with all our hearts, all our minds and all our souls and to treat our neighbors as we would like to be treated. If you love both your neighbor and your Father in Heaven, you are not going to steal from your nieghbor, you are not going to kill your neighbor, you are not going to sleep with your neighbors wife, you are not going to covet your neighbors things, if you love your Father in Heaven, you are not going to take His name in vain, you are not going to love anything more than Him, and look at that, by showing your love to your neighbor and your Father in Heaven in these ways and a few more, you have kept the 10 Commandments. And why did you do it? Not to get into Heaven or earn something from God, but becaue you love Him.

"No, but they can ruin each other's lives. I believed for years that I was eternally lost because of christian teaching."

Bad Christian teaching no doubt. That stuff exists in abundance.

"Why is that the question? Either you're saved, or you're not. It's not our business to judge about these things? Why not rather assume the best about people?"

The Bible tells us to be discerning. It tells us to be on the lookout for false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing. It tells us to also cast out our immoral brothers. It tells us to judge those within the church body. So everything that you think is so unfair that has happened to you here, is actually commanded by God in His written word. We can assume the best about people until we have reason to not believe they are who they say they are. Your posts have raised serious concerns with some people on this board, we are attempting to find out if our concerns are valid, if they are, then there is a serious problem. But until you recongize that there even could be a serious problem, these posts are just academic in nature.

"God's love saves people. His love expressed in the Gospel. There are as many ways to Christ as there are people. If God has accepted them, so whould we."

All roads lead home then? Universalism at it's finest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
That will happen when you understand the core doctrines. I don't see that you do.

"There you go! Understanding core doctrines... that's not what it's about. It's about knowing Christ. It has to do with a person, not an understanding. The Gospel can save even a fool."

As we're talking about your ability to sit over me as a teacher here, your response is not on topic and therefore out of context.