Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Floatingaxe]

No, I don't. I am disturbed and appalled by your guys' attitudes, though. I'm fortunately strong and independant enough myself not to be ruined by it, but you have no idea how many people are. You and Floatingaxe have blood on your hands, you slam shut the doors of heaven in the faces of those Christ died to redeem. You got it for free, but you won't pass it on free. Instead, you add all sorts of rules and regulations and commandments and expectations - none of which ever saved YOU, but that you say must be there to save others. That's my problem.

Just how many people have you led to Jesus, holo? Who says we are closing the doors to heaven in people's faces? Actually, people are closing the doors on themselves.

You, however, are living your "Christian" life by the seat of your pants, making it up as you go along, refusing to be taught, not affiliating with any local Body of believers, and not submitting to leadership of any kind! It is God's will that we belong to a local body, holo. So far you are revealing yourself to be a disobedient, stiff-necked solo artist. There is no place in the kingdom for "Lone Ranger" Christians. They only have a smattering of the truth.

You make no sense. All of us have access to free salvation.But we, once saved, have a responsibility to obey God and live holy lives.

 

[holo]

Holo, the main problem you have is that you don't understand the law and why it is still necessary. You don't understand it's purpose. Others have tried to explain it to you and you ignore what they're saying.

I understand the need and purpose you say YOU have for the law, I just don't see what I would need it for myself. And so far, nobody has given me even one example of a situation where I'd need the law for anything.

I can not shut the doors of Heaven or stop salvation from being passed around. But since you think this is my intention, please show me where in my posts I have shown this attitude. I'll be waiting eagerly for it.

The attitude is all over you posts, because you are saying that faith in Christ is not enough to save people. His grace isn't sufficient. You say that one needs grace plus being heterosexual (or abstaining from sex altogether), for example. You say, in effect, that Jesus' work isn't enough - you must also refrain from masturbation. Or pre-marital sex. Or whatever. Floatingaxe has similar, but slighty different ideas - for her, salvation (or at least real and good salvation) must involve being a member of a local congregation. All stuff that closes the doors on a whole lot of people. Stuff that keeps people away from Christ, because even though salvation is a free gift, you keep adding requirements and rules and limits all around.

In fact I'd love for everyone to be saved, but in order for that to happen they have to know why they need saving and what they're being saved from.

Does everybody need to be saved in the exact same way as you? Must everybody have the exact same understanding of things? What is the similarity between the bleeding woman, the roman officer, the thief on the cross? NOTHING. Except that they, in one way or another, simply believed in Christ. It had NOTHING to do with adhering to some sort of creed or understanding the law or blah blah blah. That's just something a lot of you modern christians have MADE UP.

Without the law the gospel doesn't make sense.

Not to you, perhaps, but most definately to me. But that doesn't mean I'll claim that you can't be really saved unless you disregard the law. I know that for some, the law has played a big role, just like theology studies did for some, or a miracle for yet another person. A friend of mine got saved after realizing on an acid trip that there is a spiritual reality. That doesn't mean he could claim that without LSD, the gospel makes no sense!

 

[holo]

Just how many people have you led to Jesus, holo? Who says we are closing the doors to heaven in people's faces? Actually, people are closing the doors on themselves.

Yes, because you FORCE them to and/or CONVINCE them to. Jesus died for sinners, for everybody, but you preach a "gospel" that is only for the elect and those who deserve it somehow. You preach a "free" gift that you have to start paying for once you receive it. By giving up masturbation or getting married and whatever kind of insane rule churchianity has made up.

refusing to be taught

By you? Yes, most definately. You are talking about "touch not, eat not" - not what I need to learn. Not something for born-again believers.

not affiliating with any local Body of believers

Actually, I am. Not that it's some sort of requirement for salvation or for anything else though. It's good, it's a blessing, and I'm fortunate to actually have believing friends around me. It has nothing to do with a building or an organization. It is, as you say, a BODY.

and not submitting to leadership of any kind!

Sure I am. Just not YOUR leadership.

There is no place in the kingdom for "Lone Ranger" Christians.

Yet another completely INSANE rule to make up. WHERE, exactly, does the bible say anything even remotely like that? "No place in the kingdom for lone ranger christians"? What is that supposed to mean!?

That's a brilliant example of what I'm talking about. You meet some guy who for some reason doesn't want to/can't (because the church is being abusive, for example) go to "church" where he lives, and this is what you will tell him.

It's heartbreaking. If you could only once see the heart of just one of the people who are in the gutter emotionally, socially and physically, because of these insane attitudes.

You make no sense. All of us have access to free salvation.But we, once saved, have a responsibility to obey God and live holy lives.

Another good example of what I mean. "First it's a free gift, but then you have to earn it!" THAT makes no sense. And it is NOT the gospel in any way, shape or form.

 

[Zecryphon]

I understand the need and purpose you say YOU have for the law, I just don't see what I would need it for myself. And so far, nobody has given me even one example of a situation where I'd need the law for anything.

The attitude is all over you posts, because you are saying that faith in Christ is not enough to save people. His grace isn't sufficient. You say that one needs grace plus being heterosexual (or abstaining from sex altogether), for example. You say, in effect, that Jesus' work isn't enough - you must also refrain from masturbation. Or pre-marital sex. Or whatever. Floatingaxe has similar, but slighty different ideas - for her, salvation (or at least real and good salvation) must involve being a member of a local congregation. All stuff that closes the doors on a whole lot of people. Stuff that keeps people away from Christ, because even though salvation is a free gift, you keep adding requirements and rules and limits all around.

Does everybody need to be saved in the exact same way as you? Must everybody have the exact same understanding of things? What is the similarity between the bleeding woman, the roman officer, the thief on the cross? NOTHING. Except that they, in one way or another, simply believed in Christ. It had NOTHING to do with adhering to some sort of creed or understanding the law or blah blah blah. That's just something a lot of you modern christians have MADE UP.

Not to you, perhaps, but most definately to me. But that doesn't mean I'll claim that you can't be really saved unless you disregard the law. I know that for some, the law has played a big role, just like theology studies did for some, or a miracle for yet another person. A friend of mine got saved after realizing on an acid trip that there is a spiritual reality. That doesn't mean he could claim that without LSD, the gospel makes no sense!

"I understand the need and purpose you say YOU have for the law, I just don't see what I would need it for myself."

And it is because you do not see this, that I am worried about your eternal security and suspect that you might not be saved. You told me yourself that you did not come to faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins, but for another reason altogether that I will not air here.

"And so far, nobody has given me even one example of a situation where I'd need the law for anything."

You need the law in order to admit to God that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness. Without the knowledge of sin that the law brings, there is no reason for anyone to come to faith in Christ. Why does a person need a savior? What would they need to be saved from? God's wrath and judgment? Why is God wrathful towards us and what standard did He use to pass judgment upon us? These are all questions I have received when I used to witness without the law. They are good questions because they reflect a person's true state of not knowing their condition before God. They don't know because no one has told them the law and shown them how they have transgressed it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
I can not shut the doors of Heaven or stop salvation from being passed around. But since you think this is my intention, please show me where in my posts I have shown this attitude. I'll be waiting eagerly for it.

"The attitude is all over you posts, because you are saying that faith in Christ is not enough to save people."

If it's all over my posts you should have had no trouble producing some examples and yet, I see none. Since you have no evidence to back up your baseless claim I shall continue.

Christ Himself said in Luke 13 repent or you too shall likewise perish. So what do people need to repent of? Their sins? What's a sin? A transgression of God's moral law. Well what is God's moral law? You just can't get away from it. If you don't understand the law and why you need God's grace to save you, God's grace is robbed of it's meaning.

"His grace isn't sufficient. You say that one needs grace plus being heterosexual (or abstaining from sex altogether), for example."

His grace is sufficient but you have to understand why you need His grace and Christ's sacrifice. Without the law I don't think you can have this knowledge. You have the attitude of wanting to shoot the messenger. I didn't come up with these rules as you call them for leading a holy life, God did. It's all over His written word.

"You say, in effect, that Jesus' work isn't enough - you must also refrain from masturbation."

My views on masturbation are just that, my views based upon what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me through the scriptures. You disagree, but you don't do so because of some revelation you've had from the Spirit that masturbation is okay, you disagree because you think I am condeming a sin you apparently enjoy.

"Or pre-marital sex. Or whatever. Floatingaxe has similar, but slighty different ideas - for her, salvation (or at least real and good salvation must involve being a member of a local congregation. All stuff that closes the doors on a whole lot of people."

You can be saved anywhere, at any time you don't have to be in a church environment to be saved. I got saved in the shower of all places. But to grow in Christianity, to learn, to fellowship with other believers, to honor God, to worship God, you do need to belong to a local church body. You can not forsake the gathering of the saints. It is God's written word that we get our information from on how we are to live. I don't know where you get your information. But for some reason you seem to want to shoot God's messengers or at least antagonize, insult and ridicule them because you don't like the message they're bringing.

"Stuff that keeps people away from Christ, because even though salvation is a free gift, you keep adding requirements and rules and limits all around."

The things we talk about are what God has revealed He expects from those who follow Him. We don't sit around and come up with this stuff on our own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
In fact I'd love for everyone to be saved, but in order for that to happen they have to know why they need saving and what they're being saved from.

"Does everybody need to be saved in the exact same way as you?"

Everyone needs forgiveness of their sins. Your concern for the welfare of others is confusing to me, because you've said in other threads in the past you can do whatever you want. Do you ever stop to consider that your words may be a stumbling block for people new to the faith, who are weak? You've said you take this into consideration in your life offline, I'm just curious as to why you seem to not take it into consideration in your life online.


Christ Himself said no one comes to the Father except by Him. He also said that His name is the only name under Heaven by which people are saved. He also said that we must repent or perish. So it seems that yes, everyone gets saved the same way. Repentance of their sins and faith in Christ.

"Must everybody have the exact same understanding of things?"

They must understand the law, how they have transgressed it and why they need God's free gift of salvation through Christ. Other than that, I can not say what people must believe or know. But when people tell me they are engaged in behaviors that the Bible prohibits, that send up a red flag for me and if enough flags go up, I have to start to wonder.

"What is the similarity between the bleeding woman, the roman officer, the thief on the cross? NOTHING."

Oh, except the fact that they were all sinners. That thief wasn't on the cross for his health ya know.

"Except that they, in one way or another, simply believed in Christ. It had NOTHING to do with adhering to some sort of creed or understanding the law or blah blah blah."

And you know this how? Have you talked to these people? I think not. Blah, blah, blah. That's a perfect illustration of how much reverence you have towards God and His law. Statements such as that one make it clear that you don't have any.

"That's just something a lot of you modern christians have MADE UP."

So modern day Christians have made up the 10 Commandments and put those words into the Bible. This is the claim you are making, you are now free to back it up, but I really don't expect you will be able to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Without the law the gospel doesn't make sense.

"Not to you, perhaps, but most definately to me."

Really? Okay. What do you need to be saved from Holo? Why do you need Christ as your Savior?

"But that doesn't mean I'll claim that you can't be really saved unless you disregard the law."

Why not? If the law does not bring about the knowledge of sin, it really serves no purpose.

"I know that for some, the law has played a big role, just like theology studies did for some, or a miracle for yet another person. A friend of mine got saved after realizing on an acid trip that there is a spiritual reality."

He realized there was a spiritual reality, not through a revelation from the Holy Spirit but because of the use of hallucinogenic substance. Great testimony.

"That doesn't mean he could claim that without LSD, the gospel makes no sense!"

Since the gospel didn't play a role in his salvation story, according to what you've written here, I don't see how you would be able to make that claim in the first place.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, because you FORCE them to and/or CONVINCE them to. Jesus died for sinners, for everybody, but you preach a "gospel" that is only for the elect and those who deserve it somehow. You preach a "free" gift that you have to start paying for once you receive it. By giving up masturbation or getting married and whatever kind of insane rule churchianity has made up.

By you? Yes, most definately. You are talking about "touch not, eat not" - not what I need to learn. Not something for born-again believers.

Actually, I am. Not that it's some sort of requirement for salvation or for anything else though. It's good, it's a blessing, and I'm fortunate to actually have believing friends around me. It has nothing to do with a building or an organization. It is, as you say, a BODY.

Sure I am. Just not YOUR leadership.

Yet another completely INSANE rule to make up. WHERE, exactly, does the bible say anything even remotely like that? "No place in the kingdom for lone ranger christians"? What is that supposed to mean!?

That's a brilliant example of what I'm talking about. You meet some guy who for some reason doesn't want to/can't (because the church is being abusive, for example) go to "church" where he lives, and this is what you will tell him.

It's heartbreaking. If you could only once see the heart of just one of the people who are in the gutter emotionally, socially and physically, because of these insane attitudes.


Another good example of what I mean. "First it's a free gift, but then you have to earn it!" THAT makes no sense. And it is NOT the gospel in any way, shape or form.

Yep, you need to be churched, man. You cannot grow past your own disobedience. You will stay right where you are.

We are instructed to be a part of a local church. That is how it is. Refuse and be a renegade.

 

[holo]

"I understand the need and purpose you say YOU have for the law, I just don't see what I would need it for myself."

And it is because you do not see this, that I am worried about your eternal security and suspect that you might not be saved.

Do you also worry about the eternal security of the bleeding woman, the healed lepers, the thief on the cross? Do you have any reason to believe that they understood "the use for the law" like you?

You told me yourself that you did not come to faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins, but for another reason altogether that I will not air here.

Actually, I did come to Christ for forgiveness of sins, among other things. The sin issue had nothing to do with the law, though. I was pretty rotten, I didn't need a list of commandments to tell me that. I was also an addict, suicidal etc etc.

You need the law in order to admit to God that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness.

No, I didn't. Maybe you did, but I don't.

Without the knowledge of sin that the law brings, there is no reason for anyone to come to faith in Christ. Why does a person need a savior? What would they need to be saved from? God's wrath and judgment?

Among other things. A lot of lepers and blind people and gentiles came to faith because Jesus healed them.

Why is God wrathful towards us

He's not. He's gracious toward us.

and what standard did He use to pass judgment upon us? These are all questions I have received when I used to witness without the law. They are good questions because they reflect a person's true state of not knowing their condition before God.

Yes, they are good questions, and if these people need the law to get saved, by all means make use of it.

They don't know because no one has told them the law and shown them how they have transgressed it.

True, but on the other hand, the Church apparently has nothing but moral reasons why people whould be saved. The fear of hell, etc. What happened to the love that characterized the first believers and drew people toward them? Why don't people come to us to get healed, to be fed, to be helped out? I personally know people who believe because they got healed, and for no other reason whatsoever.

If it's all over my posts you should have had no trouble producing some examples and yet, I see none.

It's right here. You say that unless you have this or that understanding of the law and of sin etc, you're not "properly" saved or something to that effect.

That's like as if the son who didn't run off, told the prodigal son that "you know, in reality, you can't just walk in here and TRULY be your father's son again. You must understand exactly what you did wrong and the dynamics of his forgiveness. Now let me explain to you..."

Christ Himself said in Luke 13 repent or you too shall likewise perish. So what do people need to repent of? Their sins? What's a sin? A transgression of God's moral law. Well what is God's moral law? You just can't get away from it. If you don't understand the law and why you need God's grace to save you, God's grace is robbed of it's meaning.

God's grace transcends mercy for sins. I find 100% meaning in God's grace even though law-breaking was never my intention for seeking him initially.

You have the attitude of wanting to shoot the messenger. I didn't come up with these rules as you call them for leading a holy life, God did. It's all over His written word.

Actually, christians have pretty much made up their own set of rules drawn from the bible, plus making up a few.

My views on masturbation are just that, my views based upon what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me through the scriptures. You disagree, but you don't do so because of some revelation you've had from the Spirit that masturbation is okay, you disagree because you think I am condeming a sin you apparently enjoy.

No. If God has revealed something to you i won't contend with it. But Him revealing something to you doesn't mean it's your task to impose it on ME in on behalf of the Lord. God instructs one to travel there, he instructs another to fast for three days, different people are convinced of different things - God has not appointed you as my teacher. I can touch without offense, you can't. That's not really a problem.

You can be saved anywhere, at any time you don't have to be in a church environment to be saved. I got saved in the shower of all places.

Brilliant!

But to grow in Christianity, to learn, to fellowship with other believers, to honor God, to worship God, you do need to belong to a local church body.

I do. Not because I need it to grow or to honour God - HE takes care of the growth and he doesn't need the help of any man.

You can not forsake the gathering of the saints.

Of course I can. They may treat me like dirt, for example.

The things we talk about are what God has revealed He expects from those who follow Him. We don't sit around and come up with this stuff on our own.

But God has hardly revealed in scripture that masturbation, for example, is sinful. That is something people have decided/concluded with.

There's also this fundamentally flawed mixture of old and new covenant stuff, a mixture of the role of Jesus' disciples before the cross, with the role of God's children AFTER the cross. We're not followers, we're children. We're much better off than the twelve disciples. We don't have to achieve a thing, and unlike them, we are born again and filled with the Spirit.

We are no longer servants, but children. We serve the Lord as a child serves his parents, not by a list of rules or a contract. Children, not employees.

"Does everybody need to be saved in the exact same way as you?"

Everyone needs forgiveness of their sins. Your concern for the welfare of others is confusing to me, because you've said in other threads in the past you can do whatever you want.

Yes, and mean that. I have a new nature, and I'm free to focus on whatever is beneficial, rather than whether or not it complies with some rule. But...

Do you ever stop to consider that your words may be a stumbling block for people new to the faith, who are weak?

...yes, I do consider that, and I've been realizing it lately. Here on the forums where people can't actually see my life, I'm beginning to understand how such statments can be confusing and even offensive. I haven't been thoughtful enough about that.

Christ Himself said no one comes to the Father except by Him. He also said that His name is the only name under Heaven by which people are saved. He also said that we must repent or perish. So it seems that yes, everyone gets saved the same way. Repentance of their sins and faith in Christ.

And also, whoever comes to Him, He will in no way reject.

They must understand the law, how they have transgressed it and why they need God's free gift of salvation through Christ. Other than that, I can not say what people must believe or know. But when people tell me they are engaged in behaviors that the Bible prohibits, that send up a red flag for me and if enough flags go up, I have to start to wonder.

Understandable. But as long as you have this constant focus on morality and law and rules and sin, you'll see flags all around, all the time. It seems to be typically christian (or perhaps typically human) that if you see a person who is mostly good, but with some bad stuff, one will focus on the bad stuff. That's not the nature of love, though. And it's not something that wil actually help people change for better.

"What is the similarity between the bleeding woman, the roman officer, the thief on the cross? NOTHING."

Oh, except the fact that they were all sinners. That thief wasn't on the cross for his health ya know.

True, and I'm sure the thief realized he was indeed a sinner. The bleeding woman, on the other hand, was probably more concerned about her physical health. She came to Christ, and Christ in no way rejected her. He didn't sit down and explain the law to her either. Why should she need it? As the blind man said to the jews who questioned him, "I don't know who this Man is. All I know is that I was blind, and now I see."

"Except that they, in one way or another, simply believed in Christ. It had NOTHING to do with adhering to some sort of creed or understanding the law or blah blah blah."

And you know this how? Have you talked to these people? I think not. Blah, blah, blah. That's a perfect illustration of how much reverence you have towards God and His law.

The law is good. I have no reverence towards christian rules, though. They are actually an insult to God's law.

"That's just something a lot of you modern christians have MADE UP."

So modern day Christians have made up the 10 Commandments and put those words into the Bible.

To be precise, christians have decided to divide the law into "ceremonial" and "moral" parts, a distinction not actually found in the bible. Then they throw out 603 of the commandments and keep ten. Often they will also throw out the sabbath commandment. Then they claim that this butchered law is for both gentiles AND believers, and they also add in a bunch of other commandments that they construct from NT texts, like "thou shalt not remarry", for example. These NT commandments are often quite vague, though, so christians are often unsure as to exactly how many commandments they are under. Some will include commandments on hair lengths etc.

Yes, it's most definately something christians have made up. The entire idea that born-again believers are supposed to live according to a law (and not the actual law that God gave, but something christianity itself constructed), is wrong from the very start.

Instead of taking Paul seriously when he said that the believer is DEAD to the law, christians will butcher the law and change it and add to it and preach as if we were only dead to most of God's law, but alive to man's law. It's wrong from beginning to end.

Really? Okay. What do you need to be saved from Holo?

Everything, basically. Myself. Anxiety. Guilt. Addiction. Fear. Desperation. Hopelessness. You name it, I need it.

"But that doesn't mean I'll claim that you can't be really saved unless you disregard the law."

Why not? If the law does not bring about the knowledge of sin, it really serves no purpose.

More importantly than bringing about the knowledge of sin, is to bring about the knowledge of righteousness.

He realized there was a spiritual reality, not through a revelation from the Holy Spirit but because of the use of hallucinogenic substance. Great testimony.

Yes, it is. Because he didn't come to Christ because of LSD, but because the Spirit led him there.

But again, this demonstrates your focus. Instead of rejoicing in the fact that he got saved, you disapprove of the circumstances around his salvation.

"That doesn't mean he could claim that without LSD, the gospel makes no sense!"

Since the gospel didn't play a role in his salvation story, according to what you've written here

It did. The gospel is God's power to salvation.

I don't see how you would be able to make that claim in the first place.

Then the problem is with your eysight, not his salvation. He is completely and soundly saved to this day. Since he is saved, I know that God has saved him, because God is the only one who can save. God once made use of a donkey, and in this guy's case, he made use of an acid trip.

 

[holo]

Yep, you need to be churched, man.

What does that even mean?

You cannot grow past your own disobedience.

Disobedience to you? True, I will never grow past that.

We are instructed to be a part of a local church.

I am part of a local church.

That is how it is. Refuse and be a renegade.

Yes, sure.

All these accusations aside, do you have an actual reply to my post?

 

[hopeinGod]

I see in some of this exchange the idea Paul described regarding believers who find their identities in a particular teacher or pastor. Some said they were of Apollos, some of Cephas, and even others were saying that they don't need a living man, but merely Jesus to be taught and pastored.

What I'm seeing is carnal division.

If a man only needs Jesus to grow, then why did the Lord establish the five fold ministeries out of which we are given teachers? And why does the writer of Hebrews state that there is a time when you ought to be teachers, but you have need that one teach you again? We must be willing to sit under established teachers in the faith in order to be taught.

Teachers, pastors, evangelists, prophets, and apostles have been raised up by the Lord to bring the body into the unity of the faith, in the knowledge of the Son of God. They have a purpose!

It's a shame that schisms still to this day exist in the body of Christ. Why? Principally due to the lack of agreement. That's why our fellowship with one another ought to keep in mind the instruction to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

Dave

 

[Floatingaxe]

There's also this fundamentally flawed mixture of old and new covenant stuff, a mixture of the role of Jesus' disciples before the cross, with the role of God's children AFTER the cross. We're not followers, we're children. We're much better off than the twelve disciples. We don't have to achieve a thing, and unlike them, we are born again and filled with the Spirit.

We are no longer servants, but children. We serve the Lord as a child serves his parents, not by a list of rules or a contract. Children, not employees.

I had to stop right there!

"Fundamentally flawed mixture of old and new covenant stuff..." ??? What is fundamentally flawed is your understanding. There is no flaw in the implementation of the covenants. The roles of the children of God is the same now as before the cross: obey and be blessed. Disobey and live under a curse. Except now, the punishment is deferred due to the mercy of God because of His Son, who is given every opportunity to build His church before the Day of Wrath.

I am proud to be called a servant of the Most High God AS WELL AS His child. We are called to be His slaves-in-love. But there are conditions to receive His benefits. We must be obedient to His Word. We must spend time with Hima nd get to know Him. You cannot be "saved" and live any way you please. You need to be always seeking righteousness.

Those people that Jesus healed and raised up and forgave, He told, "Go and sin no more!" That is a condition, a rule, a regulation...and it's darned hard, isn't it? It takes work and dedication and real diligence in serving Him.

 

[rosiecotton]

Well, I'm bowing out of this thread. For one, it has now gotten off topic. But even considering the topic, it doesn't matter what anyone else says, there are people who believe they have the complete truth on it and everyone else is wrong, stiff-necked, etc, because they don't agree with them.
Secondly, the self-righteous attitudes of some are frankly making me ill. Again, just because someones walk with God is not exactly like yours, doesn't mean they aren't saved. I guess some people just understand the meaning of grace better than others.
So, have fun!
PS- Holo---amen to all your posts.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well, I'm bowing out of this thread. For one, it has now gotten off topic. But even considering the topic, it doesn't matter what anyone else says, there are people who believe they have the complete truth on it and everyone else is wrong, stiff-necked, etc, because they don't agree with them.
Secondly, the self-righteous attitudes of some are frankly making me ill. Again, just because someones walk with God is not exactly like yours, doesn't mean they aren't saved. I guess some people just understand the meaning of grace better than others.
So, have fun!
PS- Holo---amen to all your posts.

Your message is loud and clear. Those who know the Word and proclaim it without putting a personal spin on it make you ill, but those who do their own thing before a God who demands holiness understand grace and get a hearty amen!

Well I've seen everything! It's a crazy upside-down generation.

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[rosiecotton]

Your message is loud and clear. Those who know the Word and proclaim it without putting a personal spin on it make you ill, but those who do their own thing before a God who demands holiness understand grace and get a hearty amen!

Well I've seen everything! It's a crazy upside-down generation.

Come Lord Jesus!

Well that's YOUR opinion. Did you ever think that just maybe others DO know the Word, and YOU are the one who puts a personal spin on it???
And yes, as a matter of fact, I do believe Holo understands grace a LOT more than many Christians do. I think many times other people read his posts with prejudgments and preconceived notions and don't really understand what he is saying.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well that's YOUR opinion. Did you ever think that just maybe others DO know the Word, and YOU are the one who puts a personal spin on it???
And yes, as a matter of fact, I do believe Holo understands grace a LOT more than many Christians do. I think many times other people read his posts with prejudgments and preconceived notions and don't really understand what he is saying.

Oh, I understand very well what he says! He is very open and clear about what he believes.

 

[rosiecotton]

Oh, I understand very well what he says! He is very open and clear about what he believes.

Ok, whatever. I guess you know everyones hearts then.
I'm done....

 

[Zecryphon]

"Do you also worry about the eternal security of the bleeding woman, the healed lepers, the thief on the cross? Do you have any reason to believe that they understood "the use for the law" like you?"

Yes I do believe they understood the use for the law. Remember these people were all Jews. They were under the sacrificial/temple system. They knew about animal sacrifice to cover their personal transgressions against God. I believe they understood the very laws you think you don't have to follow. Not a doubt in my mind. These people also had trust in a coming messiah, a savior. Which begs the question yet again, what did they need saving from? Thier infirmities, their disabilities or their sins?

"The sin issue had nothing to do with the law, though. I was pretty rotten, I didn't need a list of commandments to tell me that. I was also an addict, suicidal etc etc."

But how did you know that you were a rotten person? What standard did you use to make that determination? Where does your knowledge of what is right and what is wrong come from? I believe it comes from God's law written on our heart, also known as our conscience. We know immediately when we have done something wrong because of our conscience. The word "conscience" means with knowledge. Con means with, and science means knowledge. It is with knowledge that we know when we have done something wrong.

"Among other things. A lot of lepers and blind people and gentiles came to faith because Jesus healed them."

Jesus told these people that their faith made them well. What did they have faith in? God's promises. In some cases Jesus extended grace, in other cases He used the law. It is up to each one of us, to decide which is appropriate to use when we witness to people.

"He's not. He's gracious toward us."


So God is not angry with sinners? He is not going to send unrepentant sinners straight to Hell when they step out of this world without Christ?

"True, but on the other hand, the Church apparently has nothing but moral reasons why people whould be saved. The fear of hell, etc."

The fear of Hell is not what should drive a person to repentance. Sorrow for sins against God is what should drive a person straight into the arms of Jesus.

"What happened to the love that characterized the first believers and drew people toward them? Why don't people come to us to get healed, to be fed, to be helped out? I personally know people who believe because they got healed, and for no other reason whatsoever."

People do come to us for those reasons, but that should not be the main reason they come to us. God didn't send Jesus to earth just to heal people and feed them. He sent Jesus to earth to die for their sins. In fact Christ Himself distanced Himself from the people who were coming to Him just to be fed and to be healed. He often went off to pray by Himself and avoided big crowds of people who came seeking just for what they could get from Him. He preached a gospel of repentance and faith, not a social gospel of feeding the hungry and curing the ill.

"It's right here. You say that unless you have this or that understanding of the law and of sin etc, you're not "properly" saved or something to that effect."

I said I wonder about the people who come to Christ for other reasons than the forgiveness of their sins. If they have not repented of their sins and placed their trust in Christ for salvation and eternal life, then yes I wonder if they know why Christ came and what exactly He has saved them from. There's nothing wrong with that. You make it sound like I'm saying "you're saved, oh and you're not." I have never said those words. I said I wonder if certain people are saved. You apparently don't understand the difference between the two statements.

"That's like as if the son who didn't run off, told the prodigal son that "you know, in reality, you can't just walk in here and TRULY be your father's son again. You must understand exactly what you did wrong and the dynamics of his forgiveness. Now let me explain to you...""

That's pretty much the attitude he had though. But not towards the prodigal son, towards the father. That's why that son went to the father and said "why are you throwing a feast for him and welcoming him back with open arms after what he did to you" and that's when the father explained to the son, that everything the father had, the son had also because the father chose to bless his son with those things.

"Actually, christians have pretty much made up their own set of rules drawn from the bible, plus making up a few."



Okay then set those aside. Get back into God's written word and see what He actually has said on the matter. Don't take another person's word for it. Whenever you hear something or are taught something, check it against the Bible to make sure that what you heard is in fact true.

"No. If God has revealed something to you i won't contend with it. But Him revealing something to you doesn't mean it's your task to impose it on ME in on behalf of the Lord."


No one is imposing it upon you. We have simply said we believe masturbation is a sin and have provided reasons why. If you feel a conflict now about masturbation being a sin, don't look to us, but look to the Holy Spirit. I believe the reason you now feel a conflict within yourself is because He is working on your heart and you are becoming convinced for the first time in your life that what you believe now, may not be correct. I can not impose anything upon anyone or make them feel guilty about their actions. That is the Holy Spirit's job and He does it well.

"I do. Not because I need it to grow or to honour God - HE takes care of the growth and he doesn't need the help of any man."

Then why has He raised up teachers, evangelists, and others to take His revelation to the world?

"Of course I can. They may treat me like dirt, for example."

So if someone treats you badly, you adopt the attitude of "screw you". Got it. You can always find another body of believers to worship with. Try Second Life. You can Google it for more information. The Christian outreach and gathering and fellowship there is HUGE.

"We don't have to achieve a thing, and unlike them, we are born again and filled with the Spirit."

Just who was it that was at Pentecost? Wasn't Peter there and preaching to the masses? If Peter was there, why should we assume that the other disciples weren't? The Day of Pentecost is when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit and given special gifts that would aid them in the Great Commission that Jesus had given them. I don't know how you can say they were not filled with the spirit.

"We are no longer servants, but children. We serve the Lord as a child serves his parents, not by a list of rules or a contract. Children, not employees."

Christians are to serve their neighbor not themselves. They are to treat others as they would like to be treated. Sadly, they almost never do. We don't follow the rules to earn something Holo, we follow the rules because God has said that people who love Him will do as He commands. Just like a child follows the rules his parents set before him as well. We do it to please God, to honor Him and to show our thankfulness for all He has done for us, not to get something from Him.

"...yes, I do consider that, and I've been realizing it lately. Here on the forums where people can't actually see my life, I'm beginning to understand how such statments can be confusing and even offensive. I haven't been thoughtful enough about that."

My prayers for you have been truly answered. Praise God!

"And also, whoever comes to Him, He will in no way reject."

So on the Day of Judgment when Christ says to the people who proclaimed His name with their lips, but not with their actions, 'depart from me, I never knew ye', who is He talking to?

"It seems to be typically christian (or perhaps typically human) that if you see a person who is mostly good, but with some bad stuff, one will focus on the bad stuff."

Scripture is clear, no one is good.

"That's not the nature of love, though. And it's not something that wil actually help people change for better."

What's loving about letting a person continue to engage in behavior that's going to get them sent to Hell by God? What's loving about not telling them that they are in danger? It's very loving to tell a person that they are behaving in a way that has put them in very grave danger and then to also tell them that there is a way out of the trap they are setting for themselves. Concern for your fellow man is what drives evangelists. Yeah, sure, we could all sit back and do nothing and let people live as they are, because we've got our "get out of Hell free cards". But that attitude does not show love, it shows selfisheness.

"True, and I'm sure the thief realized he was indeed a sinner. The bleeding woman, on the other hand, was probably more concerned about her physical health."

Actually, I think Peter was more concerned with her health, since he brought Christ to her.

"As the blind man said to the jews who questioned him, "I don't know who this Man is. All I know is that I was blind, and now I see.""

This is an example of where Christ extended grace. He knows she knew the law, she was a Jew under the temple system. Believe me those people were very familiar with God's law. The same can't be said of the people today though.

"The law is good. I have no reverence towards christian rules, though. They are actually an insult to God's law."

The rules come from God, not Christians. If a Christian is espousing a questionable rule, go to God's word and investigate it and then show your brother or sister how they are in error. Iron sharpening iron.

"To be precise, christians have decided to divide the law into "ceremonial" and "moral" parts, a distinction not actually found in the bible."

But it is found in the Torah.

"Then they throw out 603 of the commandments and keep ten."

Alot of those other commandments were penned by religious officials to keep the people in line and had nothing to do with God. Many of them concerned the Sabbath and how to ensure people kept it holy.

"These NT commandments are often quite vague, though, so christians are often unsure as to exactly how many commandments they are under. Some will include commandments on hair lengths etc."


The ones that concern hair lengths were written to the Jewish nation to protect them from the pagan practices that were all around them and could tempt them away from God. People have to know how to properly read the Bible in order to avoid making such errors. Hermeneutics is a good place to start.


"Yes, it's most definately something christians have made up. The entire idea that born-again believers are supposed to live according to a law (and not the actual law that God gave, but something christianity itself constructed), is wrong from the very start."

Then your job is to find out what God actually says and stop doing what other Christians tell you. But I will never believe for one second that God had told you it's okay to touch. Call me stubborn.

"Everything, basically. Myself. Anxiety. Guilt. Addiction. Fear. Desperation. Hopelessness. You name it, I need it."


You need to be saved from God's wrath, which you have earned with some of those activities above. Not depression and hopelessness necessarily, as those can be brought on by chemical imbalances, inherited genes, etc.

"More importantly than bringing about the knowledge of sin, is to bring about the knowledge of righteousness."

Neither one is more important than the other. I believe this is part of your problem. You value righteousness more than the law, and tend to focus solely on that. You've spent a lot of time in this post, complaining about how men have added to God's law and how they have come up with things on their own that are not found in God's word. Yet here you are engaging in the same practice by declaring that righteousness is more valuable than the law. You are placing more value on one thing than on another based upon what you personally like. Neither one is more important than the other, the law and the gospel work together in harmony to produce repentance and faith in Christ and therefore, righteousness in Christ.

"Yes, it is. Because he didn't come to Christ because of LSD, but because the Spirit led him there."

The Spirit does not lead people to take LSD. There is one spirit that would do that, but that is not the Holy Spirit. You said he took LSD and found spirituality. That's not the same as taking LSD and coming to Christ. Which is not even possible. The use of hallucinogenic drugs and all mind-altering drugs is strictly prohibited by God in the OT. He has said those things are not to be used by those who follow Him. As Christians following God we are not to use those things.

"But again, this demonstrates your focus. Instead of rejoicing in the fact that he got saved, you disapprove of the circumstances around his salvation."

Use of LSD is illegal both by US law, don't know how it is there in Norway, and by God's law. So yeah, I have a problem wtih his supposed conversion. Anyone who understands God and what He deems accetpable would.

"It did. The gospel is God's power to salvation."

You never mentioned the gospel once in that story. You mentioned LSD and spirituality.

"Then the problem is with your eysight, not his salvation."

Nope, eyes are working just fine. I can see right through people and spot a suspicious testimony a mile off. God has truly blessed me with great discernment abilities.

"He is completely and soundly saved to this day. Since he is saved, I know that God has saved him, because God is the only one who can save. God once made use of a donkey, and in this guy's case, he made use of an acid trip."

If you say so.

 

[Zecryphon]

Well, I'm bowing out of this thread. For one, it has now gotten off topic. But even considering the topic, it doesn't matter what anyone else says, there are people who believe they have the complete truth on it and everyone else is wrong, stiff-necked, etc, because they don't agree with them.
Secondly, the self-righteous attitudes of some are frankly making me ill. Again, just because someones walk with God is not exactly like yours, doesn't mean they aren't saved. I guess some people just understand the meaning of grace better than others.
So, have fun!
PS- Holo---amen to all your posts.

"Well, I'm bowing out of this thread. For one, it has now gotten off topic."

Threads tend to do that. It's the nature of the beast. When a thread gets as long as this one, it never stays on the topic of the original post, but ventures off into other areas.

"But even considering the topic, it doesn't matter what anyone else says, there are people who believe they have the complete truth on it and everyone else is wrong, stiff-necked, etc, because they don't agree with them."

Wrong. We have shared what we believe and why and have given our impressions of him based upon his posts, which is what he says he wants anyway. We have done nothing wrong. So you can stow your own judgmental attitude about others that you claim have it all figured out. We have never claimed that. Do you often go around telling lies about people who disagree with you?

"Secondly, the self-righteous attitudes of some are frankly making me ill. Again, just because someones walk with God is not exactly like yours, doesn't mean they aren't saved."

We have not said he is not saved. I have said I wonder if he is and have expressed concern over the fact that he may not be. Man, what a jerk I am, to actually care about another human being!

"I guess some people just understand the meaning of grace better than others."

Oh Holo's all about the grace, but he's very rarely shown any to others. What does he have for the people who disagree with him? Read back through the thread to find out. It sure ain't grace sister!

"So, have fun!"

It's really a shame that you're not going to stick around as I wrote you an on-topic response to your post about your thoughts on masturbation in this thread. It would've been nice to get a response.

"PS- Holo---amen to all your posts. "

So you give praise to condemnation, insults, sarcasm and rudeness? All of which can be found in good old Holo's posts. Amen to not doing what you are called by God to do and living completely for yourself? Are you seriously praising him for his attitude of rebellion towards God and rudeness towards others, sarcasm and disregard for his weaker brothers and sisters in Christ? He has expressed remorse over that one and that is awesome. But I think we all have gotten a bit deeper insight to you from your post here. Thank you, it has been truly enlightening.

 

[Zecryphon]

Ok, whatever. I guess you know everyones hearts then.
I'm done....

"Ok, whatever. I guess you know everyones hearts then."

Nope, we still haven't claimed that one. What we know about Holo and his walk and what he believes and what he does, comes from him. We can judge him and what he says and should be able to do so with out you trying to make us feel guity or ashamed for doing so. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 for more information. We are called to judge those within the church. Those who are outside the church God will judge. Since Holo claims to be in the church, he is fair game for judgment as is anyone else who call themselves a Christian.

"I'm done...."

Somehow, I doubt that.

 

[Zecryphon]

Your message is loud and clear. Those who know the Word and proclaim it without putting a personal spin on it make you ill, but those who do their own thing before a God who demands holiness understand grace and get a hearty amen!

Well I've seen everything! It's a crazy upside-down generation.

Come Lord Jesus!

Yeah, haven't you heard FloatingAxe? Personal truth rules and absolute truth is a lie made up by men to control other men. LOL

 

[holo]

Yes I do believe they understood the use for the law.

No, actually, NOBODY in that day understood the use for the law, and certainly not the jews. They thought it was given for them to be made righteous by.

These people also had trust in a coming messiah, a savior. Which begs the question yet again, what did they need saving from? Thier infirmities, their disabilities or their sins?

All of that, plus more. They thought they were already righteous, and that the Messiah would be some sort of military leader.

But how did you know that you were a rotten person? What standard did you use to make that determination? Where does your knowledge of what is right and what is wrong come from? I believe it comes from God's law written on our heart, also known as our conscience.

I guess that whatever standard I would've measured myself against, I would've failed miserably. The mosaic law had nothing to do with it in my case.

Jesus told these people that their faith made them well. What did they have faith in? God's promises. In some cases Jesus extended grace, in other cases He used the law.

Yes, when people insisted on saving themselves, He showed them what that would take.

"He's not. He's gracious toward us."


So God is not angry with sinners?

Not at all. The punishment was laid on Jesus. He died for us while we were still sinners. God isn't angry with sinners, he LOVES sinners! That's the gospel in a nutshell.

He is not going to send unrepentant sinners straight to Hell when they step out of this world without Christ?

We all get a choice, I believe. Justice, or grace. If people choose justice, they will receive justice.

The fear of Hell is not what should drive a person to repentance. Sorrow for sins against God is what should drive a person straight into the arms of Jesus.

The bible doesn't say that, or demonstrate that. It demonstrates a multitude of people coming to Christ for a multitude of reasons.

People do come to us for those reasons, but that should not be the main reason they come to us.

Why not? Why shouldn't a hungry person come to us for the sole purpose of being fed?

He preached a gospel of repentance and faith, not a social gospel of feeding the hungry and curing the ill.

When he talked about doing the right thing, though, as in living righteously, he did say to feed the poor, visit those in prison etc etc.

In fact, love is MORE important than faith.

I said I wonder about the people who come to Christ for other reasons than the forgiveness of their sins. If they have not repented of their sins and placed their trust in Christ for salvation and eternal life, then yes I wonder if they know why Christ came and what exactly He has saved them from.

What would you have told the dying thief on the cross? Jesus didn't give him a lecture. The thief most likely had no idea Jesus would save him at all. He simply believed. Hardly a high score according to this or that creed, and the Way of the Master people would surely have considered him a lost case. But Jesus didn't.

Why can't we accept the people Jesus accepts?

"That's like as if the son who didn't run off, told the prodigal son that "you know, in reality, you can't just walk in here and TRULY be your father's son again. You must understand exactly what you did wrong and the dynamics of his forgiveness. Now let me explain to you...""

That's pretty much the attitude he had though. But not towards the prodigal son, towards the father. That's why that son went to the father and said "why are you throwing a feast for him and welcoming him back with open arms after what he did to you" and that's when the father explained to the son, that everything the father had, the son had also because the father chose to bless his son with those things.

And that's what you are doing to me, too.

I run about in our Father's house, happy to be free, to be a son, a heir to all our Father's riches. But you insist I didn't come back in the correct way - I did come back to my father, but I really should have understood this and thought about that and made sure I had this motivation and walked in that manner. THEN, perhaps, would I have been worthy of my sonship.

But the fact is, you don't have to worry about people's salvation like that. You don't have to measure their motives. Instead, be glad that we ARE you brothers and sisters. The Lord is able to keep both of us.

Okay then set those aside. Get back into God's written word and see what He actually has said on the matter. Don't take another person's word for it.

Check

No one is imposing it upon you. We have simply said we believe masturbation is a sin and have provided reasons why. If you feel a conflict now about masturbation being a sin, don't look to us, but look to the Holy Spirit. I believe the reason you now feel a conflict within yourself

Trust me, I don't.

I can not impose anything upon anyone or make them feel guilty about their actions. That is the Holy Spirit's job and He does it well.

And yet, you and so many others try to do the Spirit's job...

Then why has He raised up teachers, evangelists, and others to take His revelation to the world?

No matter HOW God does it, it's still God who does it. And hey, maybe I should be your teacher?

So if someone treats you badly, you adopt the attitude of "screw you". Got it.

No, I simply don't go there anymore. There was a time, though, when I thought these people had authority over me (they were awfully good at quoting bible verses, esp. from the OT, but their attitude absolutely SUCKED), and let them abuse me. Because I believed the LIE that they were speaking on God's behalf.

You can always find another body of believers to worship with.

Yes, thankfully I can. I live in a pretty big city with several hundred different churches. More importantly though, I have good believing friends.

"We don't have to achieve a thing, and unlike them, we are born again and filled with the Spirit."

Just who was it that was at Pentecost? Wasn't Peter there and preaching to the masses?

Yes. I meant, before the cross. I'd rather be a sprit-filled believer after Jesus has left, than a normal person who only knew Jesus "according to the flesh".

Christians are to serve their neighbor not themselves. They are to treat others as they would like to be treated. Sadly, they almost never do. We don't follow the rules to earn something Holo, we follow the rules because God has said that people who love Him will do as He commands.

For my part, it's not about following this or that commandment, but rather about living out my true nature - Christ in me. When I do good, it's because Christ is expressing himself through me, not because I've decided to follow commandments.

Just like a child follows the rules his parents set before him as well. We do it to please God, to honor Him and to show our thankfulness for all He has done for us, not to get something from Him.

I don't do anything to please God, either. Again, it's Jesus in and through me. Not me.

 

[holo]

So on the Day of Judgment when Christ says to the people who proclaimed His name with their lips, but not with their actions, 'depart from me, I never knew ye', who is He talking to?

To people he never knew. People who pointed to all sorts of works they say they did, as if that was going to get them into heaven.

Scripture is clear, no one is good.

It's also clear that those who believe, are righteous. And righteous people are good. You and I are born of God. Of course we're good. We just don't act like it all the time, mainly because we're tricked into believing we're somebody else.

What's loving about letting a person continue to engage in behavior that's going to get them sent to Hell by God?

It's not a man's behaviour that sends him to hell. It's the fact that he's a sinner. If behaviour could send you to hell, then it could also send you to heaven. Sinners will be lost no matter how they behave. It's not their behaviour we should focus on, but rather their standing with God. You can't improve your standing with God by your behaviour.

What's loving about not telling them that they are in danger? It's very loving to tell a person that they are behaving in a way that has put them in very grave danger and then to also tell them that there is a way out of the trap they are setting for themselves. Concern for your fellow man is what drives evangelists. Yeah, sure, we could all sit back and do nothing and let people live as they are, because we've got our "get out of Hell free cards". But that attitude does not show love, it shows selfisheness.

Absolutely.

Believe me those people were very familiar with God's law. The same can't be said of the people today though.

And that's not a big loss, if you ask me. Better to know Christ than the law.

The rules come from God, not Christians. If a Christian is espousing a questionable rule, go to God's word and investigate it and then show your brother or sister how they are in error.

Check

"To be precise, christians have decided to divide the law into "ceremonial" and "moral" parts, a distinction not actually found in the bible."

But it is found in the Torah.

The law is ONE. Jesus said that not an IOTA of it should pass, yet most christians preach like one iota is all that's LEFT of it!

"Then they throw out 603 of the commandments and keep ten."

Alot of those other commandments were penned by religious officials to keep the people in line and had nothing to do with God. Many of them concerned the Sabbath and how to ensure people kept it holy.

And? If we are to live by the ten commandments, that includes the sabbath. And if there are instructions on how to keep the sabbath, we'd better keep them! We can't just pick and choose which commandments to keep.

"These NT commandments are often quite vague, though, so christians are often unsure as to exactly how many commandments they are under. Some will include commandments on hair lengths etc."

The ones that concern hair lengths were written to the Jewish nation to protect them from the pagan practices that were all around them and could tempt them away from God. People have to know how to properly read the Bible in order to avoid making such errors.

That's one explanation that may hold water (though I never believe the law was changed at all) - but think about it; you can come to such a conclusion because you're good with hermeneutics or whatever. But when it comes to masturbation, which the bible doesn't mention whatsoever, it's supposedly "clear" that there's a commandment against it!

Then your job is to find out what God actually says and stop doing what other Christians tell you. But I will never believe for one second that God had told you it's okay to touch. Call me stubborn.

And neither will I believe for a second he told you it was a sin. Perhaps He had some sort of reason for you to quit masturbation - I wouldn't know, and it's not my business.

"More importantly than bringing about the knowledge of sin, is to bring about the knowledge of righteousness."

Neither one is more important than the other. I believe this is part of your problem. You value righteousness more than the law

Yes, of course I do! Don't you?

and tend to focus solely on that.

Of course. I can't think of a reason to focus on the law. I have something better than the law, I have Christ.

You are placing more value on one thing than on another based upon what you personally like.

You are ritght that I personally do like righteousness better than the law, yes.

Neither one is more important than the other, the law and the gospel work together in harmony to produce repentance and faith in Christ and therefore, righteousness in Christ.

The righteousness of God is revealed APART from the law. There IS no "harmony" between the law and the gospel, between law and grace. They're like oil and water, they're opposites. One condemns, the other defends. One enslaves you and stirs up sin, the other sets you free. It's not like you have to beat people up first just to make it clear that you're a nice person when you stop and offer them a cookie instead.

"Yes, it is. Because he didn't come to Christ because of LSD, but because the Spirit led him there."

The Spirit does not lead people to take LSD.

Maybe not, but He does draw people to Christ, whether they're sober or stoned.

There is one spirit that would do that, but that is not the Holy Spirit. You said he took LSD and found spirituality. That's not the same as taking LSD and coming to Christ.

No, but it's where his journey to Christ started.

Compare it to your using the law in evangelizing. Perhaps someone comes to Christ after you've "beaten them" with the law. That doesn't mean that hearing the law means coming to Christ.

"But again, this demonstrates your focus. Instead of rejoicing in the fact that he got saved, you disapprove of the circumstances around his salvation."

Use of LSD is illegal both by US law, don't know how it is there in Norway, and by God's law.

Again - that's your focus. Why must christians always focus on everything BUT the fact that people come to Christ!?

So yeah, I have a problem wtih his supposed conversion.

And that says a lot. You have a problem with his conversion because he had some sort of spiritual/mystical experience that ultimately led him to finding Christ. You may have a problem with that, but God didn't.

"It did. The gospel is God's power to salvation."

You never mentioned the gospel once in that story. You mentioned LSD and spirituality.

Yes, but nobody is saved apart from the gospel, so obviously the gospel was in effect.

"Then the problem is with your eysight, not his salvation."

Nope, eyes are working just fine. I can see right through people and spot a suspicious testimony a mile off. God has truly blessed me with great discernment abilities.

What a brilliant ability...
Maybe I should share with you all the conversion stories I know, and then you can deem which ones are acceptable and valid?

How far off can you spot Jesus?