Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[skater9269]

this is a huge thread!!!

 

[PaladinWithGun2]

One problem with that POV.
There are many things that we do that Do not build up His Kingdom, nore draw us cloer to God.

Going to the bathroom
Taking a shower
Sleeping
Enjoying a slice of birthday cake.
Listing to some country music.
And this list can go on & on.
Are we to stop doing the above becuse it dosn't draw us closer to God or build up His Kingdom ?

I think the POV is about desire, not action. Sleeping is necessary for the body,as is showering (thank God lol) and going to the bathroom. Wherever your heart lies, these things must happen. It is those actions in which place our desire and how we perceive those actions that is the battle line. Going to a country concert is not sin, but idolatry of a country celebrity that espouses a life other than that to which God calls us is. Could you not eat a slice of birthday cake and be praising God for the year he has given you and the promise of the one to come as you walk with him?

Sleeping too much is a sin (Look to the ant, you sluggard!), drinking too much is a sin (drunkards)...you get the picture. When we pursue anything beyond moderation, when we make that turn to doing something - ANYTHING - simply to gratify our desires with no thought of God, then we face the precipice of sin.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Very very true, Paladin.

The only caveat I'd add is "moderation" for some things is a resounding never. Murder, for instance, is one of those. There is no moderation for murder beyond never. Killing in war and in state punishment in accordance to upholding laws is another issue. But homicide is a resounding never for it to be "moderate".

God gave us our bodies. They belong to Him. He didn't give them to us for us to abuse and use in ways that won't bring Him glory. He gives us all the blessings in our lives; and it glorifies Him to enjoy all we have within reason and responsibilities. However, messing with ourselves in ways that are outside how we are designed is not glorifying. God set up marriage very carefully. Sex between a man a woman instantly makes them married in His eyes. Obviously, dealing with that side of life comes with many profound implications and limits.

Paladin put it aptly. Ask yourself, how can touching yourself glorify God and further His kingdom? Will it make a person more respectible and bring honor to the One we represent in this life? Hm? The answer is clear.

And no, there is no medical proof that it does anything beneficial. Infact, I can tell you that for us males it will actually lower our life spans by increasing the testosterone in our systems (which causes many life length lowering side effects and behavoral modifications such as enhanced aggression, lack of focus/concentration/patience, increased intolerance and territorialism, etc.)
Yeah, I'm working on my PhD in molecular biology and I've got to warn people to beware of statistics unless you get to see the raw data, experimental set up, and all the statisitcal calculations (which, of course, means you need to understand them). Otherwise, you must ignore them and avoid them, for how easy is it to mislead the ignorant for they are exceedingly gullible and not of their own fault since they lack knowledge? Your body will take care of itself in this area of life.

 

[Ave Maria]

Yes, masturbation is a sin. The Bible says not to lust. You can't touch without lusting.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Yes, masturbation is a sin. The Bible says not to lust. You can't touch without lusting.

You do error in not knowing the Truth, A person can touch without lusting, when i must, i can do this, and i do not lust, nor think an evil thought at all. Therefore the Holy Ghost does not convict me at all in doing so, because i did not commit any sin whatsoever. Also i would like to point out to you, it is not a sin for a person to lust after his/her own spouse, in doing so, one has not committed any sin whatsoever.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Lusting after anyone other then your spouse is a sin, this is True and is Scriptural.
Masturbation is not condemned in Scriptures, this is a True statement.
Masturbation is not a sin, unless a person lusts after anyone other then their spouse, then it becomes sin.
Getting an erection is not sinful. Getting an erection because you are lusting after someone other then your spouse, this is sinful.
i have told you the Truth concerning this topic, If you will not believe it, you do not believe Christ. i have not failed to tell you, what Christ has told me. Those who know His voice, know what i say is the Truth.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[zerosaiyaman]

How is it glorifying and edifying to the Lord?

 

[DiscipleDave]

How is it glorifying and edifying to the Lord?

How is using the bathroom, glorifying and edifying to the Lord, How is itching a misquito bite glorifying and edifying to the Lord? How is our desire to eat and drink when we are hungry and thirsty glorifying and edifying the Lord.
Many things our flesh desires or its normal functions of the body itself, does not glorify nor edify the Lord. We do not glorify or edify Christ with anything the flesh desires, for the flesh is of the world, and does that which is of the flesh, but our thoughts, this is what glorifies and edifies the Lord, our thinking is what glorifies and edifies the Lord, not itching a scratch, not eating, not drinking, not releaving one self of urine, not releaving oneself of sexual tension, these are all things the body desires, but our thoughts, even in the midst of doing these things, is what should glorify and edify the Lord, and not the actual deeds themself.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[SoundCard]

But to say masturbation is to be thrown in with something like using the bathroom, a natural function that we can't get around without fatal consequences, whereareas masturbation is a voluntary act? How can you do it without inviting lustful thoughts? Is it not inofitself a feeling of lust that brings it about? To say it can be justified simply because it's a natural feeling or occurence, I don't buy it. And to say it's our thoughts we have while doing the actions you used for example, the idea that comes to mind of focusing on good and right things while masturbation occurs just seems to be...very innapropriate.

 

[DiscipleDave]

But to say masturbation is to be thrown in with something like using the bathroom, a natural function that we can't get around without fatal consequences, whereareas masturbation is a voluntary act?

Urinating is a voluntary act also, but in holding it, it can cause injury. The body not releasing sexual pressures can also cause injury. It is a normal body function to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], the body was made to do so, even as urinating is a normal body function. You have to remember we are talking about if it is sinful or not. If one gets bit by a misquito, it is normal to scratch it. If the body's sexual tension is built up, it is normal to release it. Now how it is released is what determines if it is sinful or not, please note, the releasing of this sexual tention is not the sin, but in how it is released is what determines if it is sinful or not. Lusting is a sin, this is Scriptural, therefore if that release is done through lusting for someone other then your spouse then it is sinful, not because you released, but because you lusted.

How can you do it without inviting lustful thoughts?

It is not easy with humans, but with Christ all things are possible, are they not ?

Is it not inofitself a feeling of lust that brings it about?

No, it is not, what brings it about is friction, it is a physical act that brings it about, Go without sexual release for a month, then apply friction to your sexual member and while doing so, think of your bills, or your to-do list, and see if you do not achieve a release merely because of the friction. You see, people touch in excess, therefore are not able to achieve a release without lusting to achieve it. But i assure you with no doubts whatsoever, a person can touch without lusting, given enough time goes by, and enough sexual tention is built up. then it is very possible, and you will not commit the sin of lust in doing so.

To say it can be justified simply because it's a natural feeling or occurence, I don't buy it.

Whether you buy it or not, does not change the fact that it is True, It is natural because that is the way God made us naturally, God gave us sexual desire for us to share with our spouse, God gave us sexual drive, god gave us attraction. We have sexual organs because God gave them to us Naturally, Mastubation is done naturally in nature also, even children touch unawares. It is most definately a natural thing. HOW IT IS ACHEIVED is what is sinful or not sinful

And to say it's our thoughts we have while doing the actions you used for example, the idea that comes to mind of focusing on good and right things while masturbation occurs just seems to be...very innapropriate.

Regardless what it seems, does not change the Truth of it.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

 

[SoundCard]

Whether you buy it or not, does not change the fact that it is True, It is natural because that is the way God made us naturally, God gave us sexual desire for us to share with our spouse, God gave us sexual drive, god gave us attraction. We have sexual organs because God gave them to us Naturally, Mastubation is done naturally in nature also, even children touch unawares. It is most definately a natural thing. HOW IT IS ACHEIVED is what is sinful or not sinful

Yes, it's true God made it.
Sin corrupted it. We aren't working at full capacity here you must realize. To say it can be done without lust in mind? How can you honestly suggest that? It's a sexual thing, brought on by sexual thoughts, and is a sexual act! And to say what I said about having good and right thoughts while doing the act of masturbation, how is that anything short of perverse? Would it not be weird or wrong for me to be doing the natural act of urination on your couch? So to say, think about things of Lord while you do this, it will justify, that is an act that is downright shameful, and a dangerous a mindset to have to be quite frank.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Eh. Going to the bathroom is not voluntary. Eventually your smooth muscles will be forced to relax by the pressure buildup. It's if there is a defect in the system that stops a person from being able to physically urinate that you get horrible, deadly, consequences. But you cannot hold it in idefinitely by voluntary action of your own muscles.

Oiy, you cannot compare this to itching or eating. Things that are a necessity for persisting our daily life is of course glorifying to God. Living and surviving is glorifying to God, otherwise would we be alive in the first place? Our bodies are also corrupted by sin from their true original forms, so it isn't surprising there are strange quirks.

Also, I find the remark that it happens in nature to be quite ungrounded and total rumorous hearsay. Even if a few acts were observed in nature, of which I've seen no accounts in the complete sense, what are the frequency of such acts? What animals do such acts? Horses? Dogs? Dogs certainly lick that area, but that is a cleaning and/or submissive act, not an act for pleasure and nothing that causes them to go to completion. Seriously, observe animals first hand with one's own eyes will contridict any sort of "it's natural" plea. It's an "going out of your way" act to mess with the body, nothing that is a built in or necessary feature. Far far different from itching or going to the bathroom.

*shakes head* It's a complex issue, but I see no evidence that backs it up as permissible, and a mountain to the contrary. And as Paul says about eating unclean meat, that if there's a contention about it's correctness, just auto to not doing it. It's safest that way for everyone.

 

[Gukkor]

Yes, it's true God made it.
Sin corrupted it. We aren't working at full capacity here you must realize. To say it can be done without lust in mind? How can you honestly suggest that? It's a sexual thing, brought on by sexual thoughts, and is a sexual act! And to say what I said about having good and right thoughts while doing the act of masturbation, how is that anything short of perverse? Would it not be weird or wrong for me to be doing the natural act of urination on your couch? So to say, think about things of Lord while you do this, it will justify, that is an act that is downright shameful, and a dangerous a mindset to have to be quite frank.

You seem to suggest that sex itself is inherently sinful, given that you imply that something which is sexual in thought and deed must necessarily contain lust. Perhaps you didn't truly mean to convey such a concept, but reread what you typed for a moment, and surely you can see how that line of reasoning could be drawn from your statements. "Lust is sinful.---->Sexual things always contain lust---->Masturbation is a sexual thing---->Therefore, masturbation is sinful."

Purely from a logical standpoint, this train of thought makes sense. However, it also carries with it the heavy implication that NO sexual activities are free of sin. This in turn means that sex is sinful, and this can be proven categorically false through Scripture. So, if it is false that sexual activity is always sinful, then lust, generally regarded as being the primary sexual sin, must not always be present, and if lust is not always present in sexual activity in general, then it stands to reason masturbation without lust is indeed very possible.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

You seem to suggest that sex itself is inherently sinful, given that you imply that something which is sexual in thought and deed must necessarily contain lust. Perhaps you didn't truly mean to convey such a concept, but reread what you typed for a moment, and surely you can see how that line of reasoning could be drawn from your statements. "Lust is sinful.---->Sexual things always contain lust---->Masturbation is a sexual thing---->Therefore, masturbation is sinful."

Purely from a logical standpoint, this train of thought makes sense. However, it also carries with it the heavy implication that NO sexual activities are free of sin. This in turn means that sex is sinful, and this can be proven categorically false through Scripture. So, if it is false that sexual activity is always sinful, then lust, generally regarded as being the primary sexual sin, must not always be present, and if lust is not always present in sexual activity in general, then it stands to reason masturbation without lust is indeed very possible.

However, your logical deduction disregards the fact that all logic reasoning must be done with all proper contextual modifiers in place. Life, be it biology, sociology, human interactions, or whatever all have rules that depend on the contexts that they are within. Even the rules of physics are not absolute for every context at every moment at every place. Therefore, it's important to take into consideration that in the Bible all sexual activity outside of that which is with a spouse (or the special case of salvaging a family line so it won't go extinct by brothers for their desceased kin only in ancient times) is indeed considered immoral. Therefore, the modifier of "with spouse" must be applied to any discussion of sexual affairs. Namely that this modifier is a global one, potentially negating the negatives of the act and allowing it to be permissible in this specific, special context. Just as killing another human is permissible in the special context of protecting one's own life from the individual in question, or the lives of others.

So, in conclusion, because marriage is a specific, and special case that is stated to be the context within which only sexual things are permissible, one must reevaluate the argument you made and the logic that was used. Lust, then it can be reasoned, is always wrong unless within a controlled manner with a spouce, unless, even then, it is implied that lust has been gone away with for a purity of love. However, that is not specifically stated per ce in the bible, so we'll leave it out of any such calculations for the moment for the sake of simplicity.

 

[Gukkor]

However, your logical deduction disregards the fact that all logic reasoning must be done with all proper contextual modifiers in place. Life, be it biology, sociology, human interactions, or whatever all have rules that depend on the contexts that they are within. Even the rules of physics are not absolute for every context at every moment at every place. Therefore, it's important to take into consideration that in the Bible all sexual activity outside of that which is with a spouse (or the special case of salvaging a family line so it won't go extinct by brothers for their desceased kin only in ancient times) is indeed considered immoral. Therefore, the modifier of "with spouse" must be applied to any discussion of sexual affairs. Namely that this modifier is a global one, potentially negating the negatives of the act and allowing it to be permissible in this specific, special context. Just as killing another human is permissible in the special context of protecting one's own life from the individual in question, or the lives of others.

So, in conclusion, because marriage is a specific, and special case that is stated to be the context within which only sexual things are permissible, one must reevaluate the argument you made and the logic that was used. Lust, then it can be reasoned, is always wrong unless within a controlled manner with a spouce, unless, even then, it is implied that lust has been gone away with for a purity of love. However, that is not specifically stated per ce in the bible, so we'll leave it out of any such calculations for the moment for the sake of simplicity.

Good point, and I will reply, but first, for ease of reference, could you please state the specific passages which you believe disallow sexual activity outside of marriage? I think I can already guess at what you might say, but what I think is irrelevant to this question.

 

[andross77]

I'm surprised that this thread is so popular. Over 100 post and over 1700 views. wow!

are you really that surprised? I've heard stats where something like 90%+ of men touch and 75%+ of women do. Maybe those numbers were 95%+ and 85%+, i can't remember for sure. But i think most everyone has at some point and so it's a question on MANY people's minds (even more people have become desensitized to it and just think, eh, that's how it is).

 

[PaladinWithGun2]

What occurs to me is that anything that can cause another brother to stumble is to be avoided, so all it takes is the belief that it is wrong for it to be an issue, or am I being simplistic?

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Good point, and I will reply, but first, for ease of reference, could you please state the specific passages which you believe disallow sexual activity outside of marriage? I think I can already guess at what you might say, but what I think is irrelevant to this question.

For adultery (sex with any one besides your spouce (and touching yourself could be considered sex with yourself))

1st Corintians 6:9
1st Timothy 1:10
Exodus 20:14
Dueteronimy 5:18
Matthew 5:27, 5:28, 5:32, 15:19, 19:9, 19:18
Mark 7:21, 10:11, 10:12, 10:19
Luke 16:18, 18:20
John 8:4

Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." Note that last part is seperate from adultery and refers to something more.

All this just for starters. I don't have time to go through every book and scroung out all the verses.

Now, for more on sexual immorality and what I was saying also:

1st Corinthians 6:12-20 "'Everything is permissible for me'--but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible for me'--but I will not be mastered by anything. 'Food for the stomach and the stomach for food'--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have recieved from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." [itallics not in original; added for emphasis]

1st Corinthians 10:8 (lessons from the history of the jewish people) "We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did - and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died."

Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 5:3
Collosians 3:5
1st Thessalonians 4:3

Again, for starters.

And again, Paladin is totally right, that the issue, as with others that may be argued as to be matters of what is personally allowed within a person's level of Faith, must be regarded as a sin in any case where it makes a brother or sister in Christ stumble in regards to their own faith. Not to mention, that the case that it's an absolute sin is incredibly steep; and I would guess the only reason it's not there by direct name is that it isn't in the language of the time like that, and indeed is covered by sexual immorality, as all sex outside of marriage (before marriage, as after marriage it becomes adultery) is considered such.

Edit: Let us not get into legalism and the horrid trap it is! But let us not be fools either and try to justify what is wrong; as that is just as great an ill and will lead to downfall whatever the case. It is an issue many struggle with, so no wonder it is so strongly argued on all sides, but is it so hard to have selfcontrol? I fail at times, but I won't stop fighting and thus I grow stronger. We are being sanctified by the Lord in this life, is it HOLY to do these acts? Ask yourself that; as salvation and subsequent sanctification is about holiness and righteousness and purity before the Lord.

And what image do we display to the world around us? Do we display something that will bring people to Christ, or only make them comment about how we are the same in corruption as everyone else?

 

[Dyin2live]

At my school today (its a Christian school) We discussed masturbation and the teacher said God did not design us for this, and that we were designed only to have sex with our wives. And share the pleasure of the experience with them.

 

[PaladinWithGun2]

At my school today (its a Christian school) We discussed masturbation and the teacher said God did not design us for this, and that we were designed only to have sex with our wives. And share the pleasure of the experience with them.

And so true! Again, masturbation serves only to satisfy the self, not another, so what good is it to God?