## If anyone comes to Christ through your witness, they are, in a real way, coming through you.
Why may not Mary too be a means of coming to Him, when every other Christian can be a means or way to Him ?
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## If anyone comes to Christ through your witness, they are, in a real way, coming through you.Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.
So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.
## He "could have" done many things He did not do - but He did in actuality choose, & come through, Mary. God does not need Bible or Church either - but He employs both. We need them - just as we need Mary. No Mary = no Jesus = no salvation.So?
This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.
It seems better to just not, then.
## All that link gave me was the message "invalid thread specified"
## If anyone comes to Christ through your witness, they are, in a real way, coming through you.
Why may not Mary too be a means of coming to Him, when every other Christian can be a means or way to Him ?
But I deny anything saying that she worked with Christ to redeem the world. There is no way in Heaven or Hell anyone can read the Bible seriously and claim that.
'26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed [2] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you! [3] 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.
34 And Mary said to the angel, How will this be, since I am a virgin? [4]
35 And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born [5] will be called holythe Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said, Behold, I am the servant [6] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her."
Sorry, I see Mary working with God for our salvation.
So her giving birth to Jesus is what saved me from my sins? I could have sworn it was Jesus willingly going to the Cross, dying for humanity and facing the weight of the Wrath of God, then rising victoriously from the grave, that saved me. Hmm. Must have read the wrong Bible or something.
God could have chosen another vessel if He wanted to, many would have probrobly have volunteered
"could", "probrobly[sic]" and "would have" huh?
Well, we can't know that, can we, so since I'm not Paul Atreides, a Kwisatz Haderach, I'm not going to pretend that I can see across time and see what might have been/could be. I think I will simply continue to take the Theotokos' words at face value.
"All generations shall call me blessed"
--the Mother of God
YouTube - It Is Truly Meet
It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and all blameless and the Mother of our God. More honorable then the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare then the Seraphim. Thou who without stain bearest God the Word, and are truly Theotokos, we magnify thee!
Well, look at Sarah, she was laughing at the thought God would now give her this pleasure in respects to Isaac the Son (His only son) born of the promise, he called her on it too, nevertheless God performed His promise and we know theres nothing too hard for the Lord, if it was dependent on Sarah they'd probrobly be up poops crick without a paddle
Yes, but he had to Incarnate before he could be crucified. Did this really need to be explained? The Theotokos' submission to God facilitated everything that subsequently occurred.
So if I submit to God as a Christian, and speak the Gospel to someone, who has saved that person? Me speaking the words, or God, who is responsible for salvation alone. Christ alone gets the glory for Salvation, no matter who bore Him. He alone decided to go to the Cross. No one could have stopped Him,nor could have forced Him.
She bore him, yes, but He would have come even if she would have told God that she didn't want to bear the Child.
Jesus Christ is eternal. His plan since the beginning was to come. Mary was a created being, who was used in the plan, but should not be considered co-redemptrix (She had no say as to whether or not He would go to the cross).
And if we are to consider her so, why not consider others? Sure, she gave birth to him. But what about some random man who gave him food when he was hungry? That guy allowed Jesus to get nutrition, and thus allowed him to continue his life until the cross. Should we venerate that man too, for his role in the plan of salvation? I would hope not.
## Context is essential here - not of the words only, but, much more, of the realities they point to.The Church on Mary's Mediation
3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
"... just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."
Jesus said in John 6:44:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."
So wouldn't stating that we can't come to Christ except through Mary be blasphemous, since this statement puts her in the role of God?
And doesn't putting her in this role (that we MUST go through Mary) give her a godlike status, making her an idol?
But it wasn't Sarah who was selected as Theotokos, it was Mary. Your point, veracity aside, isn't salient.
## And what this means, needs to be understood, from the POV of those who say it. Would you go to a Catholic for an exposition of the "Five Solas" ? If not, why go to Protestants who take a dim view of Catholic ideas about Mary for an exposition of those ideas ?Mary fits the description of the bolded part, since (just like God) no one is able to come to Christ, except through her.
## No more blasphemous than the blasphemous teaching that a crucified man is God-with-us. Deuteronomy 21:23 curses Jesus by anticipation. This doesn't bother St. Paul in the slightest; or St. Peter - they both knew the verse: "Cursed is he that hangeth on a tree". Hebrews 13 exploits what this meant - it is not a problem, that Jesus went "outside the camp". On the contrary, this suggests a fresh line of thought to the author that helps him make his point.So it would appear, according to your own definition, that the statement about Mary in the OP, is blasphemous.
## The issue is, not what God is able to do - but, what He has, in fact, done.So?
This seems blasphemous to me, like God is incapable of making Christ human, except through a human woman. Yes, God chose Mary as a vessel, but it's not like God Almighty had to have a human woman. Thus, Mary really isn't a factor in coming to Christ, since the infinate God could've used any method He chose.
It seems better to just not, then.
## In fairness to the OP - the vessel idea is more respectful than it looks - St. Paul is a "vessel of election" (= chosen vessel) in Acts 9.15. He has a bit to say about "vessels of honour" & "vessels of dishonour" in Romans, in his treatment of election. And his imagery is taken from Jeremiah. See also:Nonsense. He would say, who says that she is? Being polite to my mum is not the same thing as calling her a god, and being civil is not blasphemy.
On the other hand, ignoring her completely and pretending she does not exist is highly disrespectful. As is any suggestion whatever of calling her 'just a vessel.'
## Nice !
Kontakion 1
To Thee, the champion leader, do we Thy servants dedicate a hymn of victory and thanksgiving, as ones who have been delivered from eternal death by the Grace of Christ our God Who was born of Thee and by Thy maternal mediation before Him. As Thou dost have invincible might, free us from all misfortunes and sorrowful circumstances who cry aloud:
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!
Ikos 1
An archangel was sent from Heaven to declare unto the Theotokos: Rejoice, announcing the divine Incarnation of Christ, Who desired to be born of Her, the Joy of the whole world which was languishing in sorrow. Wherefore, heavy laden with sins, but having obtained the hope of salvation in Thee, we cry out to Thee with compunction:
Rejoice, goodwill of God toward sinners!
Rejoice, strong help for those who repent before the Lord God!
Rejoice, restoration of fallen Adam!
Rejoice, redemption of the tears of Eve!
Rejoice, Thou that dost remove the stain of sin!
Rejoice, laver that dost wash the conscience clean!
Rejoice, Thou that didst bear the Redeemer Who freely cleanseth us of our transgressions!
Rejoice, all-wonderous reconciliation of all with God!
Rejoice, bridge that dost truly lead us from death to life!
Rejoice, Thou that savest the world from the flood of sin!
Rejoice, heavenly ladder by which the Lord descended to us!
Rejoice, cause of deification for all!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!
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