Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

[shinbits]

The Matthew verse uses the term : egeiro, to rise up. The word (when it doesn't mean 'get up (from bed) and go out'), refers to what is done in public (related to the word for a public place, the agora). It is a specific kind of action, such as speaking in public; it refers to his public ministry which is prophetic (and includes baptism). Mary's role was carried out in private; she was not 'preaching' in public.

The comparative Christ uses refers to a particular role - it is not a generally applied comparative.

It was that particular role that made him greater than any human born from a woman, including Mary.

 

[boswd]

the funny thing is you have yet to prove your point. Of what's IN Scripture. That directly contradicts it. You only are taking your own interpretation of Scripture which is wrong basically, to prove your are right.

You object to the term Queen for Mary. So where IN Scripture does it say she is NOT.

you objected to Christ being conceived and yet it was proved IN Scripture he was.
Wrong again on your part.

You object that Mary gave Christ his Humanity. So where IN scripture does it state that his Humanity was NOT given to him through Mary.

by you repeating yourself by saying fallacious arguement on every occasion doesn't hold up your point. Which again for the 4th time I might add you OP was addressed on the very first page, and reposted by me a little wihile ago.

being deliberately obtuse as to hold your position in seeking the only answer you WANT TO HEAR does not make it you right.

Pride is silly thin aint it?

 

[Thekla]

And if may I add, it is interesting to note what Jesus said in this situation:

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:27-28 KJV)
​

Here a woman tried to elevate Mary above the crowd. Jesus says the average Christian (the ones that hear and keep the word of God) are equally blessed with Mary.

We all know that Mary heard the word of God announced by Gabriel, and kept it - otherwise, Jesus Christ would not have been born of her. The word translated here as "rather" indicates an agreement (it occurs 3 other times in the NT, check the way it is translated) and is used as an affirmative with a further clarification (check Plato and others writers on this matter).

He does not deny that she is blessed.

There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. (Mark 3:31-35 KJV)
​

Now here was an opportunity for Christ to ascend Mary above the average Christian, but He says the contrary: she isn't above, but equal; because just like Mary is a mother for Jesus, in the same manner all that "do the will of God" are His mother. Just as a mother Mary is for Him is any Christian to Him as well.

Yes, but the context here is that we are to be adopted as children of God -- we are all spiritual family in this regard. As for equality, as we see with John the Baptist, it is not claimed that there is an equality. Instead, the emphasis here is the relationship through Christ.

There were to possibilities:

1. Jesus elevating Mary above the ordinary.
2. Another person elevating Mary above the ordinary.

Both situations happened and Jesus' response was the same. When He could have elevated her He said that every Christian is a mother for Him. When another person elevated her He said that all that do the will of the Father (i.e.: Christians) are just as blessed as she is. Thus we can say that if you elevate Mary to the status of "Queen of Heaven", all Christians are Queen of Heaven. If you descend her to the status of a filthy dog (dogs are an allegory for Gentiles, Christians aren't Gentiles), then all Christians are filthy dogs.

In other words, Mary is as blessed as Christians are. But yet, some, like the Roman Catholic Church, for example, have elevated Mary above the normal Christian. As an example, normal veneration of saints is "dulia", but Mary has hiperdulia. Isn't that elevating more than we should? Didn't Christ say that just as blessed as she is is any one that does the will of the Father?

The Holy Scriptures attest that Mary is "blessed among woman"; that is a comparative. Did Luke record error ?

 

[Thekla]

It was that particular role that made him greater than any human born from a woman, including Mary.

In Matthew it says " among those born of women there has not "arisen" - gone out to public ministry - one that is greater ...".

Mary is not included in those who did public ministry; she is not included in the comparative group.

 

[Thekla]

That's not what the Scripture says. Jesus isn't merely saying that John is greater than the prophets; he clearly says that John is "more" than a prophet, meaning don't even compare him to just prophets. That's why Jesus then uses the term "born of women", to include of all humankind, which Jesus says John is greater than.

And that, of course, includes Mary.

Why else would Christ inlcude "born of women"? Just to use pretty words? No, Jesus had a purpose in doing that. And that purpose was to compare John to all mankind, not just to other prophets.

Both Luke and Matthew provide a context and statements that refer to public ministry/role. This is the context; it is not a general comparison.

 

[shinbits]

In Matthew it says " among those born of women there has not "arisen" - gone out to public ministry - one that is greater ...".

Mary is not included in those who did public ministry; she is not included in the comparative group.

You'd have to show that "arisen" only refers to those who've "gone out to public ministry" before you prove your point. As of right now, it's just a baseless assertion.

 

[shinbits]

Both Luke and Matthew provide a context and statements that refer to public ministry/role. This is the context; it is not a general comparison.

Most translations of that verse disagree with you.

 

[addo]

Christ's comment refers to our adoption as children of God; Mary is included among those who are adopted, but that does not negate her particular role in the history of salvation.

What I'm saying is that does not give her any special kind of elevation just because she was Jesus' physical mother.

what you say and what you do apparently are two different things.

Where does Scripture say the mother of the King is no longer Queen.
Where does it say Mary was NOT bodily assumed into heaven.

so it basically comes down to is from your side "Its not IN Scripture"
which the irony is the last time you tried to use that about Christ being conceived it was directly pointed out in the scriptures only to have you try and spin it off as you were proven wrong. alas via scripture.

let's face it that has been your line of defense whether you want to admit to it or not. the "Show me in scripture" which translates to "if it aint there it didn't happen"

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. ~Proverbs 14:12
​

Why aren't there "ways" but "way"? Because there is a way of life, and a way of death. And that's it (in the same way there are only two gates: the narrow for life and the wide for death; Matthew 7:13-14). Also God said: See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. (Deuteronomy 30:15) Thus there are only two ways. If you are not in the life, you are in the death. If you are not in the way of life you are in the way of death.

What is the way? Jesus is the way (John 14:6). What is the life? Jesus is the life (John 14:6). Since the way and the life are both Jesus, and Jesus is also truth (John 14:6), and as a result, the way and the life are truth. What is truth? The word of God is truth (John 17:17). Therefore, we can logically conclude that the way, and the life, is the word of God. Those that follow the way of life, follow the word of God and keep it. Those that follow "the way which seemeth right unto man", are not following the word of God, are not on the right way, are not following the truth and neither life, thus they'll die eventually.

What do we know for sure that is the word of God? The Bible. Can we be 100% sure that any other book (or word) outside the Bible is coming from God? No.

My point is that there are "ways" which seem right to man. They don't seem to lead to death. But they are not the way, they are not the life, they are not the truth, they are not the word, and they will lead you to death.

I'll give you an advice: it's better to be safe, than to risk. I mean, I don't know if it is alright to pray to the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure yet. Thus, to be safe, I don't pray to the Holy Spirit; I never prayed to the Holy Ghost, but I prat only to God the Father. Jesus prayed to Him so I'll be perfectly safe. It's better to be safe than to risk. Sometimes I doubted if it's okay to even pray to Jesus. Thus I prayed only to the Father. Was I doing something wrong? I doubt it.

If it's not in the Bible, what gives you assurance that it's not one of those "ways" which lead to death? Tell me: what? Words of men?

It's better to be safe, and not to take risks. Or isn't it?

 

[Thekla]

You'd have to show that "arisen" only refers to those who've "gone out to public ministry" before you prove your point. As of right now, it's just a baseless assertion.

Check it out, then -- what does the word "arisen" refer to ?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

The first three definitions refer to the physical action of arise; the 4th definition (which Thayers says includes the Matthew passage we are discussing) means to "raise up ... cause to appear" before the public.

 

[Thekla]

Most translations of that verse disagree with you.

See the definition in Thayers that I linked.

I will add the definition from Langenscheidt (which is not available online, tmk):
egeiro - (vb) to awaken, to rouse; to stir, to excite; to raise

The verb, when not used for getting up, waking up, is to stir up/wake up ... John began his public ministry in exactly this way. "Repent !" he announces, he rouses the conscience from sleep and calls for return to the Ways of God - to make straight the paths.

 

[boswd]

All of those Scriptures were given. <staff edit>.

whatever! you're just a typical short sighted Evangelical who has no desire to try to understand what it is you object to but just to only attack based on preaching done by preachers who have no business preaching in the first place, preaching Gods word in these "churchs" that spring up every month when someone diecides for themselves they want to start their own ministry.

 

[laconicstudent]

​

 

[MariaRegina]

Mod Hat on

This thread has had several posts removed.

If your post has been deleted and you did not receive a PM,
then this is your notice
that you replied to a post that has been removed.

Please review the rules, particularly:

Preamble:
Messages posted to this board must be polite
and free of personal attacks,threats, crude or
sexually-explicit language, rude comments, and innuendo.

Flaming
You will not insult, belittle, mock, use derogatory nicknames
in reference to other members,
or personally attack other members or groups of members.
Do not goad another member or start call-out threads.
Do not state or imply that another member
or group of members
who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
Avoid using sarcasm to attempt any of the above.
This flaming rule also applies to public religious figures.

If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind.
Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button.


Thanks and God bless you all.

Mod Hat off​

 

[Dorothea]

He didn't give His final blow yet. Proof?

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. ~1 Corinthians 15:26

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ~Revelation 20:14
​

Death will be completely eliminated after all other Christ's enemies will be defeated. Death will be the last. And it happens after Jesus' second coming. Jesus didn't return yet. "every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7). I haven't seen when "He cometh with clouds" (Rev 1:7). Did you? I doubt it. Thus death hasn't disappeared yet. It's like in that video game, "Dragon Age: Origins": you have defeated the dragon, it can't do anything else, it is dying; but it's still there, you still have to give it the final blow. Christ will give death the final blow after the His second coming.
Isn't she? Or, just to use an euphemism, I'll say: "isn't Mary asleep?"
I never said that so I won't comment.
According to the Bible, it is wrong to not have sex if you're married (if you can, of course). Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. (1 Corinthians 7:3-5) Why would Mary keep Joseph "burning", as shown in verse 9? To say it openly: if Mary denied Joseph the right to have sex with him, then she did something un-Biblical. And why wouldn't Joseph want to give Jesus a family (with brothers and sisters)? Wouldn't that be beautiful? Wouldn't that increase Jesus' experience as a "normal" man?

Besides, what would be wrong with that after all? And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply (Genesis 1:28) It's a blessing, not a curse! Why would it be wrong? You are holding very much to the belief that it would be wrong for Mary to have other children apart from Jesus, or aren't you?I still cannot understand how is calling Mary "asleep" and saying she had other children (which is a blessing, btw) disrespectful.
___

Congrats, by the way. In one day you already wrote more that 29 pages on this thread .... and yesterday there were only 11.

Your theology is very different from mine, obviously, and I would say, from my perspective, incorrect. Why did Christ die on the cross? To conquer death and sin (sin = death). Which means, once He died on the Cross and descended into hades and bound Satan and resurrected on the Third Day, death was aobolished, Those righteous in the tombs who were waiting for Christ were released and rose to heaven. No longer did people return to the ground (dust). Christ conquered death so that we now can rise and be with Him after we pass on from here.

You also do not understand Mary's purpose, nor Joseph's purpose. Her purpose was to bore Christ. Her sole purpose was to bore our Savior into this world. Once that happened, she gave her life to following her Son. It's common sense, of course, that anybody who had carried God in their womb would be changed forever. Although Mary was always a righteous woman from the time she was little. She spent much time in the temple and really had no desire to meet a man and marry in the first place.

 

[laconicstudent]

Although Mary was always a righteous woman from the time she was little. She spent much time in the temple and really had no desire to meet a man and marry in the first place.

Troparion (Tone 4)
Today is the preview of the good will of God,
Of the preaching of the salvation of mankind.
The Virgin appears in the temple of God,
In anticipation proclaiming Christ to all.
Let us rejoice and sing to her: Rejoice,
0 Divine Fulfillment of the Creator's dispensation.

Kontakion (Tone 4)
The most pure Temple of the Savior;
The precious Chamber and Virgin;
The sacred Treasure of the glory of God,
Is presented today to the house of the Lord.
She brings with her the grace of the Spirit,
Therefore, the angels of God praise her:
"Truly this woman is the abode of heaven."
​

 

[Dorothea]

​

Troparion (Tone 4)
Today is the preview of the good will of God,
Of the preaching of the salvation of mankind.
The Virgin appears in the temple of God,
In anticipation proclaiming Christ to all.
Let us rejoice and sing to her: Rejoice,
0 Divine Fulfillment of the Creator's dispensation.​

Kontakion (Tone 4)
The most pure Temple of the Savior;
The precious Chamber and Virgin;
The sacred Treasure of the glory of God,
Is presented today to the house of the Lord.
She brings with her the grace of the Spirit,
Therefore, the angels of God praise her:
"Truly this woman is the abode of heaven."​

Most Holy Theotokos, please pray to your Son for us.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

I have not belittled Mary. For she is indeed my sister in Christ..What she is not is my mother nor my queen.

I have not belittled Mary either. She is not the greatest human who ever lived. She was never divine and she is not divine now. She does not pray to God or "go to" Christ on our behalf. She is not the "Queen of Heaven" nor is she a co-redeemer with Christ. She was a woman, born in sin, just like every other human being in history, except for Christ Himself. She died just like everyone other human being in history, including Christ Himself. Unlike Christ though, she did not ascend into heaven. And she was not a perpetual virgin, because the Bible says she had other children after Jesus. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says she was or is to be prayed to or even revered to the status of Christ. She was humble and obedient to God. She called herself "the handmaid of the Lord." She knew she needed a Savior. She said, "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47). If she had been born without sin then she would not have needed a Savior. If she was so important to salvation or to the Christian faith than God would have mentioned something about her after the Book of Acts. Wouldn't you think?

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Most Holy Theotokos, please pray to your Son for us.

Why not just pray to Him yourself? Just asking...

 

[Thekla]

What I'm saying is that does not give her any special kind of elevation just because she was Jesus' physical mother.

It is not just because she was his physical mother (and, if I can find it, there is the same phrase used in the OT*), but because she heard the word of God and kept it that she became the mother of Jesus Christ.

Christ's statement is not in contradiction with the earlier statement of Elizabeth ("blessed are you among woman", a comparison to the degree of blessing with all women, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb").

Either Mary is comparatively blessed among all women, or Luke has recorded an error.

* found it:
"And God gave help to you, and blessed you with the blessing of heaven above, and the blessing of earth having all things; because of the blessing of the breasts and the womb ..." Genesis 49:25

 

[laconicstudent]

Why not just pray to Him yourself? Just asking...

Why do you assume she doesn't?