Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
What does the above mean??Hear what Peter, your (alleged) first Pope wrote:
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Peter must have been the same sort of "Protestant" that Saint Augustine was - a complete monergist.
Hi JLH,,,GodsGrace101: What you say can be true. It can also be true that Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of and entrusted her to John. I just doubt that John needed a spiritual mother. He did not live with her indefinitely...he preached the gospel just like the other Apostles did.
JL: I agree Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of as she had no children to care for her. Mary is also called by the fathers the new Eve who is mother of all the living.
GodsGrace101: I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God. However, we here are adults, so let's look at this in a more mature way.
Mary could have said no..... And here we come face to face with God's sovereignty and our free will. Mary freely said Yes....I agree. But was she not chosen by God? If she was chosen by God ,,, how could her Yes be of her own free will?
JL: If she couldn’t say no, then she had no free will and we are all robots. God is sovereign=supreme power but he is not a tyrant. A tyrant would force people as they have no concern but for themselves. God, who could force, is love and wants our free will love offering. He doesn’t want robots but love from his creatures. A free will act to God is an expression of faith and love.
GodsGrace101: Notice what Gabriel says to her in Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus"
Does this sound like a request or like a command? Gabriel is telling her what is going to happen... BUT, right after that, she gives her free will YES to him. This happens to be one of the most difficult things to understand about God's will always being done...and our free will to choose.
JL: It sounds like an all knowing God knows, the answer will be a free will yes. He knew Mary’s answer when he told Satan in Gn3:15.
[Gn3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.]k
If human beings have no free will would it be just to create billions of people, to be lost, who are forced by God’s sovereignty to sin and never able to repent? How can a sinner be held responsible for his sins if he has no free will?
I can’t quite understand where certain Protestants come up with sovereignty means can’t be resisted. God wills all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved. Does that mean God is not sovereign? No, it simply means he gives us free will choices.
[1Tm2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]k
Why pray for others, if there is no free will, what’s the point? Why not eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, having no free will to choose life or death.
Duet30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
I agree with you. I'm not a calvinist.GodsGrace101:
Do you know which father said this?JL: I agree Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of as she had no children to care for her. Mary is also called by the fathers the new Eve who is mother of all the living.
She could be called the New Eve....this doesn't bother me in the least.
She is also the New Ark of the Covenant....ditto.
I agree. I'm not a determinist.JL: If she couldn’t say no, then she had no free will and we are all robots. God is sovereign=supreme power but he is not a tyrant. A tyrant would force people as they have no concern but for themselves. God, who could force, is love and wants our free will love offering. He doesn’t want robots but love from his creatures. A free will act to God is an expression of faith and love.
What I was saying is that SOMETIMES God DID choose someone for a specific purpose. Think about it: Abraham, Jonah, Moses, Pharaoh, Mary, Judas
and others.
My point being that,yes, God is sovereign but we also have free will and we must come to terms with this in a way we can understand. IOW,,, how does God USE our free will to achieve His ends?
JL: It sounds like an all knowing God knows, the answer will be a free will yes. He knew Mary’s answer when he told Satan in Gn3:15.
[Gn3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.]k
If human beings have no free will would it be just to create billions of people, to be lost, who are forced by God’s sovereignty to sin and never able to repent? How can a sinner be held responsible for his sins if he has no free will?
I can’t quite understand where certain Protestants come up with sovereignty means can’t be resisted. God wills all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved. Does that mean God is not sovereign? No, it simply means he gives us free will choices.
[1Tm2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]k
Why pray for others, if there is no free will, what’s the point? Why not eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, having no free will to choose life or death.
Duet30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
What does the above mean??
What point are you making?
Who do YOU believe was the first Pope?
@bbbbbbb
Where did I say otherwise?The point is that it is God who is responsible for human salvation. He is the one Who sent His beloved Son to die for our sins. He is the One who sent His Spirit to draw his chosen ones to Himself. As Jonah exclaimed, "Salvation is of the Lord!" (Jonah 2:9).
Did I assert this?The idea that God has predestined his chosen people is woven throughout the Bible and is hardly a "Protestant" invention, as you asserted.
There never was a Pope?There never was a Pope nor ever has been. The whole concept of Popery was devised and developed by the Roman Catholic Church. It is foreign to all other branches of Christianity.
Hear what Peter, your (alleged) first Pope wrote:
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Peter must have been the same sort of "Protestant" that Saint Augustine was - a complete monergist.
No...you've misunderstood me.I GodsGrace101: I agree with you. I'm not a calvinist. Sovereignty just means that God rules over all and that He can do whatever He wants to do...EVEN THOUGH we have free will. His sovereignty cannot be resisted....but His grace can. Think on that.
JL: I would say His sovereignty can be resisted but not overpowered.
GodsGrace101: As to Mary being chosen... God knew she would say yes.
JL: Yes
GodsGrace101: But was this not the right time for Jesus to be born?
JL: Yes
GodsGrace101: Did Mary decide it was the right time or God?
JL: The Lord
GodsGrace101: Wasn't she prepared for this? Virgin birth, good mother, etc.
JL: I don’t know that God prepared her any differently than any virgin for giving birth or being a good mother.
GodsGrace101: And she was born immaculate.
JL: yes
GodsGrace101: Wasn't this also a preparation that SHE had nothing to do with?
JL: Yes, and God in His foreknowledge knew, all the above, and that Mary would by free will say yes. God never by His sovereign power made her say yes.
GodsGrace101: I'm not fighting with you... just making some points you might want to think about. It makes us grow in our knowledge and broadens our horizons. Good stuff to think about.
JL: So, you are trying to tell me, by the above questions, God by His sovereign power made Mary say yes to be mother of Christ.
My answer would be, God in His foreknowledge knew how Mary or any being will freely act at any second of their life, even from the beginning of creation and He works with that free will not contrary to it.
No...you've misunderstood me.
I said: It's difficult to reconcile God's sovereignty with man's free will.
We cannot resist God's sovereignty as you've stated.
God is sovereign...it's an attribute of His...it's not something we can resist.
That would be like saying that your neighbor has red hair but you resist it.
What you're speaking of is GOD'S WILL.
For instance, it is God's will that all men be saved....
1 Timothy 2:4
But all men are not saved because they resist this will of God.
However, somehow or other....in the final analysis, God's will is what will be accomplished, somehow --- you could think on this or not. No problem.
Hebrews 13:20-21 speaks to this will of God and says how we should follow it. Does this take away our free will? NO!
I agree with you that God works with our free will.
Maybe we're saying the same thing using different words....
I consider myself to be a synergist....Do you consider yourself to be a synergist or a monergist?
I consider myself to be a synergist....
Why?
I don't think monergism is heresy since heresy means what the majority does not believe. Many Christians are monergistic, although I don't understand how this could be.Sometimes i engage with synergists here at CF who self-identify as monergists, which tends to confuse our discussions considerably. I definitely perceive you as a synergist, although i self-identify as a monergist. I think that this will enable our discussion to proceed comfortably, unless you perceive monergism as utter heresy. BTW, I have many Christian friends who are synergists in one form or another.
I don't think monergism is heresy since heresy means what the majority does not believe. Many Christians are monergistic, although I don't understand how this could be.
This is my understanding:
Synergism means that man has a cooperating role in his salvation.
God invites man to salvation, and it is up to man to accept that invitation,
to enter into the earthy Kingdom of God (now) and to be a disciple of Jesus.
Could you please tell me your understanding of monergism?
Then why are we told to obey God? If it is HE that is doing everything?Your definition of synergism certainly aligns with my own understanding of it. By contrast, monergism is the belief that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God through the Holy Spirit alone.
Then why are we told to obey God? If it is HE that is doing everything?
Does God do the obeying for us?
Perhaps the best way to look at this is relational and parental, since most of the language in the Bible that talks of God and his dealings with man are in that mode. If we look at God as a father, then he is responsible for our creation, for our continuing sustenance, for our education and morality, and yes, for our discipline. He gives us what is needed to grow; but does not force growth upon us. He gives us guidance in what is wrong and right; but does not stop us when we choose to do wrong. Like a good parent, he realizes that the only form of discipline that is sustaining is active discipline where the person learns to discipline themselves and not be the object of someone else's discipline. If seen in that mode the only extremes are extremes of love and the purely mechanical nature of monergism or synergism is ignored because they just don't apply to a truly relational existence.Good questions. To put it another way, are we merely puppets in God's hands such that we bear no responsibility for our actions given the fact that God is the One who has caused us to do them? Only extreme fringes of monergists might contend that humans are merely robots programmed by God to do His will. I see pure monergism and pure synergism as opposites along a spectrum. Taken to their logical conclusions, both become extremely illogical, to say the least.
To counter your questions, one might ask what, if any, role does God play in human affairs? Some might say that God, loving humanity, sent His Son to die for our sins and now the rest is up to us. He did His part and now we need to do our part, which is to merit our salvation by earning it through our good works. The logical question is whether God is incapable or merely indifferent to actually saving any individual.
But you didn't explain how either M or S is illogical if brought to their extreme.Good questions. To put it another way, are we merely puppets in God's hands such that we bear no responsibility for our actions given the fact that God is the One who has caused us to do them? Only extreme fringes of monergists might contend that humans are merely robots programmed by God to do His will. I see pure monergism and pure synergism as opposites along a spectrum. Taken to their logical conclusions, both become extremely illogical, to say the least.
To counter your questions, one might ask what, if any, role does God play in human affairs? Some might say that God, loving humanity, sent His Son to die for our sins and now the rest is up to us. He did His part and now we need to do our part, which is to merit our salvation by earning it through our good works. The logical question is whether God is incapable or merely indifferent to actually saving any individual.
But you didn't explain how either M or S is illogical if brought to their extreme.
However, I will answer your questions.
If God sent His Son to die for us, it means we do not merit salvation by good works. In fact, no works we do can please God...only faith pleases God.
Ephesians 2:8 We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH...it is God's grace that saves us....through our faith, and this not of works. And what is grace but UNMERITED favor and love.
God is not incapable of saving anyone,,,but doesn't He require our approval?
John 3:16 Whosoever believes in Him....It is our choice to believe in Him.
And God is NOT indifferent to saving any particular individual because God would want all to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And Jesus tells us that He will draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32
. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
The whole world will not be saved because not all will accept the invitation....however, it would be God's wish.
Does this make Him a weak God because He doesn't get what He wishes? No! Because man has the free will to accept or deny God.
Sure. I know this verse is used by universalists...but I also gave the reason why I do NOT take it to mean all men are saved. It is still a choice we make by our reply to God.You have provided the scriptural defense use to support universalism, but that is not the point of this post.
I'm sure you know much more about this than I do.Logic can be used in a wide variety of ways, so that either extreme of monergism or synergism is internally logical. That said, both extremes lead to heresy.
Hmmm. I see. Well, I guess anything brought to an extreme is not a good thing....the right, Fascism.With synergism, the extreme is that God is either unwilling or unable to save anyone. He absolutely needs them to save themselves, by one means or another. That could be as simplistic as repeating a rote prayer to performing any number of extreme religious and/or good works or giving all of one's worldly goods, as Jesus implied with His response to the rich young ruler. The heresy is that the person and work of Jesus Christ is secondary, at best, in this extreme.
This is a reason why I don't believe the reformed faith is correct....it removes man's responsibility for sin.With monergism, the extreme is that God has sovereignly willed all things without exception. Paul certainly made that clear in Romans 9:14-24. Man thus bears no responsibility for sins which he never knowingly and willingly committed because man's will does not exist in extreme monergism, having been completely superseded by God's will.
OK,,,but you have to lean in one direction or other....The reality is that the vast majority of Christians, including myself, are neither complete synergists nor complete monergists.
Sure. I know this verse is used by universalists...but I also gave the reason why I do NOT take it to mean all men are saved. It is still a choice we make by our reply to God.
I'm sure you know much more about this than I do.
I know that calvinists are monergistic because they believe God does everything for us. He probably even obeys us for us. Right. Determinism means God has predestined everything. I know I'm a synergist because man must cooperate. I don't know what heresies either one would lead to....
Hmmm. I see. Well, I guess anything brought to an extreme is not a good thing....the right, Fascism.
The left, Communism.
God is sovereign and could do WHATEVER HE WISHES....after all, it is God that created everything...I think he could save everybody if HE WANTED TO. But His plan is different....He offers, we reply.
Works don't save but they become an action that is taken by those that are saved because our faith requires action. Faith without works is a dead faith.
Jesus being secondary? I don't understand this.
Those that are synergists believe they are more important than Jesus??
This is a reason why I don't believe the reformed faith is correct....it removes man's responsibility for sin.
OK,,,but you have to lean in one direction or other....
That's like saying I'm not liberal and I'm not conservative. You don't have to agree with EVERYTHING conservatives believe....but you have to choose which side you're more aligned with.
I'm always told I'm an Arminian. I don't even know who Arminus was or what he believed.
Maybe this is why labels are not very good to use?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?