Oral Tradition is very much amoeba-like in that it consists of whatever the leadership of a particular denomination such as your says it is. It is fluid and subject to evolving doctrines and trends.
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That's becasue you have it backwards. Scripture is found in Oral Tradition, not the other way around.
it is equally disingenuous to assert only Catholics believe in purging after death.It is disingenuous to assert that the Orthodox belief in purging after death is synonymous with the Catholic dogma of Purgarptory
thank to for confirming my post.The Orthodox belief is much less clearly articulated and is not a dogma requisite for all members of the Orthodox Church.
there is nothing dogmatised that ain't in divine revelation. You of course can try to prove otherwise.You have no divine revelation telling you exactly the terms of a place known as Purgatory which is dogmatised in your religion.
it is equally disingenuous to assert only Catholics believe in purging after death.
thank to for confirming my post.
there is nothing dogmatised that ain't in divine revelation. You of course can try to prove otherwise.
Since you didnt object to my statement, I take it as you agree with me. As far as fluid beliefs, dont look much beyond protestantismOral Tradition is very much amoeba-like in that it consists of whatever the leadership of a particular denomination such as your says it is. It is fluid and subject to evolving doctrines and trends.
Since you didnt object to my statement, I take it as you agree with me. As far as fluid beliefs, dont look much beyond protestantism
thank you for revising the initial false claim.I certainly never said that only Catholics believe in purging after death. Some Jews do, as well, not to mention several non-Christian religions. The concept is hardly unique to any particular religion. What is unique to Catholicism is the dogma of Purgatory
really, the Catholic Church is quite specific on defining purgatory? Then why did you say this?What is unique to Catholicism is the dogma of Purgatory. Purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church is quite specific
Today there is no clear consensus within the Catholic Church concerning exactly what Purgatory is and what it is not.
it was defined in a council prior to Trent.I agree with you that your church has defined scripture contrary to the Council of Trent which actually specifically stated the books contained within the canon of
Is there a point here?Today, however, Catholic theology has demoted written scripture into that vast, amoeba-like thing called Oral Tradition, such that when a priest holds up a Bible during mass and loudly proclaims, "This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord. This is the Word of the Lord." what he really means is that the Bible is actually a subset of the Word of the Lord.
thank you for revising the initial false claim.
really, the Catholic Church is quite specific on defining purgatory? Then why did you say this?
I guess one of these two statements is correct.
it was defined in a council prior to Trent.
Is there a point here?
Ok then.Actually, this seems to be a both/and reality where both mutually contradictory statements are true
as you have pointed out, your statements can be true and false at the same time.The point is simply that Oral Tradition is so utterly ill-defined, that, try as one will, one can never determine exactly what or what it does not contain, either in the past nor in the present
as you have pointed out, your statements can be true and false at the same time.
Yes what you say about purgagtory and Mary is correct and spot on. She is coredemtrix in that way. But the way reason why she is coredemprtix is her role as Second Eve. This is something the early Fathers of the Church like the epsitle of Mathetes to Diognetus(130 A.d) and St. Justin Martyr(150's) and St. Ireneaus(180's) saw. They saw that God in Mary and Jesus recapitulated what happened in the fall. This is the beauty of it. She co-redeems with Christ by her yes to Gabriel and her willingness to bring Jesus the savior into the world.So, the Catholic afterlife has an extra dimension compared to Protestant/similar denominations, namely Purgatory. Based on my reading of Dante's Purgatorio, I came up with an idea for how Mary might be described as a "Co-Redemptrix" in such a way as does not imply equality with Christ or even a role in Christ's direct work of redemption as such. Basically, my idea is that there is an analogy between being saved from Hell, and being liberated from Purgatory, such that Mary plays a special role in accelerating the purification of souls in Purgatory, wherefore she is a "Co-Redemptrix." Christ is the only one Who saves souls from the fire of Hell, and He also is the only one Who makes it possible for souls to enter into Purgatory in the first place, but once souls are there, Mary is able to do something personal in herself, that "redeems" those souls from the lesser fire in question.
I realize the title in question is not dogmatic for the RCC so it might be something of a moot point or whatever, but I have a very high Mariology so I am interested in "promoting the cause," so to speak.
Yes what you say about purgagtory and Mary is correct and spot on. She is coredemtrix in that way. But the way reason why she is coredemprtix is her role as Second Eve. This is something the early Fathers of the Church like the epsitle of Mathetes to Diognetus(130 A.d) and St. Justin Martyr(150's) and St. Ireneaus(180's) saw. They saw that God in Mary and Jesus recapitulated what happened in the fall. This is the beauty of it. She co-redeems with Christ by her yes to Gabriel and her willingness to bring Jesus the savior into the world.
Here is a demonstration of this as new eve.
Mary as New Eve:
Old Testament:
· In Genesis Eve is described as a "Women"(Gen 3:13-16) who disobeyed God.
· Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate.
· The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil Gen 3:1-5 )
· they choose freely to disobey God
· They eat one food from one tree(Gen 3:3) that would cause death for a whole race.
New Testament recapitulation
· In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel LK 1:28)
· This one woman(Mary) freely chooses to obey and accept God's plan for her, unlike Eve(be it done unto me according to thy word Lk 1:38).
· This one women would give birth to one man Jesus Christ(Lk 2:7) who would die for all on a Tree(Act 5:30) and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion Jn 6:54-58).
The early Church on Mary as New Eve
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin."
[St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180)]
Amen! yes! St. Paul also talks about this as well!In a certain sense, all Christians are also co-redeemers with Christ when we say "yes" to His offer of salvation.
So, the Catholic afterlife has an extra dimension compared to Protestant/similar denominations, namely Purgatory. Based on my reading of Dante's Purgatorio, I came up with an idea for how Mary might be described as a "Co-Redemptrix" in such a way as does not imply equality with Christ or even a role in Christ's direct work of redemption as such. Basically, my idea is that there is an analogy between being saved from Hell, and being liberated from Purgatory, such that Mary plays a special role in accelerating the purification of souls in Purgatory, wherefore she is a "Co-Redemptrix." Christ is the only one Who saves souls from the fire of Hell, and He also is the only one Who makes it possible for souls to enter into Purgatory in the first place, but once souls are there, Mary is able to do something personal in herself, that "redeems" those souls from the lesser fire in question.
I realize the title in question is not dogmatic for the RCC so it might be something of a moot point or whatever, but I have a very high Mariology so I am interested in "promoting the cause," so to speak.
Will read your post with interest...JL: As you correctly post it is not a doctrine, and Mary is certainly not anywhere equal to Christ but she is highly blessed by Him. The following is how I understand it. Theologians have differing views.
What you say can be true.[Ex25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.] k
Blessings come to those faithful who take the Ark into their home. As Christ said from the cross woman behold thy son and to the beloved disciple behold thy mother. And the disciple took her into his home. Mary is spiritual mother to all the Lord’s beloved disciples.
I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God.In giving birth to Christ all grace comes thorough her, because Christ the source of all grace came through her. Mary could have said no. Yet she said behold the handmaid of the Lord let it be done to me according to thy word. Mary co-operated (co-redeemed) freely, willingly and fully without self interest submitting totally to God.
The above really shows a misunderstanding of the work of the Savior which God had planned from before the beginning of time..knowing that man would fail and need salvation.All the people of God at different levels are co-redeemers, mediators, and advocates, by witnessing, correcting, praying or offering our sufferings in union with Christ for those who are in need of grace. When we suffer, witness, pray or live for Christ we co-redeem, mediate and advocate (co=with Christ redeem).
We ARE a Royal priesthood.God chose Mary to touch all humanity thru her mediation between God and man, thereby co-redeeming in union with Christ. Our co-redeeming touches maybe one or two or even thousands, depending on the person and the grace God gives to our co-redeeming acts. If we do nothing, with our gift, we may lose our own soul as the man who didn’t even get interest on the talent given him by the Lord, Mt 25:24-30. This does not take away from Christ the one redeemer, mediator and advocate. Christ shares his mediatorship and all he has and is with his people. He shares his priesthood, kingship and being prophet with all his people. Christ makes us a royal priesthood, kings and prophets sending us to be witnesses thereby co=with Christ, redeemers.
Paul did not believe Christ needed any help,,,,all of the above are good verses but they don't state what you're saying.[Col1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:] k
Just as Paul we too uniting with Christ our sufferings, joys, prayers and works become co-redeemers with Christ. Christ's afflictions lack nothing, but he wants us to share in his work, which is our priestly duty. Why waste a suffering offer it up to God for the salvation of souls.
[Rm15:16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.] YLT Biblegateway,
[1Cor3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building,] k
[3Jn1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.] k
[Jms5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.] k
[Jude1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.] k
[1Tm4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.] k
Mary is unique as the OT ark
Agreedof the covenant was unique and honored because of the special presents of God. Mary alone among all the billions of human beings was chosen by God to conceive in her womb God made flesh. Mother of God, is only one of the great things God has done to her and the reason All generations will call her blessed.
Agreed.[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] k
Catholic’s and Orthodox thru all generations have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to Mary.
KJV Biblegateway
[/QUOTE]GodsGrace101: What you say can be true. It can also be true that Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of and entrusted her to John. I just doubt that John needed a spiritual mother. He did not live with her indefinitely...he preached the gospel just like the other Apostles did.
JL: I agree Jesus wanted Mary to be taken care of as she had no children to care for her. Mary is also called by the fathers the new Eve who is mother of all the living.
GodsGrace101: I used to teach catechism and I used to speak about the great YES of Mary and how WE also are to follow her lead and say yes to God. However, we here are adults, so let's look at this in a more mature way.
Mary could have said no..... And here we come face to face with God's sovereignty and our free will. Mary freely said Yes....I agree. But was she not chosen by God? If she was chosen by God ,,, how could her Yes be of her own free will?
JL: If she couldn’t say no, then she had no free will and we are all robots. God is sovereign=supreme power but he is not a tyrant. A tyrant would force people as they have no concern but for themselves. God, who could force, is love and wants our free will love offering. He doesn’t want robots but love from his creatures. A free will act to God is an expression of faith and love.
GodsGrace101: Notice what Gabriel says to her in Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus"
Does this sound like a request or like a command? Gabriel is telling her what is going to happen... BUT, right after that, she gives her free will YES to him. This happens to be one of the most difficult things to understand about God's will always being done...and our free will to choose.
JL: It sounds like an all knowing God knows, the answer will be a free will yes. He knew Mary’s answer when he told Satan in Gn3:15.
[Gn3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.]k
If human beings have no free will would it be just to create billions of people, to be lost, who are forced by God’s sovereignty to sin and never able to repent? How can a sinner be held responsible for his sins if he has no free will?
I can’t quite understand where certain Protestants come up with sovereignty means can’t be resisted. God wills all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved. Does that mean God is not sovereign? No, it simply means he gives us free will choices.
[1Tm2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.]k
Why pray for others, if there is no free will, what’s the point? Why not eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, having no free will to choose life or death.
Duet30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
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