Is this freedom of speech or inciting violence?

[smaneck]

Who are the hate mongers? Are those telling the truth about Islam and sharia law? Those standing up for women's right and equality of every person? Spencer and Geller?

How about those trying to deny freedom of speech and religion to others which is precisely what Spencer and Geller are attempting to do? It was Spencer and Geller who led the effort to stop construction of the proposed Islamic Center in New York, which indicates they have no regard for the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of religion. Even the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organization which fights antisemitism condemns their actions. According to the ADL the two of them:

"promote a conspiratorial anti-Muslim agenda under the pretext of fighting radical Islam. This belief system parallels the creation of an ideological — and far more deadly — form of anti-Semitism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries."

On her blog she posted a letter claiming Obama's mother had been impregnated by Malcolm X and that Obama was their love child. She also posted a video suggesting that some Muslims have sex with goats, and a doctored photo showing President Obama urinating on an American flag. None of this indicates she has any regard for the truth. As for standing up for women's rights, anyone who supports Slobodan Milošević genocidal policies which included the rape of Muslim women is not out to defend women's rights.

As for Robert Spencer, he was part of David Horowitz's McCarthy-type campaign against academicians who teach Middle East history, hardly a champion of free speech. Horowitz, btw, pays Spencer about 132K a year. So he is really cashing in on his anti-Islam campaign.

 

[simplegifts]

How about those trying to deny freedom of speech and religion to others which is precisely what Spencer and Geller are attempting to do? It was Spencer and Geller who led the effort to stop construction of the proposed Islamic Center in New York, which indicates they have no regard for the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of religion. ...

Please reference where Spencer has supported book burnings of any kind, called for the death of a group of people.

Are you serious - the guys wanting that mosque are criminal landlords. It is the prectice of Muslims in the past to build mosgues on lands that they conquered which was exactly the case in that New York mosque.

 

[simplegifts]

Considering they were planning to speak at an EDL gathering, yes. The EDL are a bunch of racist thugs, who have used violence in the past, and shown no signs of changing that anytime soon.

WHAT RACE IS ISLAM?

 

[Mikeb85]

WHAT RACE IS ISLAM?

Most Muslims in the UK are Pakistani/Punjabi. Not that it matters, because to ignorant racists, race does equal religion. In the UK, Muslim = brown and Christian = white.

I could have used the word prejudiced and it would describe the same thing.

Fact is, your American notion of free-speech doesn't override the laws of other countries, which prevent hate speech and inciting violence, and who prevented 2 foreigners (Americans) from speaking at a gathering of a hate group, who are known for violence.

 

[smaneck]

Please reference where Spencer has supported book burnings of any kind, called for the death of a group of people.

Did I say anything about book burning? Much as I abhor book burning which is strictly prohibited in my religion, it is a legal expression of the First Amendment. However, Spencer supports Geert Wilders and cites him as a defender of Western Civilization. Geert Wilders has been trying to get the Qur'an banned in the Netherlands. That is tantamount to denying people freedom of religion and speech. Furthermore Spencer has insisted that government officials like Congressman Keith Ellison should not be able to take their oath of office on the Qur'an, another attempt to deny people of their freedom of religion.

As for not calling for a the death of a group of people, just as I consider Holocaust Deniers as capable of genocide, I share the same opinion of those who deny the genocide against Muslims in Bosnia (as Spencer did.) However, Spencer goes further. He starts he book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam with the words “Deus Vult!” (God wills it!), which was “the rallying cry of the First Crusade”; and the very last sentence of his book explicitly calls for a crusade against Islam. So yes, I would say he is calling for the death of a group of people.

Are you serious - the guys wanting that mosque are criminal landlords.

Evidence? For their being criminals, not landlords please. And while we are at it, let's do a criminal background check of anyone contributing money to build churches.

It is the prectice of Muslims in the past to build mosgues on lands that they conquered

As Christians did with churches. Do you really expect them not to?

which was exactly the case in that New York mosque.

What paranoid nonsense. Last I heard New York has not been conquered. However, there is a large population of that live in that particular neighborhood which is why they need to a new mosque. The old one, which is even closer to Ground Zero is overcrowded.

But this is really beside the point. Robert Spencer has clearly stated the construction of new mosques in non-Muslim countries should be stopped regardless of location.

Definitely no defender of free speech or religion.

 

[smaneck]

WHAT RACE IS ISLAM?

Are you really that naive?

EDL marches are routinely promoted on Stormfront and other white supremacist and Neo-Nazi websites.

 

[simplegifts]

Most Muslims in the UK are Pakistani/Punjabi. Not that it matters, because to ignorant racists, race does equal religion. In the UK, Muslim = brown and Christian = white.

I could have used the word prejudiced and it would describe the same thing.

Fact is, your American notion of free-speech doesn't override the laws of other countries, which prevent hate speech and inciting violence, and who prevented 2 foreigners (Americans) from speaking at a gathering of a hate group, who are known for violence.

Oh ok!
Bar those that:

• want equality for all but allow those that condone wife beating into your country.
• want to protect girls from underage marriages but allow those that cheer Mohammads consumation of marriage with Aiasha at age 9.
• are trying to stop honor killings yet greet those that do honor killings with a pat on the back.
• want to stop the hangings and persecution of homosexuals and greet those that condone such behavior with a smile of politically correct horse manure.
• want to protect a certain standard of equality for all and bend over backwards for those whose idealogy it is to reign supreme over you and destroy your constitutions and laws.

009.029Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

[simplegifts]

Are you really that naive?

EDL marches are routinely promoted on Stormfront and other white supremacist and Neo-Nazi websites.

Doesn't mean anything. Just because a hate group likes what you are doing for obviously different reasons it doesn't equal that you condone their poor behavior/beliefs.

 

[simplegifts]

Did I say anything about book burning? Much as I abhor book burning which is strictly prohibited in my religion, it is a legal expression of the First Amendment. However, Spencer supports Geert Wilders and cites him as a defender of Western Civilization. Geert Wilders has been trying to get the Qur'an banned in the Netherlands. That is tantamount to denying people freedom of religion and speech. Furthermore Spencer has insisted that government officials like Congressman Keith Ellison should not be able to take their oath of office on the Qur'an, another attempt to deny people of their freedom of religion.

As for not calling for a the death of a group of people, just as I consider Holocaust Deniers as capable of genocide, I share the same opinion of those who deny the genocide against Muslims in Bosnia (as Spencer did.) However, Spencer goes further. He starts he book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam with the words “Deus Vult!” (God wills it!), which was “the rallying cry of the First Crusade”; and the very last sentence of his book explicitly calls for a crusade against Islam. So yes, I would say he is calling for the death of a group of people.



Evidence? For their being criminals, not landlords please. And while we are at it, let's do a criminal background check of anyone contributing money to build churches.



As Christians did with churches. Do you really expect them not to?



What paranoid nonsense. Last I heard New York has not been conquered. However, there is a large population of that live in that particular neighborhood which is why they need to a new mosque. The old one, which is even closer to Ground Zero is overcrowded.

But this is really beside the point. Robert Spencer has clearly stated the construction of new mosques in non-Muslim countries should be stopped regardless of location.

Definitely no defender of free speech or religion.

Here's one:
The men behind the mosque - NYPOST.com

Did you get the whole quote? - Until a religion of anything other then Islam can build a House of Worship in Mecca.

http://www.statepress.com/2010/08/22/point-the-mosque-of-sanity/

018.021Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."

 

[smaneck]

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Good job of selective quoting! One of the verses which begins this sura reads:

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you"

But that wouldn't fit your agenda of hate, would it?

 

[smaneck]

Did you get the whole quote? - Until a religion of anything other then Islam can build a House of Worship in Mecca.

I realize he was proposing a tit for tat, but last I heard the US Constitution does not depend on what the Saudis decide to do. In any case, non-Muslims don't live in Mecca anymore than non-Christians live in Vatican City.

018.021Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."

You do realize that the Qur'an in that verse is quoting those who were said to have found the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus? These were Christians who lived long before Islam. This is a Meccan Surah and would have had nothing to do with subsequent mosque building in Islam.

 

[simplegifts]

Good job of selective quoting! One of the verses which begins this sura reads:

"Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you"

But that wouldn't fit your agenda of hate, would it?

You want context? LOL!!! The fighting is only postponed!!:
009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

...
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I have to laugh when Muslims say whoever slays a soul it is as though he slew all men- Check ou the context and what in the world is mischief?:

005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

 

[simplegifts]

I realize he was proposing a tit for tat, but last I heard the US Constitution does not depend on what the Saudis decide to do. In any case, non-Muslims don't live in Mecca anymore than non-Christians live in Vatican City.



You do realize that the Qur'an in that verse is quoting those who were said to have found the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus? These were Christians who lived long before Islam. This is a Meccan Surah and would have had nothing to do with subsequent mosque building in Islam.

Or church building in now Muslims Brotherhood controlled Eygpt, or Iran, etc.

You mean the legend? Yes, Mohammad plagerized from many different sources twisting and turning every story to suit his needs.

 

[smaneck]

You want context? LOL!!! The fighting is only postponed!!:

Sorry, it is not saying go ahead and kill them afterwards. The following verse is talking about something completely different, not fighting during the sacred months. In any case, all verses regarding jihad must be read in the context of the following:

"Fight in the Cause of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Surely God loves not the aggressors” (2:190)

 

[smaneck]

Or church building in now Muslims Brotherhood controlled Eygpt, or Iran, etc.

Egypt has been slow about approving church building permits, but it does issue them. Iran doesn't really have a problem with church buildings, it is suspicious of home churches, however.

You mean the legend? Yes, Mohammad plagerized from many different sources twisting and turning every story to suit his needs.

Good job side-stepping the fact you tried to take a verse regarding the building of a church to honor the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus and twisted it to use as evidence that the Park 51 mosque was being built in celebration of 9-11

 

[Zoness]

WoodrowLi,

I don't understand the political agenda here; is inciting distrust amongst Muslims [which admittedly some sects bother me] supposed to drive us back in to the arms of Christianity?

Be honest, I'm curious.

 

[lupusFati]

I'm fairly uncomfortable with Islam myself, and considering certain events I'm not certain that view will change. Not all Muslims are out to get me, of course, but considering they're allowed to lie to my face in their religion I'm not entirely trusting either.

 

[Zoness]

Yeah, I'm skeptical myself. For the same reason I am skeptical of lots of religions. I'm trying to uncover intents here.

 

[smaneck]

I'm fairly uncomfortable with Islam myself, and considering certain events I'm not certain that view will change. Not all Muslims are out to get me, of course, but considering they're allowed to lie to my face in their religion I'm not entirely trusting either.

I presume you are referring to the practice of Taqiyyih or dissimulation. This is primarily a Shi'ite practice, to avoid being persecuted by the Sunni majority, although Sufis sometimes practiced it as well.

Most Sunni Muslims don't believe in taqiyyih.

 

[Masihi]

islam if banned from a nation, would destroy its foundation since its a sociopolitical system as much as a religious one, and without its sociopolitical aspect, its participants could not thrive. Muslims could practice their 5 pillars in their own homes.

Japan has such a ban and muslim worker immigrants are not allowed in. I also noticed the absence of riots, religiously motivated killings, bombings, and such.