Is this freedom of speech or inciting violence?

[Lovely Jar]

Gee, sounds just like historical Christianity.

Or Bahai.

 

[smaneck]

It's not an accusation when it's a fact.

So it is true that Abraham was guilty of incest? So Isaac is the product of an incestuous relationship? Why doesn't the Bible condemn the marriage of Abraham and Sarah?

As for Aisha, while there are disputes regarding her age, there is no dispute that her marriage was not consummated for more than two years and that Aisha had reached puberty by this time. No pedophile waits two years to have sex with a child.

 

[smaneck]

Or Bahai.

Nope sorry. There was one incident in the 19th century when over-zealous Baha'is killed four people in defense of their religion. Of them Baha'u'llah wrote:

"My imprisonment doeth Me no harm, neither the tribulations
I suffer, nor the things that have befallen Me at the hands of My oppressors.
That which harmeth Me is the conduct of those who, though they bear My name, yet commit that which maketh My heart and My pen to lament."

Since then, no Baha'i has dared to resort to violence in the name of religion.

 

[Zoness]

Or Bahai.

Uh, Christianity has been committing violent acts more than 5 times longer than the Baha'i religion has even existed...

 

[Lovely Jar]

So it is true that Abraham was guilty of incest? So Isaac is the product of an incestuous relationship? Why doesn't the Bible condemn the marriage of Abraham and Sarah?

Probably for the same reason Moses in Exodus was given 10 commandments, one of which commanded the Hebrews that they shall not murder. And yet they did and repeatedly at God's behest. Slaughtering other tribes for land, property, and fertile women and prepubescent girls as booty.

Noah's family was the only surviving family on earth after the deluge.
Figure that one out.

As for Aisha, while there are disputes regarding her age, there is no dispute that her marriage was not consummated for more than two years and that Aisha had reached puberty by this time. No pedophile waits two years to have sex with a child.

OK, let's look at the math. Aisha was purportedly 6 by some accounts when she married Muhammad.
Let's take what you say as excusing his marrying a 6 year old when you claim he waited 2 years to have sex with her. That would make her 8 years of age. Still a child, still a pedophile.
Let's say Aisha was at most 10 years old when she married Muhammad. That would make her 12 when she was supposedly deflowered. That would make Muhammad an ephedophile having sex, and a pedophile when he married.


Puberty and consummation of marriage

In effect, Islam does not prescribe any age limit for consummation of marriage

 

[smaneck]

Let's say Aisha was at most 10 years old when she married Muhammad. That would make her 12 when she was supposedly deflowered. That would make Muhammad an ephedophile having sex, and a pedophile when he married.

Excuse me, but 12 was the normal marriage age for a girl through most of the Middle Ages! It is even a part of Church Canon Law, or at least was up until twentieth century.

Your thinking on this issue is completely anachronistic.

However, there is reason to believe that Aisha was even older than that. But that is a subject for another thread.

 

[lupusFati]

Actually, I think the incest law came after Abraham and Sarah. And they were only half-related anyway. Not that it makes things much better, but it wasn't condemned at that time either, far as I know.

But who cares really. Research isn't important anymore.

 

[BruceDLimber]

or Bahai [sic].

Nope, sorry. There was one incident in the 19th century when over-zealous Baha'is killed four people in defense of their religion. Of them Baha'u'llah wrote:

"My imprisonment doeth Me no harm, neither the tribulations
I suffer, nor the things that have befallen Me at the hands of My oppressors.

"That which harmeth Me is the conduct of those who, though they bear My name, yet commit that which maketh My heart and My pen to lament."

Since then, no Baha'i has dared to resort to violence in the name of religion.

Well, at least you managed to shut him up about this.


That's some sort of progress, I suppose! . . .


Peace,


Bruce

 

[LoAmmi]

Probably for the same reason Moses in Exodus was given 10 commandments, one of which commanded the Hebrews that they shall not murder. And yet they did and repeatedly at God's behest. Slaughtering other tribes for land, property, and fertile women and prepubescent girls as booty.

That's simple actually. Murder is unlawful killing and if you take the stories literally, the ultimate authority on law was the one ordering this. Not that I think it makes it better, but it wouldn't be a violation of the Ten Commandments BECAUSE the one who authored the Ten Commandments would know the ins and outs of it.

 

[smaneck]

Actually, I think the incest law came after Abraham and Sarah. And they were only half-related anyway. Not that it makes things much better, but it wasn't condemned at that time either, far as I know.

But who cares really. Research isn't important anymore.

Sure, but the same thing is true of the marriage age. It has become higher over time. During Muhammad's time child marriages were common. Such marriages were not consummated until puberty. And given the two year space between marriage and consummation in Muhammad's case it is clear that is what happened. Anachronistic judgments about what constitutes pedophilia or incest are really silly.

What is unfortunate about those hadiths which assign Aisha a particularly young marriage age is that too many Muslims today think it is okay to do this today.

 

[simplegifts]

Those speaking out for freedom of speech barred from UK:
Pamela Geller And Robert Spencer Banned From The UK By Home Office, Due To Speak At EDL Woolwich Rally


While Muhammad al-Arefe, who has advocated Jew-hatred, wife-beating, and jihad violence, entered the UK recently with no difficulty.

 

[smaneck]

Those speaking out for freedom of speech barred from UK:
Pamela Geller And Robert Spencer Banned From The UK By Home Office, Due To Speak At EDL Woolwich Rally


While Muhammad al-Arefe, who has advocated Jew-hatred, wife-beating, and jihad violence, entered the UK recently with no difficulty.

And Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam) isn't allowed in the US. What's your point? Governments are entitled to refuse admission to whoever they wish. Free speech doesn't entitle you to a visa.

 

[simplegifts]

And Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam) isn't allowed in the US. What's your point? Governments are entitled to refuse admission to whoever they wish. Free speech doesn't entitle you to a visa.

Poor example:

• He sent funds to Al Qaeda
• He supports the "Blind Sheik" Omar Abdel-Rahman, currently serving a life sentence for plotting terror attacks in the US.
• He publically endorsed the death sentence - Ayatollah Khomeini - "Salman Rushdie, indeed any writer who abuses the prophet or indeed any prophet under Islamic law, the sentence for that is actually death,"

When did Spencer or Geller have ties or support terrorits?

 

[smaneck]

Poor example:

• He sent funds to Al Qaeda

• 
  
  False. In regards to 9-11 Yusuf Islam made the following statement:
  
  "I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right-thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action. The Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims of this sorrowful moment."
  
  
  

  [*]He supports the "Blind Sheik" Omar Abdel-Rahman, currently serving a life sentence for plotting terror attacks in the US.

  
  He may have at one time. I don't know if he still does.
  
  

  [*]He publically endorsed the death sentence - Ayatollah Khomeini - "Salman Rushdie, indeed any writer who abuses the prophet or indeed any prophet under Islamic law, the sentence for that is actually death,"

When did Spencer or Geller have ties or support terrorits?

That's a distortion of what Yusuf Islam actually said. The statement you quote is merely a recitation of Yusuf Islam's understanding of the applicable Islamic law. But Yusuf Islam goes on to say that such an sentence can only be pronounced in an Islamic state and carried out by the state itself, in other words if Salman Rushdie lived in an Islamic state he could be subject to the death penalty. Since he doesn't, he can't.

 

[Mikeb85]

In Canada hate speech is a federal crime which has been successfully prosecuted many times.

Freedom of speech does not and should not allow someone to incite violence, so these hatemongers will be denied entry into countries like the UK, Canada, etc...

 

[smaneck]

In Canada hate speech is a federal crime which has been successfully prosecuted many times.

Yes, that is the case in most of Europe and Down Under as well. But such things are not illegal in our own country for the same reason we can't get sane gun control in this country. It is hard to get around the Bill of Rights.

Freedom of speech does not and should not allow someone to incite violence, so these hatemongers will be denied entry into countries like the UK, Canada, etc...

Anyone can be denied entrance, but once here the Bill of Rights applied.

 

[simplegifts]

False. In regards to 9-11 Yusuf Islam made the following statement:

"I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right-thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action. The Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims of this sorrowful moment."




He may have at one time. I don't know if he still does.



That's a distortion of what Yusuf Islam actually said. The statement you quote is merely a recitation of Yusuf Islam's understanding of the applicable Islamic law. But Yusuf Islam goes on to say that such an sentence can only be pronounced in an Islamic state and carried out by the state itself, in other words if Salman Rushdie lived in an Islamic state he could be subject to the death penalty. Since he doesn't, he can't.

Have you read any sharia law? Supporters of sharia might actually be the clue to us that helps us identify the violent Muslims.

 

[simplegifts]

In Canada hate speech is a federal crime which has been successfully prosecuted many times.

Freedom of speech does not and should not allow someone to incite violence, so these hatemongers will be denied entry into countries like the UK, Canada, etc...

Who are the hate mongers? Are those telling the truth about Islam and sharia law? Those standing up for women's right and equality of every person? Spencer and Geller?

 

[Mikeb85]

Who are the hate mongers? Are those telling the truth about Islam and sharia law? Those standing up for women's right and equality of every person? Spencer and Geller?

Considering they were planning to speak at an EDL gathering, yes. The EDL are a bunch of racist thugs, who have used violence in the past, and shown no signs of changing that anytime soon.

 

[smaneck]

Have you read any sharia law? Supporters of sharia might actually be the clue to us that helps us identify the violent Muslims.

I have a PhD in Middle East history, so yes I am familiar with the Shariah. However, there is no single Shariah. In Sunni Islam there are four schools of Islamic law and in Shi'ite Islam basically every Ayatollah gets to interpret the shariah for themselves. But no Muslim, extremist or not, is going to say they don't support the shariah. Even in Sunni Islam people are more and more inclined to insist that the gate of new interpretations is not closed.