LDS Is this false prophecy or can it be explained?

[Yarddog]

I was entertaining the idea that God may have spoken to the LDS leaders at different times. But then I found this. The LDS prophet Joseph Smith said he heard a voice that proclaimed the coming of Son of Man:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

So my question is this: Is this typical for a false prophecy, or can it be explained somehow?

I look forward to a descent and honest debate. Cheers

Well, he didn't live to 85 so who knows.

 

[Ironhold]

Thanks. I was not so much indicating Joseph Smith in the prophecy. But rather whether God would even give a prophecy regarding the coming of the son of man in the first place. The odd thing is that in Matthew 24:3 Jesus instructs the disciples on his second coming down thru 24. Suggesting he might give prophecy regarding his second coming, as he clearly did for John in Revelation, but certainly not the hour or day: Matthew 24:36

I'm a little confused really. Since by Joseph Smiths prediction Jesus should have appeared at the time Joseph Smith would have turned 85 regardless of whether Joseph Smith died or not.

If I'm to believe the prophecy then Jesus was set to visit the earth when Joseph was age 85. Why then didn't Jesus visit the earth at that time? Was it because of JS's Death in your opinion? So Joseph Smiths death stopped the second coming of Christ in your opinion? I'm suggesting that God is not a liar.

Even if this was a prophecy of the Second Coming,

1. We only have the year, not a time frame within.

2. It was dependent upon Joseph being allowed to live out his natural days, which the wickedness of men did not allow for.

 

[Ironhold]

Joseph Smith also said that there are people living on the sun and moon.

Even *if* he said it (almost all alleged accounts go back to one single account recorded decades after the fact), we have no context behind why he said it.

...Which is critical, as at the time he allegedly said it a number of newspapers across the US had fallen for a hoax in which someone impersonating a famed astronomer said that they'd discovered life on the moon.

If Joseph said it, then it could mean nothing more than "he read one of those newspapers".

 

[Ironhold]

The one was where Joseph Smith died at which point Jesus would not return to earth when JS was 85. Thus changing the date of the second coming of the Son of Man. But then why would this change? The LDS church went on without JS. Was JS crucial to this second coming date?

Hypothetical situation.

You're a kid.

Your mom tells you that the ice cream in the freezer is for the church social this Sunday.

Leave it alone, and not only can you have whatever's left over at the social, she'll take you to Baskin-Robbins (or another chain ice cream parlor) the following Saturday.

What do you expect to happen if you eat that ice cream before Sunday?

You see, as I explained earlier, Joseph's death was due to human sin. He was brought up on false charges, knowingly placed in the custody of men who were deliberately cruel, abandoned to his fate when Governor Ford went back on a promise, and brutally murdered along with his brother.

What sort of message do you think that degree of wickedness sent to Heavenly Father?

 

[Ironhold]

Let me make a point.
There is a story that JS as a youth was involved in hunting for gold.

Don't forget that for that day, age, and location, people hunted for hidden treasure like folks today buy lottery tickets.

 

[devin553344]

Well, he didn't live to 85 so who knows.

I agree.

But there is something to be taken from the Prophecy by LDS folk if looking at it in all truth and it will give me a better understanding of what LDS people believe:

If I am to take the prophecy as given from a God of truth, then there were two timelines described. One where Joseph Smith died thus circumventing the second coming at age 85 and the other where the second coming would have taken place at 85.

I was interested in the distinction between the revealed timelines and what LDS would believe. Because in the first Joseph Smith's death would have stopped the second coming. And in the second the second coming would have occurred a long time ago.

So what do the LDS people believe? Or was God simply never going to visit Joseph Smith at 85 and thus not telling the truth?

 

[devin553344]

Hypothetical situation.

You're a kid.

Your mom tells you that the ice cream in the freezer is for the church social this Sunday.

Leave it alone, and not only can you have whatever's left over at the social, she'll take you to Baskin-Robbins (or another chain ice cream parlor) the following Saturday.

What do you expect to happen if you eat that ice cream before Sunday?

You see, as I explained earlier, Joseph's death was due to human sin. He was brought up on false charges, knowingly placed in the custody of men who were deliberately cruel, abandoned to his fate when Governor Ford went back on a promise, and brutally murdered along with his brother.

What sort of message do you think that degree of wickedness sent to Heavenly Father?

OK good that is answering my question. Thanks. So God was sending a different message and decided not to have the second coming because of Joseph Smiths death?

 

[Ironhold]

OK good that is answering my question. Thanks. So God was sending a different message and decided not to have the second coming because of Joseph Smiths death?

I see it as "If this was indeed a prophecy about the Second Coming, then it was a test, and humanity failed it badly."

 

[devin553344]

I see it as "If this was indeed a prophecy about the Second Coming, then it was a test, and humanity failed it badly."

Well the prophecy is clearly depicting different outcomes promised by God, one of which was what Christians would call the second coming. I don't think I could take anything different from that prophecy.

So in order to accept that prophecy as true, I must believe that the actions of a few bad apples changed the date of the second coming of God. So were those evil men that important? Would God give them that power over the date of the second coming, would he let a small amount of evil men steer his return?

These are all things I will ponder now.

 

[andrea0601]

No, humanity showed it wasn't ready.

Ok, I have just a quick statement to make. Jesus was promised to humanity through the lineage of David, the devil tried to fight it and lost horribly. If God says something is gonna come to pass it will, regardless of humanity, the devil etc. He would of lived to that age. A false prophet was proven a liar, as is your arguments. God controls every situation, he could of had something happen to stop it but he didn't. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. - Matthew 7:15

 

[Peter1000]

I agree.

But there is something to be taken from the Prophecy by LDS folk if looking at it in all truth and it will give me a better understanding of what LDS people believe:

If I am to take the prophecy as given from a God of truth, then there were two timelines described. One where Joseph Smith died thus circumventing the second coming at age 85 and the other where the second coming would have taken place at 85.

I was interested in the distinction between the revealed timelines and what LDS would believe. Because in the first Joseph Smith's death would have stopped the second coming. And in the second the second coming would have occurred a long time ago.

So what do the LDS people believe? Or was God simply never going to visit Joseph Smith at 85 and thus not telling the truth?

There is not 2 timelines.

JS did not delay, nor did he cause the 2nd coming of Christ to come eartly. It is absurd to think that JS would have any bearing on when Jesus came the 2nd time.

JS asked the Lord when the 2nd coming was to happen. The Lord did not want to tell him so he gave him some confusing information and said do not bother me again about this subject.

No prophecy was made by JS. He even says himself that he was confused about what the Lord told him. So stop with the prophecy motif.

 

[devin553344]

There is not 2 timelines.

JS did not delay, nor did he cause the 2nd coming of Christ to come eartly. It is absurd to think that JS would have any bearing on when Jesus came the 2nd time.

JS asked the Lord when the 2nd coming was to happen. The Lord did not want to tell him so he gave him some confusing information and said do not bother me again about this subject.

No prophecy was made by JS. He even says himself that he was confused about what the Lord told him. So stop with the prophecy motif.

Thanks for your input. I'm pretty sure that our very life hangs on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God: Matthew 4:4. God is a God of truth: John 3:33. He is not the author of confusion: 1 Corinthians 14:33.

 

[DamianWarS]

I was entertaining the idea that God may have spoken to the LDS leaders at different times. But then I found this. The LDS prophet Joseph Smith said he heard a voice that proclaimed the coming of Son of Man:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

So my question is this: Is this typical for a false prophecy, or can it be explained somehow?

I look forward to a descent and honest debate. Cheers

God doesn't speak in Elizabethian English, especially in the 19th century.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

JSJr. taught that all spirit is matter, boogeyboy.

I don't believe in Mormonism or any of the sects of the Restoration.

But I can tell you and Justin Hoffman that you both need to do a lot of study before you run into a well trained Mormon who will buzzsaw your opinions into shreds.

 

[Loyce KG]

So you're saying that God doesn't need to talk to humanity anymore?

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them.
If their teaching is contrary to scripture or what they have heard is extra revelation, they are false teachers/prophets.

Gal 1:18;But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Loyce KG]

I'm talking about the people who chose to use force to silence him rather than use their wits, as well as those people who were in a position to stop the violence but did nothing.

For example, Joseph wasn't even supposed to be in prison on the day they were murdered. Governor Ford had scheduled an inspection tour of Nauvoo for that day, and had promised Joseph that he'd be able to come with. Instead, Ford didn't fulfill his promise, and Joseph was there when the mob came.

Likewise, the guards in charge of the prison that day were part of a militia known to be hostile towards the early church members. Not only did they openly antagonize Joseph and the others while they were in prison (one gruesome tale has them serving the prisoners mystery meat, and then claiming the meat was from the body of a murdered Mormon), when the mobs came witnesses hold that they did nothing more than fire their guns into the air and either flee or join the mob.

The situation wasn't as neat and tidy as far too many works want to make it out as. Joseph and Hyrum were subject to emotional and mental torture in an attempt to break them, abandoned by the state government after being promised hope, and murdered by an angry mob who didn't care about collateral damage or wasted human lives.

Regardless of how one feels about Joseph himself, one would think that God would not look too kindly on what transpired at Liberty Jail. Hence why the tragic or even bizarre fates of some individuals involved were sometimes taken by individuals to be signs of God passing an earthly judgement. Governor Ford, for example, died of tuberculosis in 1850, and was so utterly destitute upon his passing that people had to raise money just to pay for his burial.

Heresy

 

[Loyce KG]

How do you know what all Jesus said? Does the bible contain 100% of what Jesus said?

If not, then possibly what JS said lines up with what was not recorded from the mouth of Jesus. Is that a possibility?

The Holy Bible is God’s final revelation about His Son and the Son’s final revelation which He gave to His apostle [Rev.22:16]. Anyone who adds to this final revelation will come under the judgment of God [Rev.22:18,19].The bible is the complete revelation of God's word/account and nothing else

 

[Loyce KG]

Even if this was a prophecy of the Second Coming,

1. We only have the year, not a time frame within.

2. It was dependent upon Joseph being allowed to live out his natural days, which the wickedness of men did not allow for.

So the fulfillment of his prophecy relied on him staying alive?
True prophecy is fulfilled by God Himself and is not contingent on the prophet's life-span.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, humanity showed it wasn't ready.

You need to re-read Matthew 24. See verses 10-14 below, especially the bold, but the whole chapter is applicable. Jesus already tells us there will be wickedness in the world before the Second Coming. Your claim of a requirement of some kind of " readiness test" is not in line with Scripture and is therefore false. Why can't you just admit Joseph made that all up?

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Notice the underlined. Looks like Jesus predicted the false prophecy of Joseph Smith 1800 years before it happened.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Jesus predicted the 1800 years ago of the false doctrines of the fundamentalists, evangelists, and Pentecostals, as well as the Great Apostasy of Western and Eastern Catholicism.