LDS Is this false prophecy or can it be explained?

[devin553344]

I was entertaining the idea that God may have spoken to the LDS leaders at different times. But then I found this. The LDS prophet Joseph Smith said he heard a voice that proclaimed the coming of Son of Man:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

So my question is this: Is this typical for a false prophecy, or can it be explained somehow?

I look forward to a descent and honest debate. Cheers

 

[CherubRam]

I was entertaining the idea that God may have spoken to the LDS leaders at different times. But then I found this. The LDS prophet Joseph Smith said he heard a voice that proclaimed the coming of Son of Man:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

So my question is this: Is this typical for a false prophecy, or can it be explained somehow?

I looked at the possible argument that it simply didn't apply because Joseph Smith was killed at age 38. If that is your argument can you please explain why God would predict something that was not going to happen? Ref: Isaiah 14:24

I look forward to a descent and honest debate. Cheers

It is false.

 

[Danielwright2311]

If was true, everything said from Joseph Smith would line up with what Jesus said, and because it does not, its is a different group.

The same group would just be regular Christians.

I hope you all get the difference here.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

This verse clearly explains the ambiguity of the passes. "16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

I don't accept the LDS Church as the one true church, but not because of an ambiguous passage.

 

[devin553344]

This verse clearly explains the ambiguity of the passes. "16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."

I don't accept the LDS Church as the one true church, but not because of an ambiguous passage.

I think I understand what your saying, although it is somewhat vague as to the point.

 

[Ironhold]

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

Note the phrase "If thou livest".

If this was a prophecy of the Second Coming, then it was dependent upon Joseph living until the age of 85.

Instead, Joseph was brutally murdered by a mob after the guards around the prison he was being held in abandoned their posts.

 

[Southernscotty]

False. Why would God need to speak to anyone in the 1830?, We have His word solidified in the Holy Bible. Now just waiting to meet Him in the air :]

 

[Ironhold]

False. Why would God need to speak to anyone in the 1830?, We have His word solidified in the Holy Bible. Now just waiting to meet Him in the air :]

So you're saying that God doesn't need to talk to humanity anymore?

 

[devin553344]

Note the phrase "If thou livest".

If this was a prophecy of the Second Coming, then it was dependent upon Joseph living until the age of 85.

Instead, Joseph was brutally murdered by a mob after the guards around the prison he was being held in abandoned their posts.

Yes I pondered that way too but the bible seems to teach over and over again that if it is from a prophet of God it will come true, for example Ezekiel 12:25.

 

[Southernscotty]

So you're saying that God doesn't need to talk to humanity anymore?

He doesn't have too, NO He is Sovereign. He can if He so chooses too, but it is not the most common method or why else would we have the gospel?

 

[devin553344]

He doesn't have too, NO He is Sovereign. He can if He so chooses too, but it is not the most common method or why else would we have the gospel?

Matthew 6:26 appears to indicate that God directs the animals to survive. Is that a form of communication between God and animals? If not then how does God perform this miracle?

 

[Ironhold]

Yes I pondered that way too but the bible seems to teach over and over again that if it is from a prophet of God it will come true, for example Ezekiel 12:25.

It's a condemnation against the people who didn't let him live that long, the people who gave in to their rage and used force to silence him.

It's also a condemnation against the people who were in a position to do something but sat back and let it happen.

Edit -

I'll have to go back and find it, but in the 1970s or so there was a book published which claimed to reveal the fates of many of the people who were supposed to be involved in the persecution of Joseph Smith, including his death.

If the book is to be taken seriously, many of them suffered considerable calamity before ignoble deaths.

 

[Southernscotty]

Matthew 6:26 appears to indicate that God directs the animals to survive. Is that a form of communication between God and animals? Or am I understanding that incorrect?

Well there would be a difference between directing and speaking. God can provide and bless without speaking audibly.

 

[devin553344]

It's a condemnation against the people who didn't let him live that long, the people who gave in to their rage and used force to silence him.

It's also a condemnation against the people who were in a position to do something but sat back and let it happen.

Edit -

I'll have to go back and find it, but in the 1970s or so there was a book published which claimed to reveal the fates of many of the people who were supposed to be involved in the persecution of Joseph Smith, including his death.

If the book is to be taken seriously, many of them suffered considerable calamity before ignoble deaths.

So then if I believe Joseph Smith was involved in false prophecy from time to time would I likewise be punished? I'm schizophrenic and greatly value the tolerance of skepticism of voices. Not that I'm saying Joseph Smith was a schizophrenic. I'm not. But hearing a simple voice doesn't prove its God either.

 

[Ironhold]

So then if I believe Joseph Smith was involved in false prophecy from time to time would I likewise be punished?

I'm talking about the people who chose to use force to silence him rather than use their wits, as well as those people who were in a position to stop the violence but did nothing.

For example, Joseph wasn't even supposed to be in prison on the day they were murdered. Governor Ford had scheduled an inspection tour of Nauvoo for that day, and had promised Joseph that he'd be able to come with. Instead, Ford didn't fulfill his promise, and Joseph was there when the mob came.

Likewise, the guards in charge of the prison that day were part of a militia known to be hostile towards the early church members. Not only did they openly antagonize Joseph and the others while they were in prison (one gruesome tale has them serving the prisoners mystery meat, and then claiming the meat was from the body of a murdered Mormon), when the mobs came witnesses hold that they did nothing more than fire their guns into the air and either flee or join the mob.

The situation wasn't as neat and tidy as far too many works want to make it out as. Joseph and Hyrum were subject to emotional and mental torture in an attempt to break them, abandoned by the state government after being promised hope, and murdered by an angry mob who didn't care about collateral damage or wasted human lives.

Regardless of how one feels about Joseph himself, one would think that God would not look too kindly on what transpired at Liberty Jail. Hence why the tragic or even bizarre fates of some individuals involved were sometimes taken by individuals to be signs of God passing an earthly judgement. Governor Ford, for example, died of tuberculosis in 1850, and was so utterly destitute upon his passing that people had to raise money just to pay for his burial.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

It's a condemnation against the people who didn't let him live that long, the people who gave in to their rage and used force to silence him.

It's also a condemnation against the people who were in a position to do something but sat back and let it happen.

Edit -

I'll have to go back and find it, but in the 1970s or so there was a book published which claimed to reveal the fates of many of the people who were supposed to be involved in the persecution of Joseph Smith, including his death.

If the book is to be taken seriously, many of them suffered considerable calamity before ignoble deaths.

All of the supposed horrible deaths did not happen.

The book was mere apologetics, false at that.

 

[Ironhold]

All of the supposed horrible deaths did not happen.

The book was mere apologetics, false at that.

Hence why I said "If the book is to be taken seriously...".

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Hence why I said "If the book is to be taken seriously...".

Research shows it is not serious.

 

[devin553344]

I'm talking about the people who chose to use force to silence him rather than use their wits, as well as those people who were in a position to stop the violence but did nothing.

For example, Joseph wasn't even supposed to be in prison on the day they were murdered. Governor Ford had scheduled an inspection tour of Nauvoo for that day, and had promised Joseph that he'd be able to come with. Instead, Ford didn't fulfill his promise, and Joseph was there when the mob came.

Likewise, the guards in charge of the prison that day were part of a militia known to be hostile towards the early church members. Not only did they openly antagonize Joseph and the others while they were in prison (one gruesome tale has them serving the prisoners mystery meat, and then claiming the meat was from the body of a murdered Mormon), when the mobs came witnesses hold that they did nothing more than fire their guns into the air and either flee or join the mob.

The situation wasn't as neat and tidy as far too many works want to make it out as. Joseph and Hyrum were subject to emotional and mental torture in an attempt to break them, abandoned by the state government after being promised hope, and murdered by an angry mob who didn't care about collateral damage or wasted human lives.

Regardless of how one feels about Joseph himself, one would think that God would not look too kindly on what transpired at Liberty Jail. Hence why the tragic or even bizarre fates of some individuals involved were sometimes taken by individuals to be signs of God passing an earthly judgement. Governor Ford, for example, died of tuberculosis in 1850, and was so utterly destitute upon his passing that people had to raise money just to pay for his burial.

Thanks for clarifying that. I almost thought you were suggesting that people are punished for defiance of LDS leaders. Granted what happened to Joseph Smith was criminal and atrocious and should have been punished by the law.

 

[Peter1000]

Well there would be a difference between directing and speaking. God can provide and bless without speaking audibly.

It is also true that God can provide and bless while speaking audibly, if He chooses to. Right?