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Is This Completely Necessary?

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...
 

Amittai

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...

With discernment we should consider whether and how to intervene by putting any wrong dispensational statements (which is different from people) into their proportionate place. (I usually don't when I could, and do when I shouldn't!) I am of multi-denominational background and am acutely aware of the arguments alluded to, though like you I haven't formally studied them. Bringing souls - beginning with our fellow Christians'. Quality fruits. Profitable talents. Perhaps shallowness around dispensations is a subconscious reaction to having been given a shallow grounding. Grace abounding = ascending He distributed gifts differing, not rationed by the bumptious. Of course there have been dispensations, but they might not be intended by God to be the diversion from or distortion of the rest of His truth?
 
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Josheb

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My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates.
Do you think what a Christian (or non-Christian) believes about the way things end has any influence on the way they live today? Should what is believed about the way things end influence they way we live today?
 
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Josheb

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Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
Do you believe the manner in which a believer handles, teaches, preaches, and lives out scripture can have an impact (positively or negatively) on "bringing souls to the Kingdom of God"?

For example, one of very common conditions experienced in evangelism is the occasion when the non-believer is skeptical and asks questions about the Bible (on any topic) and then appraises the veracity of the gospel and/or Christianity based on the information received in answer to the inquiry about the Bible and the efficacy of the evangelistic effort is thereby (temporally) dependent upopn the real or perceived veracity of the explanation provided. An evangelist answering the inquiry explaining the Bible one way may have a completely different degree of success in comparison to the evangelist who has a different explanation.

Dispensationalists and Amillennialists, for example, OR Dispensationalists and Covenantalists, for example, are going to all agree one the basics: God exists, humans are sinful, and Jesus is to be both Lord and Savior, etc., but they will also give completely different explanations pertaining to systematic inquiries.​

So when you say our focus should be on bringing souls to the kingdom of God do you believe the manner in which a believer handles, teaches, preaches, and lives out scripture can have an impact on the effort to bring souls into the kingdom?


I hope it is understood the answers to my two inquiries (here in this post # 5 and also in post #4) work toward and answer the questions of this op: Is Dispensationalism completely necessary? And Is sectarian debate necessary?
 
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Josheb

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I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I note where the belief in the infallibility and authority of scripture is stated. Great. Commendable.

Are you familiar with what the New Testament says about sectarian debate? Lots of sectarian debate is found in the Bible, especially in the NT, and some of it is viewed favorably, some of it is viewed adversely. For example, the sectarianism of the Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes is an essential context for understand much that occurs in the gospels and how the gospel spread after the ascension. In his letters to Corinth Paul eschewed the early factions that developed with people associating themselves with Jesus, Cephas, or Apollos. Paul expressed gratitude that he hadn't been involved very much in the impetus for those divisions but he stated it was good that divisions existed because divisions are a means of determining who is approved of by God. Still later, in his letter to the Galations Paul expressed blunt disdain for disputes, division, factions, etc. He called them "works of flesh." And to put the icing on the top of your experience, Paul was also alternatively flexible and tolerant and inflexible and intolerant, sometimes being quite blunt and harsh.

{indent]I will add this: we are not Jesus and we are not Paul. Most of us are sheep, not shepherds. Nor are we all apostles, teachers, preachers, prophets, or hold any other position of authority over another so we should not presume Jesus example (such as his behavior chasing out the money changers) or Paul's example is applicable to us, especially since the NT lays out some very specific standards for handling peer-to-peer disagreement.[/indent]

Lastly, I suspect any current disdain for disagreement that is couched in your upbringing is more emotional than rational and as such the personal anecdotal childhood experience should not be used as a measure among adults in an internet discussion forum. I can wholeheartedly agree love is the standard by which all discourse can and should be measured - love as defined by scripture, not love as defined through the lens of a child who may have seen his/her parents argue.

So my question is this: In light of the limits of anecdotal experience AND the veracious authority of scripture, can you now possess or begin developing a tolerance for sectarian debate that may not be hatred or contempt but seemingly so as evidenced by the vigor with which each side asserts and defends their position?

I suspect this is going to be important for this op because I am opposed to much of Dispensationalism and can form a potent scripture-filled, fact-filled case against that model, its hermeneutic, and the effects it has on Christian living but my doing so is going to provike Dispensationalists and some of them are likely to post with rancor.

And you say you're intolerant of that.

This then visits your problem upon you.

And I am bringing this to your attention because if what I have described does happen then this is a wonderful opportunity for you to both grow in toleration and redeem the influence of your childhood experience.

Can you become tolerant of sectarian debate?
 
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owly

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I'm sure there's plenty of people holding to the various Dispensational ideas who are quite the opposite.

Nothing wrong with healthy discussion of opposing ideas.

Don't hold to this position but I do enjoy reading arguments as it helps me understand some common-thread ideas from which further things are built upon.

Welcome.
 
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Broken Fence

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What does of dispensationalism mean? Oh ok looked up, makes sense. What is all the hub-bub about. Do some believe we are not progressing on God's timeline?
 
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Amittai

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What does of dispensationalism mean? Oh ok looked up, makes sense. What is all the hub-bub about. Do some believe we are not progressing on God's timeline?

Some are too nervous to seek rational grounds for understanding it and prefer to deny the questions.

There are plenty of things Jesus & Scripture are ambiguous about, and plenty they are implicit if clear-ish.

A fault in much debate sacred and secular is reifying and nominalism. In true reason language alludes. Meanings occur at intersections.

A test of an interpretation can be, what would be the moral dynamics for our maturity in virtues and in helping our brother's fruitfulness in life, if such-and-such, or if so-and-so. Scriptures are an entire whole and must be read through side-references.

Is Jesus assumed to be offering some an easier ride than others? The judgment of believers, in accordance with the respective quality of latter fruits, will occur before that of non-believers. Those who carry on running, shall gain a share, Rev chs 2-3.

The meanings of the dispensations are in our daily walk with Christ, our continuing repentance on behalf of our nation's past, our Holy Spirit fuelled works of mercy (such as plain asking God for just government through principle over personality), our fresh insights into the meanings of Scriptures, how to have strengthen our neighbour . . .
 
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Dan Perez

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...

Hi and here is what I see in Eph 3:9 And to ILLUMINATE all as to what is the MYSTERY , the one HAVING been kept secret from the AGES in God , the ONE having created THE ALL THINGS , by Jesus Christ !

By the way the Greek word THE ALL THINGS / TA PANTA is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE and is Limited to the BODY OF CHRIST !

This is what we are to do to make all see what is the DISPENSATION of the MYSTERY the ONE KEPT SECRET / APOKRYPTO which is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and PARTICIPLE and also in the GENTIVE CASE that has been in God's POSSESSION from the creation of the world and than this MYSTERY was ONLY revealed to the APOSTLE PAUL !

dan p
 
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WhoIsLikeGod?

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...
If the seven churches in revelation are seven consecutive dispensations, why are there two simultaneous churches present when the two witnesses come?

"And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." They are "the two olive trees" and the two lampstands, and "they stand before the Lord of the earth."

Zechariah 4:11–14 says the two olive trees are "the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth," while Revelation 1:20 says the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Two lampstands would be two churches.

My question is, if two lampstands will be present together sometime in the future at the same time, then why are people trying to say the seven churches are seven consecutive ages?
 
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Guojing

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...

If you are no longer sacrificing animals for sins, you are into dispensationalism without even realizing it.
 
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Broken Fence

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I am going to be brave, or maybe stupid, and say I haven't studied heavily on Dispensationalism. I have found it and those who spout it without love to be objectional. I come from a background of experiancing Scottish sectarian hatred because of my parents being a mixed catholic/protestant marriage. I have grown up being intolerant of such things, even when they came from brothers in Christ.
I am not a catholic, but I am a traditional born again christian. I believe 100% in the unaltered and perfect Word of God.
My argument here is that we do not need to get tied into such dispensational and/or sectarian debates. Our focus should be on bringing souls to the Kingdom of God before the end days realy kicks in.
I am open to thoughtful ideas...
Well I walk around with a Jesus Saves sign sometimes. Sometimes people ask questions.
 
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Josheb

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What does of dispensationalism mean? Oh ok looked up, makes sense. What is all the hub-bub about. Do some believe we are not progressing on God's timeline?
The "hub-bub" has to do with the problems inherent in Dispensationalism a theology, its hermeneutical approach to the Bible, and the manner in which it invariably leads to problems living out the faith.

It's curious the word "progressing" is used because Dispensationalists don't see the dispensations relating to one another. "Progression" in the ordinary sense of the word doesn't exist.

As far as hermeneutics, the belief prophesy should be read literally is self-evidently wrong and Dispensationalists are notoriously inconsistent in practice. The belief in two paths in history, one for Israel and another for the Church was unheard of until the mid-1800s when John Darby popularized Dispensational Premillennialism DP). His theology compromises core doctrines of Christianity (like Theology, soteriology, and ecclesiology) and most DPers aren't aware of this. If Darby is correct then 1800 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice was wrong!

And, lastly, as I asked earlier: the way we think the world ends affects the way we live today. People who truly believe the world is going to end any day now should act like it. For example, there's no need to invest in retirement accounts or mortgages because you're not going to be around to benefit. It's poor stewardship of God-given resources that should be spent in better, more fruitful ways.

Lot's of problems with DPism.
 
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Broken Fence

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The "hub-bub" has to do with the problems inherent in Dispensationalism a theology, its hermeneutical approach to the Bible, and the manner in which it invariably leads to problems living out the faith.

It's curious the word "progressing" is used because Dispensationalists don't see the dispensations relating to one another. "Progression" in the ordinary sense of the word doesn't exist.

As far as hermeneutics, the belief prophesy should be read literally is self-evidently wrong and Dispensationalists are notoriously inconsistent in practice. The belief in two paths in history, one for Israel and another for the Church was unheard of until the mid-1800s when John Darby popularized Dispensational Premillennialism DP). His theology compromises core doctrines of Christianity (like Theology, soteriology, and ecclesiology) and most DPers aren't aware of this. If Darby is correct then 1800 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice was wrong!

And, lastly, as I asked earlier: the way we think the world ends affects the way we live today. People who truly believe the world is going to end any day now should act like it. For example, there's no need to invest in retirement accounts or mortgages because you're not going to be around to benefit. It's poor stewardship of God-given resources that should be spent in better, more fruitful ways.

Lot's of problems with DPism.
Oh I see, I am not very educated in theology or doctrine, I simply just read my Bible and try to submit to God's will.
 
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Josheb

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Oh I see, I am not very educated in theology or doctrine, I simply just read my Bible and try to submit to God's will.
That's good. However, theology and doctrine aren't bad things.

Eschatology is the formal label used for the doctrine(s0 of the end times (not necessarily the end of time). There are five main eschatological positions: Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Post Millennialism, Dispensational Premillennialism, and Idealism. The last two are relatively new inventions. The others can trace their roots all the way back to the ECFs. The term "eschatology" was relatively unheard of until the 1800s when a plethora of restoration movements arose. This happened because they also happened to be apocalyptic. Although there is a small handful of varieties, Dispensational Premillennialism is the view that says the world is going to spiral out of control into depravity and the Church isn't going to be able to do anything to stop it. Jesus is going to remove all the elect from the plant (the rapture) and then literally come down to earth and live here on earth ruling the world from Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years (a millennium) in order to literally physically fulfill the promises made to OT Israel before then letting satan out and heading back home to judge everyone.


Since Augustine the predominant view of the Church, both statistically and normatively, was the Amillennialist pov. If you'd like to learn more about these views then I recommend "The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views" edited by Robert Clouse. It's a nice introduction that's not too big a read. If you're interested in more after having read that then message me and I'll provide a short list of books/authors from each of the various perspectives; or post an op soliciting recommendations from other posters.

You'll forgive me for cutting this short but the op isn't specifically about eschatology and I don't want to hijack it. My question has more to do with the integrity we should have been thought, doctrine, and practice and how some of the content of the op doesn't read very consistent, imo.
 
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Broken Fence

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That's good. However, theology and doctrine aren't bad things.

Eschatology is the formal label used for the doctrine(s0 of the end times (not necessarily the end of time). There are five main eschatological positions: Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Post Millennialism, Dispensational Premillennialism, and Idealism. The last two are relatively new inventions. The others can trace their roots all the way back to the ECFs. The term "eschatology" was relatively unheard of until the 1800s when a plethora of restoration movements arose. This happened because they also happened to be apocalyptic. Although there is a small handful of varieties, Dispensational Premillennialism is the view that says the world is going to spiral out of control into depravity and the Church isn't going to be able to do anything to stop it. Jesus is going to remove all the elect from the plant (the rapture) and then literally come down to earth and live here on earth ruling the world from Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years (a millennium) in order to literally physically fulfill the promises made to OT Israel before then letting satan out and heading back home to judge everyone.


Since Augustine the predominant view of the Church, both statistically and normatively, was the Amillennialist pov. If you'd like to learn more about these views then I recommend "The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views" edited by Robert Clouse. It's a nice introduction that's not too big a read. If you're interested in more after having read that then message me and I'll provide a short list of books/authors from each of the various perspectives; or post an op soliciting recommendations from other posters.

You'll forgive me for cutting this short but the op isn't specifically about eschatology and I don't want to hijack it. My question has more to do with the integrity we should have been thought, doctrine, and practice and how some of the content of the op doesn't read very consistent, imo.
What does ECF mean? OP mean? Original poster, I assume.
 
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Josheb

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What does ECF mean? OP mean? Original poster, I assume.
Early Church Fathers.

Regrets. Shouldn't have assumed that was known. You'll see the acronym used in DBs (discussion boards ;)).
 
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Broken Fence

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Early Church Fathers.

Regrets. Shouldn't have assumed that was known. You'll see the acronym used in DBs (discussion boards ;)).
Oh ok thanks.
 
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Guojing

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Oh I see, I am not very educated in theology or doctrine, I simply just read my Bible and try to submit to God's will.

How do you know God's will is not for you to build the same ark that he told Noah to build in Genesis?

How do you know God's will is not for you to follow the Law of Moses like he told the Jews to?
 
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