Is this appropriate? Reading material

[RileyG]

Probably harmful if you read it for pleasure but neutral if you read it strictly for informational purposes.

I can easily say that I have a Quran and plan to read it (I don't have plans per se) for strictly informational purposes so that I can know the entire book, but I'm certainly not reading it to have a good time.

Thanks for the info!

Peace

 

[RileyG]

President Nelson of the LDS Church died last night at the age of 101. I cannot help but wonder that he might be experiencing? May God have mercy upon him!

 

[Michie]

President Nelson of the LDS Church died last night at the age of 101. I cannot help but wonder that he might be experiencing? May God have mercy upon him!

We serve a merciful God. He will know exactly how to handle Mr. Nelson.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Putting these statements together, I gather that knowledge produces ignorance. Sounds to me like the teacher of such "treasure" is the father of lies himself - the one in whom there is no truth, only deceit. Did I miss something?

Yes.

and you also took the statements out of context

…..and I don’t think “ignorance“ means what you think it means.

First, there is no such thing as perfect or full knowledge in all matters at this moment in human histor. That means we don’t know everything about everything. Having incomplete knowledge is not the same as being ignorant.

Second, you didn’t quote my post in its entirety

As I have said before: {snip}

Knowledge is power.

It's also paradoxical and I'm sure that's what bothers you.

The more you learn, the less you know for sure. (That's why a lot of your social conservative types don't like education - it's to force you to question the society in which you learned in the first place, and we can't have THAT, can we?)

You know what a paradox is ? It's a mystery you haven't solved yet.

If you hit a paradox, it means you have an incomplete understanding of the subject. And, of course, the more you know, the less you completely understand.

Don't be afraid of that, it is just part of the learning process.

Knowledge doesn’t lead to “ignorance” it leads to paradox.

And paradoxes are just incomplete knowledge. The more knowledge you obtain, the more

paradoxes you are likely to resolve, but others reveal themselves And they are usually more complicated as you learn more.

Ignorant people exploit paradoxes as proof that knowledge is somehow tainted.

I disagree..

Christianity, as you well know, is chockablock with paradoxes, from trivial to sublime.

 

[RileyG]

We serve a merciful God. He will know exactly how to handle Mr. Nelson.

Amen.

 

[fide]

Yes.

and you also took the statements out of context

…..and I don’t think “ignorance“ means what you think it means.

First, there is no such thing as perfect or full knowledge in all matters at this moment in human history. That means we don’t know everything about everything. Having incomplete knowledge is not the same as being ignorant.

Second, you didn’t quote my post in its entirety

Knowledge doesn’t lead to “ignorance” it leads to paradox.

And paradoxes are just incomplete knowledge. The more knowledge you obtain, the more

paradoxes you are likely to resolve, but others reveal themselves And they are usually more complicated as you learn more.

Ignorant people exploit paradoxes as proof that knowledge is somehow tainted.

I disagree..

Christianity, as you well know, is chockablock with paradoxes, from trivial to sublime.

So you say the "learning process" is "chockablock with paradoxes from trivial to sublime," a paradox being "just incomplete knowledge," merely a "mystery you haven't solved yet. And further, " there is no such thing as perfect or full knowledge in all matters at this moment in human history. That means we don’t know everything about everything."

[Underlining added by me, above, for emphasis]

Would you say at some moment in human history "we will" understand all mysteries, and will "know everything about everything"? If so, when and how do you foresee this happening?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

So you say the "learning process" is "chockablock with paradoxes from trivial to sublime," a paradox being "just incomplete knowledge," merely a "mystery you haven't solved yet. And further, " there is no such thing as perfect or full knowledge in all matters at this moment in human history. That means we don’t know everything about everything."

[Underlining added by me, above, for emphasis]

No.

I said, “Christianity is chockablock with paradoxes”.

I don’t know why you continue to misquote me.

It’s weird.

And, frankly, big guy, you’re better than this. What got you off your game ?

Would you say at some moment in human history "we will" understand all mysteries, and will "know everything about everything"? If so, when and how do you foresee this happening?

This is a philosophical question, but I would say absolutely not. Human beings are extremely limited creatures that live, corporeally, in three dimensions in what appears, at the moment at least, to be an 11 dimensional universe. (or maybe 7, could be 13 – it’s a paradox). I doubt sincerely that we will ever plumb the depths of all that.

At the moment, we can’t even find all the dark matter that evidentially exist all around us and makes up 80% of the universe.

Nor can we explain at what distance quantum mechanics is replaced by Newtonian Physics or if the two are in some way related.

And those are pretty basic physics issues.

And that’s just physics.

We will never get to the bottom of any subject.

 

[Chrystal-J]

Hello,

I am currently (very slowly) reading the LDS (Latter Day Saint AKA Mormon) Quad (OT+ NT KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price).

It might take me years to get through the dry reading, and it's not exactly "easy reading."

Do you think it's spiritually harmful or neutral for a Catholic to read that material?

Peace

I studied info about the Jehovah Witnesses because they kept coming to my door. Found out a lot of things that don't line up with Christianity. It didn't influence me toward the JWs, in fact it drove me further away.

 

[Wolseley]

Well, way back at the tail-end of the Cretaceous Epoch, when I was in my twenties, I read the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads (Hindu); the Dhammapada (Buddhist); several compendiums of Orthodox Jewish readings culled from the Babylonian Talmud, and large sections of the Qur'an. None of it made me abandon Christ; in fact, it drove me closer to Him, seeing what these other belief systems advocated as far as salvation, redemption, and the knowledge of God goes.

None of these systems have anything to offer the Christian; they are, quite frankly, inferior to the Revealed Truth that the Catholic Faith presents, a Faith that offers forgiveness, absolution, and salvation without the uncertainties of, say, Hinduism, with its perpetual cycle of reincarnation; or the Talmud, which depends on a quite Pharisaical adherence to hundreds of ritual laws in order to remain in God's good graces. None of these other religions can offer complete assurance of forgiveness, because they depend entirely on the actions of the adherent to remain moral----and as we all know, it is literally impossible for a human being to remain without sin. Christ's redeeming sacrifice offers us what none of these other religions can.

I guess I'd say that if you're firm enough in your faith (as I was), then you can read these books without too much harm; a lot of them are like reading fantasy stories or comic novels---they're that ridiculous---but if you're not strong, stay away from them to avoid confusion. The Qur'an reinforced what I always suspected about Islam, and that is that it is at base level, a jumbled, warped, and misinterpreted hearsay version of various Jewish and Christian beliefs, mixed with the concepts of Mohammed himself---and much of what is advocated in the Qur'an is nothing more than evil.

So each individual must use his own judgement, but in the broadest sense, I'd say there's really nothing that most people can gain from reading this stuff; it doesn't add to your Faith, and a lot of it is confusing and just plain downright boring.

On the secular side, I have also read Das Kapital, the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and Mao Tse-tung's Little Red Book. Now if you really want to read some boring, stupid, warped junk, that stuff is it. All I got from that was that Hitler was obviously completely out of his friggin' mind, and Marx, while he undoubtedly believed in what he was advocating, was unable to grasp the practical realities of what his ideas would entail, i.e., it wouldn't work, it didn't work, it never has worked, and it never will work. You cannot build a thriving economy on socialism or communism; can't be done. And as for Mao, he had more in common with Mohammed than he did with Marx: if anybody disagrees with you, kill them.

 

[RileyG]

I studied info about the Jehovah Witnesses because they kept coming to my door. Found out a lot of things that don't line up with Christianity. It didn't influence me toward the JWs, in fact it drove me further away.

Doesn’t surprise me at all!

 

[fide]

No.

I said, “Christianity is chockablock with paradoxes”.

I don’t know why you continue to misquote me.

It’s weird.

And, frankly, big guy, you’re better than this. What got you off your game ?


This is a philosophical question, but I would say absolutely not. Human beings are extremely limited creatures that live, corporeally, in three dimensions in what appears, at the moment at least, to be an 11 dimensional universe. (or maybe 7, could be 13 – it’s a paradox). I doubt sincerely that we will ever plumb the depths of all that.

At the moment, we can’t even find all the dark matter that evidentially exist all around us and makes up 80% of the universe.

Nor can we explain at what distance quantum mechanics is replaced by Newtonian Physics or if the two are in some way related.

And those are pretty basic physics issues.

And that’s just physics.

We will never get to the bottom of any subject.

Have you ever heard of, or know about, the supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are given (when and if they are given) for the perfection (or spiritual maturation) of the supernatural theological and moral virtues? It is through these supernatural realities that our natural human nature, "made in the image and likeness of God", becomes capable of the eternal beatitude of the Holy Love and Truth in the Kingdom of God. That is, when we can actually, as resurrected and "deified" human persons, enter into the eternal Life which is the vocation God intended.

Those who seek will find, to those who knock the door will be opened, those who die in Him will be raised in Him. Most of the parables - mysteries - of Jesus point to this, the will of God for His own. The greatest obstacle to this beatitude? Disordered self-love, aka the idolatry of Self.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Have you ever heard of, or know about, the supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are given (when and if they are given) for the perfection (or spiritual maturation) of the supernatural theological and moral virtues? It is through these supernatural realities that our natural human nature, "made in the image and likeness of God", becomes capable of the eternal beatitude of the Holy Love and Truth in the Kingdom of God. That is, when we can actually, as resurrected and "deified" human persons, enter into the eternal Life which is the vocation God intended.

Those who seek will find, to those who knock the door will be opened, those who die in Him will be raised in Him. Most of the parables - mysteries - of Jesus point to this, the will of God for His own. The greatest obstacle to this beatitude? Disordered self-love, aka the idolatry of Self.

Oh yeah,

Here's the Fide I know:

vague, off subject and maybe even on your side, who knows ?

Welcome back my friend to the show that never ends.

 

[fide]

Oh yeah,

Here's the Fide I know:

vague, off subject and maybe even on your side, who knows ?

Welcome back my friend to the show that never ends.

But have you heard anything of the One you really need to know?

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

But have you heard anything of the One you really need to know?

Working on it my friend ,Working on it......

 

[fide]

Working on it my friend ,Working on it......

Well I hope you're working in the right way, with the right intention and methods, seeking earnestly for what is True. Many are not, and their efforts can bear no fruit. Some are, and they will succeed. It is not easy, but it is easier than the alternative which is impossible.

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.​

Mt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.​

 

[Bob Crowley]

I glanced through the Book of Mormon years ago. I gave up when every second paragraph started with "And it came to pass ...."

I think it's a work of fiction from beginning to end, with as much credibility as the Golden Plates that Smith was supposed to have found, a man with a criminal history and serial adulterer.

Controversies Surrounding Joseph Smith’s Polygamy

I just wrapped up an amazing interview with Dr. Turner. It was certainly an engaging discussion, even touching on unexpected controversies like the gold plates. In this episode, I’ll have a specifi…

wheatandtares.org

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wouldn't waste my time with Mormonism. They might have a great choir but so did the Red Army.

I've got an English translation of the Koran but haven't gotten around to reading it. I think there might be some wisdom to be gained from the Sufi's as they are the mystical equivalent within Islam. I believe the Enneagram derived from Sufi mysticism for example.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I I think there might be some wisdom to be gained from the Sufi's as they are the mystical equivalent within Islam. I believe the Enneagram derived from Sufi mysticism for example.

On this comment, I thought I'd better do some checking. It seems "... Many enneagram teachers believe that he (Georges I. Gurdjieff) learned the enneagram from Sufi mystics..."

A BRIEF REPORT ON THE ORIGINS OF THE ENNEAGRAM

These are stories from past, or back, issues of the National Catholic Reporter, the NCR.

natcath.org

Most enneagram teachers, however, assert that it is more ancient than Gurdjieff or Ichazo, though they do not agree on its precise origins and offer no solid historical evidence for their various theories. Gurdjieff gave his students to believe that knowledge of the enneagram has been passed down in secret within circles devoted to esoteric wisdom, perhaps for thousands of years, though he evidently never divulged from which group he supposedly learned it. Many enneagram teachers believe that he learned the enneagram from Sufi mystics, though in saying this they do not necessarily mean to deny that the enneagram could be older, since the Sufis themselves are reputed to pass down forms of wisdom that are older than their own school. Others assert that the enneagram has its origins in the numerological speculations of the Pythagoreans or the ancient wisdom of the Chaldeans.

Again, however, enneagram proponents have not produced any solid historical evidence to substantiate any of these claims. Although they acknowledge this they argue that the lack of concrete evidence is due to the fact that the enneagram was esoteric doctrine, never made public, but passed down in secret exclusively by oral tradition to select pupils.3 With regard to the possible preexistence of the enneagram before the teachings of Gurdjieff, the only information that historical research currently affords is the fact that the decimal point and the zero were not used by mathematicians until about the fourteenth century. Given that the numerology on which the enneagram is based depends on the decimal point, it is difficult to place the origin of the enneagram before that date.4

I'm not familiar enough with the enneagram to know about the numerology which it uses, but it was interesting that it depends on the existence of the decimal point which was not used by mathematicians until about the fourteenth century.

Decimal separator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The earliest known record of using the decimal point is in the astronomical tables compiled by the Italian merchant and mathematician Giovanni Bianchini in the 1440s.[13][contradictory]

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Well I hope you're working in the right way, with the right intention and methods, seeking earnestly for what is True. Many are not, and their efforts can bear no fruit. Some are, and they will succeed. It is not easy, but it is easier than the alternative which is impossible.

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.​

Mt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.​

Ahh, yes,

but In the words of Ibn Al Arabi:

"Do not attach yourself to any particular creed exclusively, so that you disbelieve in all the rest; otherwise you will lose much good, nay, you will fail to recognize the real truth of the matter. God, the omnipresent and omnipotent, cannot be confined in one creed"

 

[Wolseley]

I glanced through the Book of Mormon years ago. I gave up when every second paragraph started with "And it came to pass ...."

I think it's a work of fiction from beginning to end, with as much credibility as the Golden Plates that Smith was supposed to have found, a man with a criminal history and serial adulterer.

I read somewhere that it was most likely an unfinished novel that some unknown person had written, and later abandoned. Ne'er-do-well Smith found it and decided to see if he could make a buck by building it up into a pseudo-religion and get rich off his followers.

He was never really the guiding force behind Mormonism anyway.....that was Brigham Young.

I wouldn't waste my time with Mormonism. They might have a great choir but so did the Red Army.

I've got an English translation of the Koran but haven't gotten around to reading it. I think there might be some wisdom to be gained from the Sufi's as they are the mystical equivalent within Islam. I believe the Enneagram derived from Sufi mysticism for example.

I read some Sufi poetry way back when I was in college, about the tail-end of the Paleolithic Age.....but I don't remember much about it. That was long, long ago.

 

[RileyG]

I glanced through the Book of Mormon years ago. I gave up when every second paragraph started with "And it came to pass ...."

I think it's a work of fiction from beginning to end, with as much credibility as the Golden Plates that Smith was supposed to have found, a man with a criminal history and serial adulterer.

Controversies Surrounding Joseph Smith’s Polygamy

I just wrapped up an amazing interview with Dr. Turner. It was certainly an engaging discussion, even touching on unexpected controversies like the gold plates. In this episode, I’ll have a specifi…

wheatandtares.org

Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wouldn't waste my time with Mormonism. They might have a great choir but so did the Red Army.

I've got an English translation of the Koran but haven't gotten around to reading it. I think there might be some wisdom to be gained from the Sufi's as they are the mystical equivalent within Islam. I believe the Enneagram derived from Sufi mysticism for example.

Thanks for sharing. I gave up after the second page.