Is this a red flag to you?

[vortigen84]

Well to be fair this was the first time I heard him speak to the congregation. He didnt say it maliciously but more as a substitute for " holy sh...."

What he did wasn't good, but I'd show him some grace for now. If he does it again, take him aside and talk to him about it. Does he generally seem like Christian elder material? Is he mature, humble, gracious as a rule?

 

[Life2Christ]

Does he generally seem like Christian elder material? Is he mature, humble, gracious as a rule?

Yes.

 

[Twip7]

I don't know if it is a red flag. I do know that taking the Lord's name in vain, really made him look bad. Maybe it was something he scolded himself about once he said it. Perhaps this is something he struggles with. Maybe he kicked himself and asked God for the strength not to do it again. We don't know.
He is an elder - he's not God. He's human just like we are. He will make mistakes - just like we do. If he continued to take the Lord's name in vain, I would be more concerned.

 

[aiki]

How many times, exactly, must the elder take the Lord's name in vain before it is actually a concern to some of you? Using Christ's name as an expletive, showing so little regard for the precious name of his Savior, speaks rather loudly to this elder's inner attitude toward the Lord. Certainly, using Christ's name so vainly is a sin. So, how many times must this elder sin this way before it becomes a problem for some of you? Do you all think God has a three-strikes-you're-out policy? Do you think the perfectly holy Creator makes allowances for our sin? Do you think He turns a blind eye to it here and there, or winks at our sin if its only an occasional thing? If you do, I suggest you don't really know God at all!

Selah.

 

[brinny]

How many times, exactly, must the elder take the Lord's name in vain before it is actually a concern to some of you? Using Christ's name as an expletive, showing so little regard for the precious name of his Savior, speaks rather loudly to this elder's inner attitude toward the Lord. Certainly, using Christ's name so vainly is a sin. So, how many times must this elder sin this way before it becomes a problem for some of you? Do you all think God has a three-strikes-you're-out policy? Do you think the perfectly holy Creator makes allowances for our sin? Do you think He turns a blind eye to it here and there, or winks at our sin if its only an occasional thing? If you do, I suggest you don't really know God at all!

Selah.

Exactly.

 

[Trogool]

How many times, exactly, must the elder take the Lord's name in vain before it is actually a concern to some of you? Using Christ's name as an expletive, showing so little regard for the precious name of his Savior, speaks rather loudly to this elder's inner attitude toward the Lord. Certainly, using Christ's name so vainly is a sin. So, how many times must this elder sin this way before it becomes a problem for some of you? Do you all think God has a three-strikes-you're-out policy? Do you think the perfectly holy Creator makes allowances for our sin? Do you think He turns a blind eye to it here and there, or winks at our sin if its only an occasional thing? If you do, I suggest you don't really know God at all!

Selah.

Yes God makes allowances and doesn't keep track, it's called the doctrine of grace.

Certainly, it has to be done more than once, I'll go with three times to establish a pattern of behavior.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[aiki]

Yes God makes allowances and doesn't keep track, it's called the doctrine of grace.

Which you apparently do not understand. Every sin for which you are forgiven was paid for by Christ. He suffered in terrible agony on the cross, shedding his blood so that you might be forgiven. God has never made any allowance for your sin; He does not look the other way when you do what is evil. Instead, He placed the penalty for every wicked word, attitude, and deed you have committed upon Jesus - the same Jesus whose precious name this elder was so easy about using as an expletive! The grace in which you stand as a child of God should be regarded as the most precious gift in existence. The thought of taking advantage of that which cost Christ so much to supply to us should horrify every believer! It isn't for no reason Paul writes,

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid...

Certainly, it has to be done more than once, I'll go with three times to establish a pattern of behavior.

Christ took a very different view:

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Selah.

 

[Trogool]

Which you apparently do not understand. Every sin for which you are forgiven was paid for by Christ. He suffered in terrible agony on the cross, shedding his blood so that you might be forgiven. God has never made any allowance for your sin; He does not look the other way when you do what is evil. Instead, He placed the penalty for every wicked word, attitude, and deed you have committed upon Jesus - the same Jesus whose precious name this elder was so easy about using as an expletive! The grace in which you stand as a child of God should be regarded as the most precious gift in existence. The thought of taking advantage of that which cost Christ so much to supply to us should horrify every believer! It isn't for no reason Paul writes,

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid...



Christ took a very different view:

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Selah.

That's nice.

 

[brinny]

Which you apparently do not understand. Every sin for which you are forgiven was paid for by Christ. He suffered in terrible agony on the cross, shedding his blood so that you might be forgiven. God has never made any allowance for your sin; He does not look the other way when you do what is evil. Instead, He placed the penalty for every wicked word, attitude, and deed you have committed upon Jesus - the same Jesus whose precious name this elder was so easy about using as an expletive! The grace in which you stand as a child of God should be regarded as the most precious gift in existence. The thought of taking advantage of that which cost Christ so much to supply to us should horrify every believer! It isn't for no reason Paul writes,

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid...



Christ took a very different view:

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Selah.

Amen.

 

[aiki]

That's nice.

This is pretty much the kind of response I expected from you.

Selah.

 

[Twip7]

...I suggest you don't really know God at all!

Well, I think perhaps you are right in a way - I don't know your God. The God I know has covered me with His gift of grace. The God I know advised us to forgive one another 70 times 7. So how much more do you think He forgives us? Does that mean that I do whatever I want? No way, not at all. I do seek to know Him more fully, and to love Him as He has loved me. As that relationship grows, it is less likely that I would do things not pleasing to Him. I don't know many (any) people who believe that taking the name of the Lord in vain is *not* a sin. We ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, but if we confess our sins - God is faithful and just forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Since perfect people wouldn't need God's forgiveness of their sins, because they wouldn't sin, I guess this verse does not apply to them.
I cant help but wonder why God offered us forgiveness if He expected us to be perfect at all times...
I'm not as perfect as some of you seem to be. I gave my opinion on what the OP asked. I didnt say that she had to believe what I did, or that she was wrong if she believed otherwise. That's not my place. I did not expect someone else to question my knowledge of God or suggest that I didn't know Him at all. It seems I could say the same about you.
This thread is not for me.
*unsubscribe*

 

[Trogool]

This is pretty much the kind of response I expected from you.

Selah.

Considering you don't have any evidence of patterns of behavior or disregard for Christ in the elder, it didn't seem really relevant.

And seriously, aiki:

You really should calm down.

 

[Daughter of His]

Which you apparently do not understand. Every sin for which you are forgiven was paid for by Christ. He suffered in terrible agony on the cross, shedding his blood so that you might be forgiven. God has never made any allowance for your sin; He does not look the other way when you do what is evil. Instead, He placed the penalty for every wicked word, attitude, and deed you have committed upon Jesus - the same Jesus whose precious name this elder was so easy about using as an expletive! The grace in which you stand as a child of God should be regarded as the most precious gift in existence. The thought of taking advantage of that which cost Christ so much to supply to us should horrify every believer! It isn't for no reason Paul writes,

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid...



Christ took a very different view:

Matthew 12:35-37
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Selah.

Well said and amen.

 

[bsd31]

How many times, exactly, must the elder take the Lord's name in vain before it is actually a concern to some of you? Using Christ's name as an expletive, showing so little regard for the precious name of his Savior, speaks rather loudly to this elder's inner attitude toward the Lord. Certainly, using Christ's name so vainly is a sin. So, how many times must this elder sin this way before it becomes a problem for some of you? Do you all think God has a three-strikes-you're-out policy? Do you think the perfectly holy Creator makes allowances for our sin? Do you think He turns a blind eye to it here and there, or winks at our sin if its only an occasional thing? If you do, I suggest you don't really know God at all!

Selah.

So what exactly is your suggestion to correct the issue? Should he sit in a pile of dust and ashes for a few weeks crying out for mercy and forgiveness? Another form of public self-abasement to atone? Maybe he's likened unto a leper and should just spend his time outside the walls of the camp from this point forward?

No one is saying it isn't a terrible thing to use the Lord's Name in vain. But no one seems to be real clear on how this elder (or anyone else who ever does it) should go about showing a proper amount of Godly sorrow in the public eye. Maybe there is no atoning for such a heinous crime? Perhaps God should just strike him down here and now and be done with it?

 

[Ark100]

As much as I agree with some of the things 'Aiki' said on this thread, I disagree with some of them.
For one, twip was correct in stating her view and its a biblical view. Forgiveness matters to God. Her #71 post is excellent and I could not fault it one bit.
Who has not sinned before? Let them cast the first stone.
Who would have thought Jesus would defend a prostitute. Many people regard prostitutes as filths, especially in those days, they would be stoned.
The LORD FORGIVES. That's His work. He saves, redeems and forgives
Im always emphasising the part where people who intentionally keep sinning are trampling the Son of man all over again, and its disrespectful to the Lord for anyone to think its okay to keep sinning and not be conscious of it because they felt The Lord had saved them. They are getting it all wrong.
At the same time, this elder is not God. He is human. I am sure everyone on this forum has sinned and fallen short one way or the other. Let one without sin raise their hands.
People put too much expectations on men of God that they forget that these people are also human.
When you learn to trust and understand that only God and His Son, Jesus Christ is not with sin, then you would know and understand that humans make mistakes.

 

[Daughter of His]

No we don't put too many expectations on man. But if one is holding a church office they need to be setting a good example. What if someone was in that church that da y for the first time??? Again I say it is NOT an issue of forgiveness, that is between the person and God.

 

[bsd31]

No we don't put too many expectations on man. But if one is holding a church office they need to be setting a good example. What if someone was in that church that da y for the first time??? Again I say it is NOT an issue of forgiveness, that is between the person and God.

If it isn't an issue of forgiveness then what pray-tell is the issue? Exactly? What should be the outcome?

 

[Daughter of His]

The issue is that the person holding an office needs to have particular characteristics so that he/she qualifies as a leader. If the man again demonstrated another similar misuse of the Lord's name I would say he should be asked to step down immediately. It's not ok.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Personally, I think I would increase my prayer time for this man. I don't think it's something to ask him to step down over, or even publicly repent of, but I would ask God to convict him of this. I think this is one of the reasons that people in leadership positions are required to live up to a higher standard. This kind of thing can lead someone astray.

 

[aiki]

Well, I think perhaps you are right in a way - I don't know your God. The God I know has covered me with His gift of grace. The God I know advised us to forgive one another 70 times 7. So how much more do you think He forgives us? Does that mean that I do whatever I want? No way, not at all. I do seek to know Him more fully, and to love Him as He has loved me. As that relationship grows, it is less likely that I would do things not pleasing to Him. I don't know many (any) people who believe that taking the name of the Lord in vain is *not* a sin. We ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, but if we confess our sins - God is faithful and just forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Since perfect people wouldn't need God's forgiveness of their sins, because they wouldn't sin, I guess this verse does not apply to them.

The fact that none of us is perfect does not alleviate the responsibility of elders to be blameless. That's right, blameless. This is the word Paul uses in his directives to Timothy about bishops and deacons in the church (1Tim. 3). "Blameless" is sometimes also rendered as "above reproach" or "unrebukeable." It is because this is the high standard to which elders are to be held that they are not to be "novices" in the faith. Must elders be perfect, then? No, that's not humanly possible. But sin must definitely be the rare exception rather than the rule in the life of an elder. And if he should sin - especially before those he leads - he is to be rebuked "before all" if he does not confess and repent of his sin voluntarily (1Tim. 5:19, 20).

I didnt say that she had to believe what I did, or that she was wrong if she believed otherwise.

Nor did I. Instead, I referred to God's Word. People can ignore what it says if they like but they can't pretend the Bible does not say what it says on this matter.

That's not my place. I did not expect someone else to question my knowledge of God or suggest that I didn't know Him at all. It seems I could say the same about you.
This thread is not for me.

My comments were of the "if the shoe fits, wear it" kind. If you believe my comments do not apply to you, then ignore them.

Considering you don't have any evidence of patterns of behavior or disregard for Christ in the elder, it didn't seem really relevant.

See my last post. Oh, and by the way, I am quite calm. I can't say as I think much of your adolescent responses, but one can't expect gold from every lump of rock one comes across.

So what exactly is your suggestion to correct the issue? Should he sit in a pile of dust and ashes for a few weeks crying out for mercy and forgiveness? Another form of public self-abasement to atone? Maybe he's likened unto a leper and should just spend his time outside the walls of the camp from this point forward?

WHy is this silliness what you suggest? What does the Bible direct us to do in this situation? Do you know? It does offer very specific steps to follow in approaching a brother and an elder in whom sin has been found. Do you know where?

For one, twip was correct in stating her view and its a biblical view. Forgiveness matters to God. Her #71 post is excellent and I could not fault it one bit.
Who has not sinned before? Let them cast the first stone.
Who would have thought Jesus would defend a prostitute. Many people regard prostitutes as filths, especially in those days, they would be stoned.

If you are unable to make a distinction between a prostitute and a church elder, you will be quite incapable of understanding my comments. Never have I suggested that forgiveness is somehow off the table in dealing with a believer who has sinned. But acknowledging God's forgiveness of our sin does not negate Paul's commands to Timothy about the necessary conduct of an elder. You ought also to consider your "cast the first stone" policy in light of 1Corinthians 5!

Selah.