Is this a legitimate request?

Akureyri · Oct 8, 2013

Many Christians I know claim that God knows everything and wants everyone to believe he exists. They also claim that they communicate back and forth with God.

So I'll say I'm thinking of a number from 1 to ten million. I'll ask the Christian to ask God what number I'm thinking of and when God reports back to them with the number that they share it with me. If they are right that God wants me to believe he exists, that God knows everything and that they can communicate back and forth with God, then they should have no trouble producing the number. But they refuse to take me up on my offer. As I don't see anything wrong with this request, it suggests that the Christians making these three claims aren't being intellectually honest.

aiki · Oct 8, 2013

You know, I'm pretty sure you went by another name on this forum: Munising. You're asking the very same questions you did before. Why?

Selah.

Sedoy · Oct 8, 2013

Basically a variation of this same question:

Can God make a rock so big he can't pick it up?

It is not in God’s nature to answer stupid questions asked only to test Him.

It is not in your nature to test God. You cannot. Nobody can.

cerette · Oct 8, 2013

There are no promises in the Scriptures that God would communicate back and forth in that manner. A lot of Christians claim they communicate with God in that way, but personally I don't believe they do. I don't accuse them of bluntly lying, but I think they are theologically confused and they think they're communicating with God when in fact they are not.

God has revealed Himself to us in nature (the creation) and in His Word (the Bible).

Sedoy · Oct 8, 2013

cerette said:
There are no promises in the Scriptures that God would communicate back and forth in that manner. A lot of Christians claim they communicate with God in that way, but personally I don't believe they do. I don't accuse them of bluntly lying, but I think they are theologically confused and they think they're communicating with God when in fact they are not.

God has revealed Himself to us in nature (the creation) and in His Word (the Bible).

God who talked personally to Noah, Moses, Abraham.......... is still the same God so He still talks to believers and followers. Many who believe that God is talking to them simply do not know His voice because they do not have personal relationship with God. They maybe listening to other voices of which there are many.

God is outside of time so He has time for everybody.

Akureyri · Oct 9, 2013

Sedoy said:
Basically a variation of this same question:

Can God make a rock so big he can't pick it up?

If God can do anything, then he can make a rock so big that he can't pick it up.
1) He creates the rock
2) He diminishes his omnipotence such that he can do anything except lift the rock
3) He attempts to lift the rock and fails

It is not in Gods nature to answer stupid questions asked only to test Him.

It is not in your nature to test God. You cannot. Nobody can.

One can tell what one prefers by watching their actions. If your god is real, it is clear that he doesn't care whether or not I believe he exists, as he hasn't done anything to demonstrate his existence.

My request isn't meant to test God. It is meant as an opportunity for your god to show me he is real. If he is real, I would like to see that he is real. If he is indeed real, he is free to accept or reject my proposal.

Akureyri · Oct 9, 2013

cerette said:
There are no promises in the Scriptures that God would communicate back and forth in that manner. A lot of Christians claim they communicate with God in that way, but personally I don't believe they do. I don't accuse them of bluntly lying, but I think they are theologically confused and they think they're communicating with God when in fact they are not.

God has revealed Himself to us in nature (the creation) and in His Word (the Bible).

What evidence do you have that a god is the cause of nature?

What evidence do you have that the Bible is the word of God?

Spaceman 3 · Oct 9, 2013

Akureyri said:
Many Christians I know claim that God knows everything and wants everyone to believe he exists. They also claim that they communicate back and forth with God.

So I'll say I'm thinking of a number from 1 to ten million. I'll ask the Christian to ask God what number I'm thinking of and when God reports back to them with the number that they share it with me. If they are right that God wants me to believe he exists, that God knows everything and that they can communicate back and forth with God, then they should have no trouble producing the number. But they refuse to take me up on my offer. As I don't see anything wrong with this request, it suggests that the Christians making these three claims aren't being intellectually honest.

It's a bit 'primary school', innit?

bling · Oct 9, 2013

Akureyri said:
Many Christians I know claim that God knows everything and wants everyone to believe he exists. They also claim that they communicate back and forth with God.

So I'll say I'm thinking of a number from 1 to ten million. I'll ask the Christian to ask God what number I'm thinking of and when God reports back to them with the number that they share it with me. If they are right that God wants me to believe he exists, that God knows everything and that they can communicate back and forth with God, then they should have no trouble producing the number. But they refuse to take me up on my offer. As I don't see anything wrong with this request, it suggests that the Christians making these three claims aren't being intellectually honest.

A similar request was made by Nebuchadnezzar:

Dan. 2: 2 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.
4 Then the astrologers answered the king, May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.
5 The king replied to the astrologers, This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me.

My question of you is: Can you provide a similar result if we give or not give you the answer?

Nebuchadnezzar: 47 The king said to Daniel, Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniels request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

If you cannot and will not than this is just some game?

Faulty · Oct 9, 2013

Akureyri said:
Many Christians I know claim that God knows everything and wants everyone to believe he exists. They also claim that they communicate back and forth with God.

So I'll say I'm thinking of a number from 1 to ten million. I'll ask the Christian to ask God what number I'm thinking of and when God reports back to them with the number that they share it with me. If they are right that God wants me to believe he exists, that God knows everything and that they can communicate back and forth with God, then they should have no trouble producing the number. But they refuse to take me up on my offer. As I don't see anything wrong with this request, it suggests that the Christians making these three claims aren't being intellectually honest.

He's already given you everything you need to believe. Don't try to play some game as if you're saying, "I reject everything mentioned in His scriptures, but if someone gives me whatever number I'm thinking of, then that I'll believe."

Yeah, right. I can see it now...

"3,998,813"
"Pffft... lucky guess!!"

Sedoy · Oct 10, 2013

Akureyri said:
If your god is real, it is clear that he doesn't care whether or not I believe he exists, as he hasn't done anything to demonstrate his existence.
.

Existence of God is totally independent of your belief in Him.

Let me tell you a story.

Two ants go though their daily walk in the desert somewhere in the desert of, say, Arizona.

They come upon this giant wall that is made of some hard material and seems to have no beginning or end to it.
Ant #2 asks ant #1 what is it?
Ant #1 says: ”This is a rail of the railroad on which people ship goods for thousands of miles and it is owned by Mister Smith who lives in Chicago”
Ant #2 says: “Now this is the most ridiculous story I have ever heard! I am going to prove to you that Mister Smith does not exist in the next 10 seconds!”

Ant #2 climbs up on top of that wall and declares: “If Mister Smith does not show up and proves his existence to me in the next 10 seconds I will not believe in him!”

1,2,3……9,10. Needless to say Mister Smith did not show up. But the train came through.

See, there are “walls” like that are everywhere, all around you. You bump into them all the time but you simply refuse to see them.

Akureyri · Oct 10, 2013

bling said:
A similar request was made by Nebuchadnezzar:

Dan. 2: 2 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.
4 Then the astrologers answered the king, May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.
5 The king replied to the astrologers, This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me.

My question of you is: Can you provide a similar result if we give or not give you the answer?

Nebuchadnezzar: 47 The king said to Daniel, Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniels request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

If you cannot and will not than this is just some game?

It's an opportunity for God (if he is real) to show me he is real. If you or your god (if he exists) wishes to think it's a game, I can't do anything about that.

Akureyri · Oct 10, 2013

Sedoy said:
Existence of God is totally independent of your belief in Him.

Let me tell you a story.

Two ants go though their daily walk in the desert somewhere in the desert of, say, Arizona.

They come upon this giant wall that is made of some hard material and seems to have no beginning or end to it.
Ant #2 asks ant #1 what is it?
Ant #1 says: This is a rail of the railroad on which people ship goods for thousands of miles and it is owned by Mister Smith who lives in Chicago
Ant #2 says: Now this is the most ridiculous story I have ever heard! I am going to prove to you that Mister Smith does not exist in the next 10 seconds!

Ant #2 climbs up on top of that wall and declares: If Mister Smith does not show up and proves his existence to me in the next 10 seconds I will not believe in him!

1,2,39,10. Needless to say Mister Smith did not show up. But the train came through.

See, there are walls like that are everywhere, all around you. You bump into them all the time but you simply refuse to see them.

My goal isn't to disprove or prove the existence of a god. This is merely an opportunity for you or your god (if it is real) to show me that it is real. No more, no less.

Akureyri · Oct 10, 2013

Faulty said:
He's already given you everything you need to believe. Don't try to play some game as if you're saying, "I reject everything mentioned in His scriptures, but if someone gives me whatever number I'm thinking of, then that I'll believe."

Yeah, right. I can see it now...

"3,998,813"
"Pffft... lucky guess!!"

The Bible is evidence of the Bible. It is not evidence that a supreme being exists. I'm asking for evidence that a supreme being exists.

The number you guessed isn't right. Did you guess that on your own? Or was that number provided to you by your god?

Sedoy · Oct 11, 2013

Akureyri said:
It's an opportunity for God (if he is real) to show me he is real. If you or your god (if he exists) wishes to think it's a game, I can't do anything about that.

Like I said. It is the other way around. Ant can go see if Mister Smith exists. Mister Smith has no obligation to an ant to prove his existence.

In your pride you cannot even imagine existence of somebody greater then yourself. MUCH, MUCH greater! In His wisdom He left “walls”, signs directing to Him everywhere. You are bumping into them all the time yet you demand that The Creator of the universe and everything in it proves His existence to you.

You have no capability to give God an opportunity to do anything but you have all kinds of opportunities to find God.

To answer your original question…. No it is not a legitimate question.

.

bling · Oct 11, 2013

Akureyri said:
It's an opportunity for God (if he is real) to show me he is real. If you or your god (if he exists) wishes to think it's a game, I can't do anything about that.

You are not taking into consideration the huge problem this would create for you.

Humans need faith (trust) and the easiest think to trust in/ believe/ have faith in is the existence of a Benevolent Creator (any living thing is evidence of God if you accept the evidence.)

You want knowledge of the Benevolent Creator without the need for faith, when it is faith you really need.

If in a dream, God did give me the number you were thinking and I gave you that number personally not knowing if it was really correct, than you would have this unbelievable knowledge of Gods existence, I say unbelievable, because you would be the only person with the certainty of the answer and knowledge that God must exist, so how would that change you or would it?

How would you personally feel as the possessor of this unbelievable knowledge?

How do you convince the next person of Gods existence and/or why would you try or not try?

What would God get out of youre not trusting in Him, but youre now acknowledging His existence and going about your way?

Would this knowledge tend to puff you up (no one else was given this knowledge)? (Is knowledge power?) How will you handle such unbelievable knowledge?

Akureyri · Oct 13, 2013

Sedoy said:
Like I said. It is the other way around. Ant can go see if Mister Smith exists. Mister Smith has no obligation to an ant to prove his existence.

However, if Mr. Smith wants the ant to believe he exists, then in order to fulfill his desire, he would have to demonstrate to the ant that he exists.

In your pride you cannot even imagine existence of somebody greater then yourself. MUCH, MUCH greater!

It's not an issue of pride. It's an issue of what is observable to me.

In His wisdom He left walls, signs directing to Him everywhere. You are bumping into them all the time yet you demand that The Creator of the universe and everything in it proves His existence to you.

I am not demanding that anyone prove their existence to me.

If a god did leave signs directing me to him, he didn't do a very good job.

You have no capability to give God an opportunity to do anything but you have all kinds of opportunities to find God.

I can't find something which doesn't appear to exist. However, if this is some kind of a test - in which "God" is something which exists in the real world and is readily apparent to all - then perhaps you could tell me what real thing in this world God is.

To answer your original question. No it is not a legitimate question.

I wasn't asking if it were a legitimate question. I asked if it were a legitimate request.

Akureyri · Oct 13, 2013

bling said:
You are not taking into consideration the huge problem this would create for you.

What problem would this create for me?

Humans need faith (trust) and the easiest think to trust in/ believe/ have faith in is the existence of a Benevolent Creator (any living thing is evidence of God if you accept the evidence.)

I can't have trust in something which I don't believe to exist. Or is God something which is apparent to everyone? If so, then what real thing in this universe is it you are calling God?

You want knowledge of the Benevolent Creator without the need for faith, when it is faith you really need.

Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason to believe something. I won't believe something unless I do have a good reason. If your god is real, then I'm giving him an opportunity to give me a good reason to believe he exists.

If in a dream, God did give me the number you were thinking and I gave you that number personally not knowing if it was really correct, than you would have this unbelievable knowledge of Gods existence, I say unbelievable, because you would be the only person with the certainty of the answer and knowledge that God must exist, so how would that change you or would it?

It would allow me to know that the god you and other Christians believe in is real. Would it change me in any other way? Probably not.

How would you personally feel as the possessor of this unbelievable knowledge?

If it was knowledge, then it wouldn't be unbelievable.

How do you convince the next person of Gods existence and/or why would you try or not try?

I don't try to convince people of the existence of something which doesn't appear to exist.

What would God get out of youre not trusting in Him, but youre now acknowledging His existence and going about your way?

That's not material to this discussion. If God wants me to believe he exists, then the ball is on his side of the court.

Would this knowledge tend to puff you up (no one else was given this knowledge)? (Is knowledge power?) How will you handle such unbelievable knowledge?

If it was knowledge, it wouldn't be unbelievable.

Knowledge isn't power. Application of knowledge is power.

Sketcher · Oct 13, 2013

If you're going to say you're holding God to such a test, we can't trust you to not lie about the results of said test.

Akureyri · Oct 14, 2013

Sketcher said:
If you're going to say you're holding God to such a test, we can't trust you to not lie about the results of said test.

First, it's not a test. Second, it shouldn't concern you if I lie about the number. This isn't meant to convince you of anything. It's meant to convince me.

Is this a legitimate request?

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