Is this a Dealbreaker?

[mkgal1]

That is precisely what Jesus did, and precisely what He is asking us to do. To lay down our own lives, to reckon ourselves dead, to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven. That is what He say's His followers will do. If we aren't taking up OUR cross and laying down our life daily we aren't following Him. Simple as that, and only by the Holy Spirit can we hope for Him to finish His work in us. I don't always hit the mark, I'm still dealing with my flesh, but I press forward like Paul to as high of a calling and reward as He has for me.

Jesus isn't asking us to do what He has already done. That work is finished.

 

[LinkH]

Our Christian wedding ceremony is based on Biblical principle.

The idea that the custom of reciting vows make you married is not a Biblical principle. It was something practiced in pre-Christian Roman culture, though. Old Testament marriage covenants (and probably the wedding mentioned in John 2) were made by an exchange of a bride price. Judaism's customs for weddings evolved over time.

You had originally said that two people of the same gender living together is called roommates; I had responded that roommates don't typically make covenants with each other (like David and Jonathan did).

There is no evidence they lived together either. They used to eat dinner at Saul's table. Having a covenant with someone, living with someone, and marriage aren't all the same thing. You can have a covenant with someone and not be married, or live in the same house as someone and not be married.

Marriage is something God ordained between man and woman. We see this in Genesis. Christ wisely pointed to Genesis to teach others an understanding on marriage. There is no Adam and Steve in the passage.

 

[I Art Laughing]

Our Christian wedding ceremony is based on Biblical principle. You had originally said that two people of the same gender living together is called roommates; I had responded that roommates don't typically make covenants with each other (like David and Jonathan did).

I made covenants with my roommates all the time. You pay the rent this month and I'll get next month. You wash the dishes and I'll make dinner. I'll take the trash out every other week......can I borrow your car if I put gas in it? Those are covenants.

 

[I Art Laughing]

Jesus isn't asking us to do what He has already done. That work is finished.

Wrong. So wrong. This explains a lot. His work is finished ours is NOT.

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
(Luk 9:23-24)

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
(1Co 15:27-31)

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
(Php 3:13-18)

And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
(Luk 9:61-62)

And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:23-27)

Being told to run so that I might obtain doesn't sound like "mission accomplished" to me.

And finally we are to mortify (put to death) the things of the flesh and suffer as Jesus Christ suffered:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
(Luk 22:42)

That is suffering.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Rom 8:13-17)

Did He mortify the deeds of OUR bodies 2000 years ago for us? What is Paul suggesting here?

 

[I Art Laughing]

I think we have ample evidence here to suggest that this may very well be a deal-breaker. Anyone with a traditional and steadfast view of the Bible that is potentially marrying anyone with a liberal and equally steadfast of the Bible might find a preview of coming attractions here.

Notice in this debate did anyone (that I saw) suggest that God hated people tempted with homosexuality yet the word "homophobe" started getting chucked around. I do my best to overcome my inclination to be uncomfortable around people so tempted (or even actively homosexual). They need to be won to the Lord and giving them both barrels about how their lifestyle is an abomination is not always the opening move. I know God loves them, and I'm constantly praying that He would give me the grace to love them as He does. I know that is the only way that He will reach them through me. It is a sin, a sin like the many uncountable sins that I have committed, but it is still a sin. Any sin that is not repented of and turned from is a rejection of Christ.

To me that looks like it isn't good enough for the liberal view of the Bible that would have us turn not only the Bible, but Church tradition on its ear for the sake of being politically correct and socially acceptable. I can't imagine a marriage with this as an underlying (or overarching) problem.

 

[mkgal1]

I made covenants with my roommates all the time. You pay the rent this month and I'll get next month. You wash the dishes and I'll make dinner. I'll take the trash out every other week......can I borrow your car if I put gas in it? Those are covenants.

My original point was that normally a roommate agreement only lasts as long as the lease.....not for life.

 

[mkgal1]

I think we have ample evidence here to suggest that this may very well be a deal-breaker.

I agree/ thread.

 

[I Art Laughing]

My original point was that normally lasts as long as the lease.....not for life.

Are you suggesting modern Christian marriage is more like a lease or for life? Sometimes I get confused.

 

[mkgal1]

Are you suggesting modern Christian marriage is more like a lease or for life? Sometimes I get confused.

No. I wasn't speaking of "modern Christian marriage". As a recap of what was said:

If two guys are living together without having sex or sexual lust, then that isn't sin. That's called having a roommate. They wouldn't be calling themselves a 'same-sex couple' either. Have you ever had a female roommate or friend? Does that make you gay?

But how can you call that 'monogamous'? That doesn't even make sense. We don't use that term for roommates.

It is not a sin to have a friend of the same gender. And friends are supposed to love each other. But if someone has to think of gay sex acts when we talk about two believers of the same gender loving each other, then that person is just dirty minded.

At that point, I had said that I wasn't the one "thinking of gay sex acts"....I was referring mostly to the loyalty aspect for life as the foundation.

This may be the point where our contention is. God is a jealous God. Marriage (I believe even a same-sex union) is to mirror God's exclusive relationship with us. We are to "have no other gods before Him." We are to be devoted only unto Him---forsaking anything that renders us impure and separated from Him (obviously we disagree on what qualifies there). A married man loving another woman (even without sex) is forsaking his wife.....that's why he "can't" sleep with another woman. He can, BTW......it's just that it would be "wicked" to do so.

I've never had a roommate that I have promised (actually vowed before God) to never leave or forsake. I have never promised a roommate that I will love, honor, and cherish them "all the days of my life". Typically the life expectancy of a roommate relationship is as long as the lease is.

If one is of the belief that marriage is about sex......they might have difficulty grasping monogomy and loyalty for life.

This is what's said about David and Jonathan (in the Bible, BTW), and it's the same characteristics as what I have witnessed with same-sex couples (I have never been referring to sex acts---but this sort of relationship....this sort of devotion......this sort of loyalty and admiration for one another---knitted together):

Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself. Saul took him that day and did not let him return to his father's house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, including his sword and his bow and his belt. So David went out wherever Saul sent him, and prospered; and Saul set him over the men of war.

Saul and Jonathan, beloved and pleasant in their life, And in their death they were not parted; They were swifter than eagles, They were stronger than lions... "How have the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! Jonathan is slain on your high places. "I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful Than the love of women. "How have the mighty fallen, And the weapons of war perished!" [14]

Which sounds a lot like Ephesians 4:16:

And from him, the whole body is being fitted and held together by the support of every joint, with each part working to fulfill its function; this is how the body grows and builds itself up in love

Which is hardly "wicked"......in fact, it says--"from Him".

 

[Athene]

Yeah, because we should follow human centered understanding rather than God centered understanding. That has been demonstrated quite well to great extent already in our society. I think the Bible says some things about that too.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you think we should go back to believing disabilities and diseases are curses and therefore people who are suffering from those things should be treated as if they're sinners of the worst sort whose mere presence in a church would profane it? Our understanding of diseases and disabilities is based on human reasoning, whereas the people who believed diseases and disabilities were curses based their belief on the Bible.

 

[JRSut1000]

Lol, sorry. I believe that babies are born with a sin nature, that they only care about themselves (which is completely "natural"). They are totally selfish and they need to be taught that there are other people with needs out there besides them. We start off as little narcissists and unless our parents or the world train us otherwise that is what we will remain. It is only by understanding God and putting an end to our own self-seeking flesh, putting on Christ's life that we have any hope at overcoming the black hole of selfish desires that resides within our souls that we inherited from Adam.

Consider this, do babies (who I believe are innocent because the don't have the capacity to be otherwise) have flesh? Do they have need and desires (yes, even "healthy" ones)? That is life seeking behavior, it is focused on self preservation, in other words it is selfish.

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
(Luk 9:23-25)

I believe that as soon as we are volitionally able grasp what Jesus is saying here we begin to fall under the obligation of it (whether we hear it at 12 or 37).

God lets us know that he understands are ignorance/innocence and that He will suffer it for a season:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(Act 17:30)

And some may wonder at what is so wrong about the "natural" flesh, we are all born with it, it is only natural that a baby/child/youth/adult feel this way...

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:3-14)

So when someone comes along and says that God made a homosexuals flesh a certain way, that they were "born that way" they are doing nothing but pointing at the flesh. They are, in my opinion, being carnally minded because they seem to care more about brain chemicals and DNA than they do about the Holy Spirit. If we follow the dictates of the flesh Roman's 8 promises us that we will DIE. It's not unless we overcome the flesh that we will live.

The Bible made a provision, that often gets ignored, for sexual attraction. It is marriage clearly specified between a husband and his wife. All other sex is perverse and outside of the parameters set forth by the inspired word of God through Paul (who personally recommended that none should marry). Apart from that one exception no provision is made for sex of any kind.

Someone suggesting that their flesh makes them a homosexual doesn't seem to stand up to Romans 8 scrutiny. Suggesting that God has given them a Holy Spirit urge for same sex "love" is equally perverse.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
(2Pe 3:11-17)

(Not calling you wicked JRSut.)

I know this is pretty late in the conversation, but I just wanted to say thanks for clarifying. This makes perfect sense.

 

[JRSut1000]

Disabilities and diseases and sin is what we're born into because of the fall. But again, is not Christ able to do all things? In Him, cant we be free from entrapment to sin? Is His arm not long enough to save? (thats from the Bible) And didnt He come to forgive all our sins and heal all our diseases? (Isaiah) Whose report will we believe, mans or the LORDs? Man tries to make excuses, but GOD has the solutions.

 

[I Art Laughing]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you think we should go back to believing disabilities and diseases are curses and therefore people who are suffering from those things should be treated as if they're sinners of the worst sort whose mere presence in a church would profane it? Our understanding of diseases and disabilities is based on human reasoning, whereas the people who believed diseases and disabilities were curses based their belief on the Bible.

When a modernist comes along and wants to pat James, Peter and Paul on the heads as benighted savages, I just shake mine. I see the Bible as a cohesive work that can't be picked at and manipulated and massaged into whatever suits on a given day. For that reason alone I am always greatful to our all knowing, omnipotent God who could see the end from the beginning and has no shadow of turning. The Bible isn't a living document that is pliable in the hands of the motivated progressive, the Word is a living person and when you wrestle Him He wrestles back. If we don't meet Him in the volume of the book and get "fresh bread" by the Holy Spirit we will always be eating day old mana and complaining about the taste of worms.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
(Jas 4:6-10)

 

[Athene]

It's p.amusing to me that you're twisting each way you can to avoid answering direct questions.

 

[Athene]

Also, you act like wrestling with the Bible and drawing new conclusions is something only modernists do. If that is indeed what you believe then oh dear.

 

[I Art Laughing]

Also, you act like wrestling with the Bible and drawing new conclusions is something only modernists do. If that is indeed what you believe then oh dear.

Who is God? A historical figure to be manipulated? Or the Alpha and the Omega? You can't out "progress" God, when you try you end up with what is called "another Gospel".

 

[I Art Laughing]

It's p.amusing to me that you're twisting each way you can to avoid answering direct questions.

Here is a direct question:

How can a person claim to be a follower unless they do what Jesus tells them that His followers do?

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
(Luk 9:23-25)

Jesus is the answer, and dying to ourselves is the key to every problem we confront. Without starting there we won't get anywhere.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
(Jas 4:6-10)

As long as we are thinking that we can outsmart God, and do whatever WE want with the Word, we haven't begun to have the humble attitude that he requires to meet us, we'll never "draw nigh".

 

[Anessa14]

... I dont want my children walking down the street and seeing two men kissing.

Please protect them from Europe and the Mediterranean, where same sex couples kiss hello and goodbye all the time.....

Note: I haven't finished reading this thread

 

[mkgal1]

Btw, this is sick and perhaps even blasphemous. It is the relationship between husband and wife--clearly of different genders-- that represents Christ and the church. God is presented as married to Israel-- a female in the analogy.

The 'gay marriage' thing goes against marriage as it is ordained in Genesis. If you will notice carefully, God created a woman out of the man's rib, not another man. I.e. "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"--that isn't marriage.

"Sick"? "Blasphemous"? Aren't YOU (a male) included in the Marriage of the Lamb? Isn't marriage on earth ultimately pointing to that? Why would it be so far reaching......so "sick"....and "perhaps even blasphemous" to say that a same gender marriage would point to that?

 

[I Art Laughing]

"Sick"? "Blasphemous"? Aren't YOU (a male) included in the Marriage of the Lamb? Isn't marriage on earth ultimately pointing to that? Why would it be so far reaching......so "sick"....and "perhaps even blasphemous" to say that a same gender marriage would point to that?

Yeah, there we go. Aren't we glad that there is no male or female IN Christ? Now we get comparisons of the marriage supper of the Lamb when discussing homosexual marriage. I guess Lesbians are going to be really disappointed at that point. Maybe God can come up with a Lesbian Jesus too, just so they won't have to suffer through all of eternity unloved by someone with the proper plumbing.