Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

[razzelflabben]

Because for someone to have worked their way all the way into the eldership, deaconship, or some official teaching position before coming out with their homosexuality, or any other sexual sin for that matter, is not all that is necessary for them to be a disruptive force within the church. The scriptures I gave you do not say only if they are a teacher. They also include the unrepentant rebel who continues in sin even after instructed otherwise. Even if a person is just a regular Sunday school attender, but constantly raises the issue that their homosexuality is not a sin, and practices it openly while still maintaining they are Christian, makes them an example that goes against how we are taught to behave.

I agree a teacher should be called by God, but the question is how anyone else is to know if they have been or not. These are the qualifications we are given to work with. As I said, we have no magic wand to wave to know the person's soul.

the opposite is true as well, how can the person struggling with homosexuality in the church (body of believers), know that what they are being told to believe is right according to God rather than just a teaching of the church? There are so many fractions of christian belief, (evidenced by denominations) and so many so called interpretations, that it would be very difficult for someone to know what is from God and what is not. How would a homosexual know that you were not one of the false teachers he has been warned about, telling him that homosexuality is a sin rather than a messanger of God proclaiming truth? Anything can be justified through scirpture, we see it all the time, so how can the person who desires to believe one thing, know what is of God and what is of the church?

 

[Shane Roach]

This makes much more since than the previous posts as I understood them. I still have a couple of minor problems however, the one big problem I still have is what about the person who hides their sin. They are no less sinning, and proclaiming that sin to be no sin by thier continual practise of that behavior but the church doesn't know about the sin so therefore, does not take the same action. I think this is why some issues are left to the Holy Spirit and why it is vital for the church to act like the body, family of God for in a family, it is extremely dificult though possible, to hide things. It is also imparitive that we have share groups where we are free to share things without FEAR of judgement whether real or percieved. In this way, we know where the person is in thier walk with God and whether or not the "non repentance" is due to lack of maturity, lack of teaching, lack of understanding, lack of caring, justification, or any number of other issues that need addressed before more sever action is taken. If I limp because of a splinter, it is improper to cut off my foot. If the thought process is, the person should be removed from the membership and then we hope he finds the answers to the real problem, we are not acting like a family. If we first act with compassion and love and find out the problem and remove the splinter as it were, then no harsher measures need to be taken. Always remembering that some wounds take longer to heal than others.

Well, it's just that the Bible doesn't give us any way to deal with someone's sin that we don't know anything about. There is only the warning about, "hidden reefs in your love feasts," and the like, and the lesson is one always has to be carefull I guess as far as I can see.

I think we've got it down at this point to a discussion over what I might or might not mean by "unrepentant". All I can say is I can imagine a cicumstance where someone just continues on and on causing strife by continually arguing that they are gay and it's not a sin even though they are not an official teacher, in which case action might need to be taken according to what the various scriptures on church order say.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, it's just that the Bible doesn't give us any way to deal with someone's sin that we don't know anything about. There is only the warning about, "hidden reefs in your love feasts," and the like, and the lesson is one always has to be carefull I guess as far as I can see.

I think we've got it down at this point to a discussion over what I might or might not mean by "unrepentant". All I can say is I can imagine a cicumstance where someone just continues on and on causing strife by continually arguing that they are gay and it's not a sin even though they are not an official teacher, in which case action might need to be taken according to what the various scriptures on church order say.

Though your arguements give us something to think about, your first sentence gives us something to think about as well.

"Well, it's just that the Bible doesn't give us any way to deal with someone's sin that we don't know anything about."

Are we called to deal with anyone's sin other than our own?

 

[Shane Roach]

the opposite is true as well, how can the person struggling with homosexuality in the church (body of believers), know that what they are being told to believe is right according to God rather than just a teaching of the church? There are so many fractions of christian belief, (evidenced by denominations) and so many so called interpretations, that it would be very difficult for someone to know what is from God and what is not. How would a homosexual know that you were not one of the false teachers he has been warned about, telling him that homosexuality is a sin rather than a messanger of God proclaiming truth? Anything can be justified through scirpture, we see it all the time, so how can the person who desires to believe one thing, know what is of God and what is of the church?

Well, that is what I have been posting about for several days now. There are some issues that are cloudy, like free will vs assurance of salvation and so forth. But I am at a loss to see how anyone sees this homosexual relationships being sinless as anything but a heresy, and there is a verse that discusses that arguments and strifes that revolve continually around defining and redefining words, or 'endless geneologies' at one point another says, that this is wrong and to . Ultimately we have to rely on the Holy Spirit not just to lead us as individuals, but also trust the Holy Spirit to lead us to the right church as well. For instance, there are some pretty subtle clues that led me not to include Mormonsim in my list of Christian philosophies to trust, even though generally they are quite morally conservative.

1 Timothy 6:3+ goes into it very well, and I will point out that over and over I hear one of the arguments that goes with the homosexual sinlessness argument is one of inclusion for the sake of inclusion without regard to the concept that simply enlarging churches does not make them better churches. I see a strong political undercurrent to this teaching and all that that implies as it relates to 1 Timothy 6. People need at some point to realize that there really is, even as you pointed out earlier, almost nothing that cannot be either legitimized or delegitimized if one wants to contort the Bible's words enough. You just have to be smarter than the page you're reading from at some point, and realize that some arguments have no one verse in the Bible to clear them up, but that there is ample evidence of this or that being the way.

The thing that makes this so much more a difficulty than say, free will vs predestiny or something, is that the Bible never declares a mistake of that nature to be troublesome, whereas over and over in the NT we see that sexual sins are still seen as highly indicative of whether or not someone is truly walking with the Spirit.

 

[Shane Roach]

the opposite is true as well, how can the person struggling with homosexuality in the church (body of believers), know that what they are being told to believe is right according to God rather than just a teaching of the church? There are so many fractions of christian belief, (evidenced by denominations) and so many so called interpretations, that it would be very difficult for someone to know what is from God and what is not. How would a homosexual know that you were not one of the false teachers he has been warned about, telling him that homosexuality is a sin rather than a messanger of God proclaiming truth? Anything can be justified through scirpture, we see it all the time, so how can the person who desires to believe one thing, know what is of God and what is of the church?

Oh perfect, I just lost a 4 paragraph response.

Anything can be justified through the scripture? I think not. I think this is exactly what the discussion is all about. A lot of things have been argued from the scripture, but each time, eventually, the heresy is found out. 1 Timothy 6:3+ has something to say about precisely the sort of argument that tends towards a heretical teaching, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Biblical arguments about homosexuality not being a sin revolve exclusively around redefining a handfull of words and phrases.

Hmm, well apparently that post wasn't lost, but I will leave this one as well as I think it makes my point much more cleanly.

 

[Shane Roach]

Though your arguements give us something to think about, your first sentence gives us something to think about as well.

"Well, it's just that the Bible doesn't give us any way to deal with someone's sin that we don't know anything about."

Are we called to deal with anyone's sin other than our own?

Apparently, yes we are. I quoted you the verses. I don't get where this question comes from. It's not like I am making this up out of the thin air. You tell me what to make of those verses if you insist there is no room for church discipline in these matters. I have no idea where you are coming from at this point.

 

[Shane Roach]

To make it as simple as I can, if there is no place for church discipline, you could theoretically have a church which teaches absolutely nothing of the Bible calling itself Christian and having no theological basis to refute it. Ultimately, the method for maintaining church discipline appears to be as we had already outlined up until you decided to bring again the idea that someone can sin and sin and claim it's not sin and still be a member in completely good standing.

 

[BobKat]

You love to hear yourselves talk/think. That HAS to be a sin. One thing I know. I am not as well versed in biblical teachings, but I am not nearly as heartless as the two of you. Go ahead and reason your christian selves into oblivion.

 

[Shane Roach]

You love to hear yourselves talk/think. That HAS to be a sin. One thing I know. I am not as well versed in biblical teachings, but I am not nearly as heartless as the two of you. Go ahead and reason your christian selves into oblivion.

I'm not sure I understand your attitude. Unless I am completely misguessing, she's defending openly practicing homosexuals staying in the church. She's with you on every point except that she still think's it's a sin, and yet you accuse her of sin? For defending you?

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, that is what I have been posting about for several days now. There are some issues that are cloudy, like free will vs assurance of salvation and so forth. But I am at a loss to see how anyone sees this homosexual relationships being sinless as anything but a heresy, and there is a verse that discusses that arguments and strifes that revolve continually around defining and redefining words, or 'endless geneologies' at one point another says, that this is wrong and to . Ultimately we have to rely on the Holy Spirit not just to lead us as individuals, but also trust the Holy Spirit to lead us to the right church as well. For instance, there are some pretty subtle clues that led me not to include Mormonsim in my list of Christian philosophies to trust, even though generally they are quite morally conservative.

1 Timothy 6:3+ goes into it very well, and I will point out that over and over I hear one of the arguments that goes with the homosexual sinlessness argument is one of inclusion for the sake of inclusion without regard to the concept that simply enlarging churches does not make them better churches. I see a strong political undercurrent to this teaching and all that that implies as it relates to 1 Timothy 6. People need at some point to realize that there really is, even as you pointed out earlier, almost nothing that cannot be either legitimized or delegitimized if one wants to contort the Bible's words enough. You just have to be smarter than the page you're reading from at some point, and realize that some arguments have no one verse in the Bible to clear them up, but that there is ample evidence of this or that being the way.

The thing that makes this so much more a difficulty than say, free will vs predestiny or something, is that the Bible never declares a mistake of that nature to be troublesome, whereas over and over in the NT we see that sexual sins are still seen as highly indicative of whether or not someone is truly walking with the Spirit.

The problem I am having with your theory is not one of theory but practise. Let us look at it this way, in my own life and in the lives of practically (if not every) christian I have ever had pleasure to talk with about the issue, we all at times argue with God about one thing or another because we simply don't want to relenquish control of that area of our lives over to the control of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes those things are little, sometimes big, somethings are sinful, some are just areas we want to keep for ourselves. Humans are too complicated and complexed to simply say, I believe and that is all there is to the christian walk. Even God says that it is a daily thing. I could face the day thinking that I have addressed every issue in my life only to find that tomorrow, God reveals something to me that I never knew was there before. This could be in the area of a teaching in scripture, a hidden part of my life, or something new altogether that did not exist before that day. The bottom line is that my command in scripture is not to please man or the church but to please, honor, and glorify God. If for whatever reason, the Holy Spirit has not yet choosen to convict me of a sin in my life, is that not the business of the Holy Spirit? If I am to glorify God and I am willing for my life to be a testimony to His power and Love, then why not allow Him to convict and transform rather than for the church to try to do this. It has been my experience (by the way, this is something I am still battling with in my life) that few of us have any idea of the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives and even less trust that He is the all power God that we claim to worship. I have enough temptations and sins of my own, I do not need to add someone elses to the mix. If we want to talk about the teacher, or the person in authority in our churches, then there is a different subject, but for this to apply to the average person, I have a real problem and see many problems when looking at the totality of scripture.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh perfect, I just lost a 4 paragraph response.

Anything can be justified through the scripture? I think not. I think this is exactly what the discussion is all about. A lot of things have been argued from the scripture, but each time, eventually, the heresy is found out. 1 Timothy 6:3+ has something to say about precisely the sort of argument that tends towards a heretical teaching, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Biblical arguments about homosexuality not being a sin revolve exclusively around redefining a handfull of words and phrases.

Hmm, well apparently that post wasn't lost, but I will leave this one as well as I think it makes my point much more cleanly.

My argument is not one of homosexual acts not being sin, or that we should not teach the bible on the matter, my arguement is how is the homosexual who is torn between the old man and the new man, to know what is truth except by the power of the Holy Spirit and if the church jumps in too quickly, then we are claiming to know more than the Holy Spirit which is one of the biggest sins when you look at the scirptures from a heirarchial standpoint.

 

[razzelflabben]

You love to hear yourselves talk/think. That HAS to be a sin. One thing I know. I am not as well versed in biblical teachings, but I am not nearly as heartless as the two of you. Go ahead and reason your christian selves into oblivion.

I was not aware that this dicussion was so offensive to people here. I do apologize if you have found my posts to be offensive. This discussion has prompted thought and ideas within me that I must examine for myself as well as ask others to do the same. I never realized until coming to this thread how many people are offended by things that I find common place, like challenging myself to a closer walk with the Lord. Or reexamining teachings that I hold to be truth. I don't always change my mind, but I am always challenged to know God in a more intimate relationship. I have said many times on the forum that I speak to myself as much as I do to those who read my posts and yet often, people feel that I am posting only to them, I am not sure how to overcome this but I shall try, and trying is the best I know how to do. So if I have offended you (anyone on this thread) please accept my apology. And now, so as to avoid any further heartacke, I will show my awesome powers and vanish into thin air.

 

[Shane Roach]

My argument is not one of homosexual acts not being sin, or that we should not teach the bible on the matter, my arguement is how is the homosexual who is torn between the old man and the new man, to know what is truth except by the power of the Holy Spirit and if the church jumps in too quickly, then we are claiming to know more than the Holy Spirit which is one of the biggest sins when you look at the scirptures from a heirarchial standpoint.

Well, I've asked two or three times now for you to explain how you come to that conclusion that following the scriptures regarding keeping order and discipline in the church in any way is being judgemental or supplanting the work of the Spirit. As far as I can see, these instructions have all the weight that the instructions you're talking about have, and represent the balance that has to be struck between tolerance and giving the entire church wholeheartedly over to those whom the scripture clearly shows are coming to work against it.

When I was young, the popular heresies were that there's no hell and the soft peddling of sin. People say things like, "I just don't believe a loving God could send anyone to hell." Well, that just assumes that sin isn't as important as it turns out to be. Coupled with, "Well, sex isn't that big a deal. God undestands we're only human," since I had not early in my conversion read the Bible, I took people at their word, and was eventually caught up in that sin. The Spirit led me to be sure, convicting me from time to time, but only until I read the Bible cover to cover and saw what the real teachings were, how they fitted together and why, did I really come to an understanding that changed my underlying attitude about the whole situation.

You ask how we are to know what are the correct and incorrect teachings. This is how, this very process, of looking a the argument and being able to discern good from evil because of having ones senses trained to it. It's the only way we are given, and it's integral to walking with God. Being able to recognize who is and isn't trustworthy is important, and the basics of how to judge that are the subject of the scriptures I have been trying to show you.

As for leaving the forum because of people taking offense, the only problem I have with you is frustration that I keep asking this question and you keep dodging it, and now appear as if you will not ever answer it at all. And, anyone who comes here and personally attacks someone like yourself, who obviously goes miles out of their way at least trying not to be offensive, such that they're going to accuse you of sin just for voicing your opinion, needs to take a few deep breaths of their own. But, I wish you well if you're going to insist on retiring.

 

[Outspoken]

This is a very good example of what is wrong with your set of priorities. Christ was not around to excommunicate anyone from the Christian church.

Could that be because the Church didn't exist until after his assention Great reply. I have been keeping up and I think Shane is doing a great job.

 

[Fideist]

Could that be because the Church didn't exist until after his assention Great reply. I have been keeping up and I think Shane is doing a great job.

Thje church did not exist until after Paul became involved. Up until then Jesus and his followers were sectarian Jews. Jesus never excommunicated anyone from his group.

 

[chalice_thunder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Shane Roach

This is a very good example of what is wrong with your set of priorities. Christ was not around to excommunicate anyone from the Christian church.

Well, first off, Jesus NEVER set an example of exclusion, but of inclusion. Therefore he would never excommunicate anyone, for any reason. I mean, he ate his last meal WITH his betrayer.

Second - and back to the original post: I am trying to say this with all the charity in my heart I can muster...so please EVERYONE listen with your hearts. There are many of us on this board who spend our lives striving to live a godly life, who love Jesus with a deep and everlasting love, who also are gay. YES, you can indeed be Christian and Gay...that's all there is to it. It can't be up for argument, because it just IS.

 

[Shane Roach]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Shane Roach

This is a very good example of what is wrong with your set of priorities. Christ was not around to excommunicate anyone from the Christian church.

Well, first off, Jesus NEVER set an example of exclusion, but of inclusion. Therefore he would never excommunicate anyone, for any reason. I mean, he ate his last meal WITH his betrayer.

Second - and back to the original post: I am trying to say this with all the charity in my heart I can muster...so please EVERYONE listen with your hearts. There are many of us on this board who spend our lives striving to live a godly life, who love Jesus with a deep and everlasting love, who also are gay. YES, you can indeed be Christian and Gay...that's all there is to it. It can't be up for argument, because it just IS.

Matthew 7:21-23.

No, I am not saying the verse applies to you. I am saying this is a clear indication that anyone who simply declares they are Christian and therefore no one has any business looking at their behavior to tell how seriously they take their faith is wrong. Also, it is a clear indication that Jesus does believe in seperating the believer from the non-believer.

And since Jesus affirmed the Old Testament, and the Old Testament affirmed seperating people from the congregation, your repeated attempt to limit all discussion of anything regarding this to just the four Gospels fails. It is not for you to decide that all the rest of the Bible is unreliable on a whim. Indeed, indicating that the Bible as a whole is not a reliable source for learning about Jesus goes against everything He ever taught.

Also, quit accusing others of foul motives and you will find that the types of posts you find hard to deal with will cease as well. All the heat being generated here comes from repeated attacks by you and others against anyone who disagrees with you that they are somehow acting in an un-Christian manner. So, if you don't want to discuss what is and is not a Christian manner, then quit hurling that accusation and stick to the discussion of how you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

 

[mpshiel]

Wow Shane, you are like the energizer bunny! I come back after a few days and you are still at it.

Okay, I think I tried verse (Which you said wasn't about what I thought they were about), I tried the presence of the holy spirit (which you didn't actually respond to) so I will have to tell you the real reason I know how I can be Christian in an commited lesbian relationship.

I was on the way to Cinncinatti on my donkey...I mean my Chevy, when a great light came down and I pulled over as I was temporarily blinded. Then a voice spoke to me saying, "You are my daughter, in whom I am well pleased...and give my regards to your partner (if you wish to hear more stories of being "touched" check them out in the women's forum)."

I can't convince you that there are Christian gays, you really have to convince yourself. Like keeping communion or the passover, full water babtism or partial, it comes down to what you personally believe.

 

[Shane Roach]

Wow Shane, you are like the energizer bunny! I come back after a few days and you are still at it.

Okay, I think I tried verse (Which you said wasn't about what I thought they were about), I tried the presence of the holy spirit (which you didn't actually respond to) so I will have to tell you the real reason I know how I can be Christian in an commited lesbian relationship.

I was on the way to Cinncinatti on my donkey...I mean my Chevy, when a great light came down and I pulled over as I was temporarily blinded. Then a voice spoke to me saying, "You are my daughter, in whom I am well pleased...and give my regards to your partner (if you wish to hear more stories of being "touched" check them out in the women's forum)."

I can't convince you that there are Christian gays, you really have to convince yourself. Like keeping communion or the passover, full water babtism or partial, it comes down to what you personally believe.

I don't recall your exact arguments. If you had some sort of explanation for why I was somehow misunderstanding your intentions, fine. If you're just bowing out, fine. But you're statement that it is all up to me is false. I have changed my mind about things in the past, and I will again I am sure in the future. it just takes more than mocking or unsupported statements to change it.

 

[chalice_thunder]

Matthew 7:21-23.

No, I am not saying the verse applies to you. I am saying this is a clear indication that anyone who simply declares they are Christian and therefore no one has any business looking at their behavior to tell how seriously they take their faith is wrong. Also, it is a clear indication that Jesus does believe in seperating the believer from the non-believer.

And since Jesus affirmed the Old Testament, and the Old Testament affirmed seperating people from the congregation, your repeated attempt to limit all discussion of anything regarding this to just the four Gospels fails. It is not for you to decide that all the rest of the Bible is unreliable on a whim. Indeed, indicating that the Bible as a whole is not a reliable source for learning about Jesus goes against everything He ever taught.

Also, quit accusing others of foul motives and you will find that the types of posts you find hard to deal with will cease as well. All the heat being generated here comes from repeated attacks by you and others against anyone who disagrees with you that they are somehow acting in an un-Christian manner. So, if you don't want to discuss what is and is not a Christian manner, then quit hurling that accusation and stick to the discussion of how you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sin.

I didn't "simply declare" anything. The life I lead speaks for itself. Since you are the one who is proposing the Gays can't be Christian - it is up to YOU to support your misguided argument. So come to my church and meet me and inspect my life and see whether or not I am what I say I am.

I also NEVER accused anyone of foul motives - I made no attacks. (Or if I did, I surely did not intend that.) I simply answered your attacks.