Is there salvation without Mary?

[The Liturgist]

We have to be careful not to apply 21st century style 'mathematical' thinking to this situation.

Why?

Seriously, why?

The events in question did not transpire in the 21st century. And what relevance is the corrupt and depraved thinking of the modern world to things divine? If anything, with regards to the Christian faith, we should be careful to avoid, on absolute terms, models of thought inconsistent with those of our Lord and the Holy Apostles, Prophets, Patriarchs and Early Church Fathers.

Yes, Jesus is called 'god' (the Greek didn't use capital letters);

The Greek also did not use lower case letters, but as soon as capitalization became available, every New Testament in every language capitalized God. Indeed, rejection of a belief in the perfect humanity of Christ (Gnosticism and Docetism - starting in the 1st and 2nd century) is an older heresy (by two centuries) than rejection of a belief in His absolute deity of our Lord and His consubstantiality with the Father (Paul of Samosata and Arius - late 3rd and early 4th century) and what is more, that the Apostolic Church had first to defend the humanity of Christ is proof that His deity is uncontroversial in antiquity.

but mostly described/addressed as 'son of God' / 'Christ' - 'Messiah'.

This disturbs me. In your zeal to avoid the veneration due to the woman who gave birth to God incarnate, you appear to be seeking to de-emphasize or even diminish the doctrine of the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose Godhood and consubstantiality with the Father is part of the Nicene Creed.

Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ is not God to the same extent as the Father? Because that is frankly what it looks like when you use an argument like that.

There are a number of arguments from Nestorianism you could have invoked which do not threaten the doctrine of the deity of our Lord, but you, rather than citing those established Christological arguments, which like their Ephesian-Chalcedonian counterparts, have instead given the impression that you are questioning the deity of Christ.

The term 'mother of God/god' is not found in the Biblical texts. Neither do we find texts with an angle like 'God/god died on the cross'.

Firstly, that line of argument is irrelevant to the question of whether or not a doctrine is valid.

Secondly, Why do you keep typing God in reference to our Lord with a lower case “g”? As I said earlier, if you wanted to be purely faithful to the Koine Greek text, or the Syriac text of the Peshitta, or the Latin of the Vulgate, GOD would be more accurate than god, since diminutive characters did not appear until much later.

Just sticking to the terms we find the the Biblical texts helps us avoiding headaches.

You know, as an interesting and amusing fact, the Arians used exactly the same argument about homoousios (“of one nature”). At any rate, your argument is flawed, because Christian theology, whether Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox, or Assyrian, makes use of massive amounts of terminology which is extra-Biblical, ranging from shared terminology like the Trinity, to more specific terms like Magisterium, Dispensation or Hesychasm. And this is fine, because the Sacred Scriptures are a collection of divinely inspired books that record and prophesize the Incarnation of God, and His creation of mankind in Genesis and His recreation of mankind and final victory over Death on the Cross; they are not a dictionary of theological terminology.

Mary is the mother of the Son of God, the mother of our Messiah;

If Mary is the Mother of the Son of God and the Mother of our Messiah, she is the Mother of God, because Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity, and as the Nicene Creed confesses, true God of true God, consubstantial with the Father, begotten of the Father before all ages.

and indeed blessed among the women (Luke 1:42),

The reason why she is blessed among women is that she enjoyed a more intimate relationship, that of motherhood, to Christ our God, than any other human being.

but not an intercessor.

Whether or not one believes in the doctrine of intercessory prayer or not has no bearing at all on the doctrine of the Incarnation and whether or not one accepts or rejects Nestorianism (the doctrinal error that states that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of Christ but not the Mother of God).

 

[Sparta]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

If Mary died on the Cross then give her credit for : John 3:16

 

[MariaChristi]

If Mary died on the Cross then give her credit for : John 3:16

 

[bbbbbbb]

If Mary died on the Cross then give her credit for : John 3:16

As you may know, there are some Catholics who consider Mary to be co-redemptrix, on an equal level with Jesus Christ in redeeming mankind.

 

[Albion]

As you may know, there are some Catholics who consider Mary to be co-redemptrix, on an equal level with Jesus Christ in redeeming mankind.

Over a million of them, as a matter of fact, including both laity and clergy, who petitioned the Vatican to make Mary as co-redemptrix be an infallible dogma of their church.

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear Sparta,

It was sad to read the words you posted, for the truth is: Mary is not God, however she was created by God because of His beautiful love for her and for all of us. He willed to create Mary Immaculate from the first moment of her conception in her mother's womb, because He loved us So Much He willed to send His Only Begotten Son into Mary's Womb by the Power of the Holy Spirit - when Mary freely gave her "Yes" to become the Mother of Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God.

Mary did not physically die with Jesus on the Cross but her Immaculate Heart was pierced spiritually as she stood beneath His Cross, with Supernatural Faith, Hope and above all Charity, humbly believing when so many doubted He would rise from the dead. Mary is not God she is however Mother of the Incarnate Word of God our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus gave her to His Apostle John from His Cross and to all of us as our Spiritual Mother., saying: "Behold your Mother" Jesus knew we needed a human Model as well as His perfect Life as the God Man sent to save us. God wanted Mary to care for His Body the Church as she cared for Him.

Mary is Mother and Model for the Church, His Body. Catholics are often accused of "worshiping" Mary which is not really true. We honor her in a special way for she is unique and her life was and is one we treasure. She listened and did the Truth she heard from Jesus, and pondered all in her heart. She is worthy of honor -- and God continues to love and honor Mary in a unique way. No other human person has been given the honor of becoming the Mother of Jesus, His incarnate Word, as Mother of Jesus and Mother of His Church. Yes, Mary is loved by God for her willingness to say "Yes" with her words: "Be it done to me according to Your Word". We ought to Love her and Honor her. God loves and honors Mary for her part in salvation -- by God's power she brought forth Jesus into this world to save us.

Mary seeks no "credit". She remains the Humble Handmaid of the Lord, exalted by God as Mother of Jesus, His Incarnate Son. Hopefully by God's Grace, you and others will listen prayerfully to God's Words in the Gospels to hear the Truth of God's Words in regard to Mary, as well as other references in Old and New Testament Scripture passages.

 

[Sparta]

As you may know, there are some Catholics who consider Mary to be co-redemptrix, on an equal level with Jesus Christ in redeeming mankind.

''''''
To begin, we can say without doubt that the title "Mediatrix" is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary.

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.


This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us.""""""""

 

[Albion]

Dear Sparta,

It was sad to read the words you posted, for the truth is: Mary is not God, however she was created by God because of His beautiful love for her and for all of us.

It's not necessary to go on at length extolling the virtues of Mary. We all know that she was a special person and chosen out of all humans to be the mother of Jesus. There is no way to minimize the wondrous and unique nature of that development, even if someone set out to do so.

Also, she is not God. You don't think she is. We don't think she is.

The question, however, is whether or not she should be approached in prayer AS IF she actually IS God.

 

[Sparta]

Mary seeks no "credit". She remains the Humble Handmaid of the Lord, exalted by God as Mother of Jesus, His Incarnate Son. Hopefully by God's Grace, you and others will listen prayerfully to God's Words in the Gospels to hear the Truth of God's Words in regard to Mary, as well as other references in Old and New Testament Scripture passages.

As the NT teaches.....Mary is blessed among women, but not blessed above them.

Mary was a sinner, saved by the blood of her Son.
She had other children, and eventually died.

 

[Valletta]

As you may know, there are some Catholics who consider Mary to be co-redemptrix, on an equal level with Jesus Christ in redeeming mankind.

Co-redemptrix, co- anything, is not the same as putting someone on the same level, but there have been billions of Catholics and neither you nor I can speak for them all. Upon reflection it does show the wisdom of Jesus in having one pope upon which he would build His Church and being able to make a clear teaching when the need should arise. What we all should understand is that Jesus made Mary the mother of His Church, and she constantly petitions on our behalf, just like she asked at the wedding at Cana. She will always lead you to Jesus. "No Mary, no Jesus. Know Mary, know Jesus."

 

[Valletta]

As the NT teaches.....Mary is blessed among women, but not blessed above them.

Mary was a sinner, saved by the blood of her Son.
She had other children, and eventually died.

Mary had no other children, that is a falsehood. Both Mary and Eve came into this world sinless, but Eve sinned and Mary did not. Study the Word of God.

 

[Albion]

Co-redemptrix, co- anything, is not the same as putting someone on the same level

But only God can redeem. Only He can be the redeemer. So if anyone else is deemed to be a co-redemptrix or co-redeemer, it certainly is to put that person one the same level with God.

 

[Sparta]

Mary had no other children, that is a falsehood. Both Mary and Eve came into this world sinless, but Eve sinned and Mary did not. Study the Word of God.

The NT says "all have sinned'. Romans 3
So, to resist that verse, and deny it on behalf of a church that also denies it, is not a good idea.

"all have sinned"......including Mary.

Mary had other Children.
Many verses confirm this reality.
For example....Paul in Galatians 1 says....> Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother".

 

[bbbbbbb]

The NT says "all have sinned'. Romans 3
So, to resist that verse, and deny it on behalf of a church that also denies it, is not a good idea.

"all have sinned"......including Mary.

Mary had other Children.
Many verses confirm this reality.
For example....Paul in Galatians 1 says....> Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother".

You have put your finger on the niggling problem of the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Not only is James particularly mentioned, but the gospels themselves clearly state that Jesus had brothers and sisters, even going so far as to name the brothers.

The question, then, is where these folks originated. We all agree that they just didn't pop on the scene miraculously. They were born just like all of us. If they were born, who was their mother? Common sense will tell you that the mother of your brothers and sisters is also your own mother. Actually, that is a legal reality. If, however, they were children begotten by your father, but not by your mother, then they are half-brothers and half-sisters, not brothers and sisters. Likewise, if they were adopted by your parents, they are step-brothers and step-sisters, not your brothers and sisters. If they were begotten by your aunt and uncle, they are your cousins, not your brothers or your sisters.

The RCC has attempted to explain away the physical brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ in the following manner:

1. They were actually cousins and not brothers and sisters. This is absurd, given the fact that in no place is the Greek word for cousin used in relation to these individuals.
2. They were step-brothers and step-sisters because Mary and Joseph had adopted them. This is quite unlikely, again because such a relationship could have been explained by the various writers of the New Testament, but was not.
3. They were half-brothera and half-sisters of Jesus Christ because Joseph was really elderly when he married Mary, having been previously married and having had children by his former wife. This is also extremely unlikely and assuredly atypical.
4. They were spiritual brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, just as all Christians are spiritual brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. If that is the case, then Mary is merely the spiritual mother of Jesus Christ, as well, because the gospels spell out the names of His brothers and His sisters as well as His mother, Mary.

Strangely, because the RCC views sexual intercourse in any form as sinful and defiling, they have determined that Joseph and Mary were merely happy roommates raising their only Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But only God can redeem. Only He can be the redeemer. So if anyone else is deemed to be a co-redemptrix or co-redeemer, it certainly is to put that person one the same level with God.

Precisely. If one is at a lower level, one is not called a co-worker, but a subordinate of some form. For example, the United States government has one President and one Vice-President. There is no Co-President and the roles are clearly defined.

 

[Lukaris]

There is a 2nd century writing called the Protevangalion of James which attests to the ever Virgin Mary & the Lord’s “siblings” from an earlier marriage of the widower Joseph. It is generally considered a valid recount of holy tradition but not scripture because it is not directly written by one of the Apostles.


Infancy Gospel of James

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a 2nd century writing called the Protevangalion of James which attests to the ever Virgin Mary & the Lord’s “siblings” from an earlier marriage of the widower Joseph. It is generally considered a valid recount of holy tradition but not scripture because it is not directly written by one of the Apostles.


Infancy Gospel of James

Do you really want to go into the Protoevangelion of James? There is some really interesting stuff in it, much of which is silly and some of which is heretical.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As you may know, there are some Catholics who consider Mary to be co-redemptrix, on an equal level with Jesus Christ in redeeming mankind.

That's not what "Co-Redemptrix" means.

There may be good and valid concern and criticism over this particular Marian idea; but it would be deeply erroneous to charge that Mary is on equal level with Christ. Catholics, like all other Christians, affirm the preeminence and supremacy of Jesus Christ as God and Lord, Savior of the world.

A Catholic who said Mary was equal with Christ would be a heretic in the eyes of Roman Catholicism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The NT says "all have sinned'. Romans 3
So, to resist that verse, and deny it on behalf of a church that also denies it, is not a good idea.

"all have sinned"......including Mary.

Mary had other Children.
Many verses confirm this reality.
For example....Paul in Galatians 1 says....> Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother".

Scripture attests to Christ having siblings.
It does not say that Mary had other children.

That these are the children of Mary is an assumption placed over the text, not something the text itself says.

Scripture is entirely silent on the matter of whether Jesus' siblings were half-siblings born to Mary and Joseph, or if they were children of Joseph from a previous marriage, or even if they were cousins (the Greek word can indicate close kin rather than explicit sibling relationships).

As such, using Scripture alone, there simply isn't a way to make this determination.

I come from the school of thought that the sex life (or lack thereof) of the mother of God isn't my business.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Valletta]

The NT says "all have sinned'. Romans 3
So, to resist that verse, and deny it on behalf of a church that also denies it, is not a good idea.

"all have sinned"......including Mary.

Mary had other Children.
Many verses confirm this reality.
For example....Paul in Galatians 1 says....> Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother".

Jesus never sinned. Neither did severely handicapped people. Nor little babies. Yours is a misinterpetation.
Yes, my brother. Mary had no other children, another misinterpretation.
Realize the Bible was not originally written in English, study the meanings of the words. If you don't want to go to the trouble find at least similar statements in the Bible and see if those statements all mesh with your interpretation.