Is there salvation without Mary?

[Not David]

Swell, but the discussion was about the official standards of Anglicanism and the Articles of Religion in particular.

I really don't care what the imitation Catholics say or do since they are all in favor of whatever Rome says and does except that they won't actually follow through and convert to Roman Catholicism since that would mean they'd have to start obeying ecclesiastical authority for a change.

I have been curious all these years to know what kind of Anglican are you Albion

 

[Albion]

I have been curious all these years to know what kind of Anglican are you Albion

I'm basically a standard, middle-of-the road, prayerbook Anglican. Nothing special at all.

 

[bbbbbbb]

First, as I told you in this very thread in message 525, "Wikipedia is quite biased, people band together to preserve misinformation." The information there can change minute by minute. You claimed that Saint Jerome 1) "rejected" the deutercanonical books" and 2) was later "pressured" to translate those books.
The Wikipedia excerpts you provided do NOT use the words "rejected" or "pressured." The article claims Jerome was suspicious of the Apocrypha (an anti-Catholic term) and later viewed them as Scripture. The excerpts say NOTHING about Jerome being pressured.

[/QUOTE]

Dear friend, you have the same opportunity as everybody else in this world who has internet access to Wikipedia to correct the errors you find there. I have done it myself as well as entered new articles. It is not rocket science. All you need is the "correct" information backed up with two objective sources for it which can be verified independently.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Anglicans and Lutherans do not consider the Apocrypha to be Scripture (meaning inspired writings). That is the official position of those churches. Of course there's no telling what individual members believe about them, just as we could say about individual Catholics and Orthodox Christians, etc.

These churches do consider them to be worth reading but not as revelation or as a basis for any doctrine.

Curiously, I cannot think of any doctrine of the RCC or the EOC that is based only in the deutercanonical books, other than the doctrine that they are divinely inspired. Perhaps our RCC and EOC friends will kindly enlighten me to the doctrines that solely originate in the deutercanonical books.

 

[Valletta]

Dear friend, you have the same opportunity as everybody else in this world who has internet access to Wikipedia to correct the errors you find there. I have done it myself as well as entered new articles. It is not rocket science. All you need is the "correct" information backed up with two objective sources for it which can be verified independently.

As I said, the excerpts you provided do NOT use the words "rejected" or "pressured." You have failed to produce any source to back those words up. The article you did provide claims Jerome was suspicious of the Apocrypha (an anti-Catholic term) and later viewed them as Scripture. The excerpts say NOTHING about Jerome being pressured. I'm not a game player, please stop posting false information about Catholics. Treat others from other religions as you would hope they treat you. Next time, before you post please, consider asking a Catholic.

 

[Valletta]

Curiously, I cannot think of any doctrine of the RCC or the EOC that is based only in the deutercanonical books, other than the doctrine that they are divinely inspired. Perhaps our RCC and EOC friends will kindly enlighten me to the doctrines that solely originate in the deutercanonical books.

The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. The Catholic Church existed before one word of the NT was written, any text that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. All 73 books complied with and still comply with Catholic teaching.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. The Catholic Church existed before one word of the NT was written, any text that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. All 73 books complied with and still comply with Catholic teaching.

Please tell us what particular doctrine(s) originate solely in any of the deutercanonical books?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Dear friend, you have the same opportunity as everybody else in this world who has internet access to Wikipedia to correct the errors you find there. I have done it myself as well as entered new articles. It is not rocket science. All you need is the "correct" information backed up with two objective sources for it which can be verified independently.

Your post has not been backed up by Wikipedia or any other source.


Dear friend, you have the same opportunity as everybody else in this world who has internet access to Wikipedia to correct the errors you find there. I have done it myself as well as entered new articles. It is not rocket science. All you need is the "correct" information backed up with two objective sources for it which can be verified independently.[/QUOTE]
As I said, the excerpts you provided do NOT use the words "rejected" or "pressured." You have failed to produce any source to back those words up. The article you did provide claims Jerome was suspicious of the Apocrypha (an anti-Catholic term) and later viewed them as Scripture. The excerpts say NOTHING about Jerome being pressured. I'm not a game player, please stop posting false information about Catholics. Treat others from other religions as you would hope they treat you. Next time, before you post please, consider asking a Catholic.[/QUOTE]

You wrote, "First, as I told you in this very thread in message 525, "Wikipedia is quite biased, people band together to preserve misinformation.""

You reject Wikipedia. I knew that. That's fine. I reject other sources of information for other reasons.

Please provide an objective source showing that Jerome used the Septuagint as his original text for the translation of the Old Testament. That is the issue at hand. If he had used the Septuagint he would have naturally translated the deutercanonical books, which are included in the Septuagint. Instead, I am convinced that he used the Hebrew text, of which none include these books. He had a natural scholarly aversion to the use of a secondary text for his translation.

 

[Valletta]

You reject Wikipedia. I knew that. That's fine. I reject other sources of information for other reasons.

The excerpts you provided from Wikipedia do NOT use your words "rejected" or "pressured." You have failed to produce any source to back those words up. Being suspicious and accepting is hardly the same as rejecting and being pressured. I don't know whether you altered the words from Wikipedia or took them from some site you don't want to reveal. In any case, next time please take the time to ask a Catholic before you post such information about Catholics or the Catholic Church.

 

[prodromos]

Please provide an objective source showing that Jerome used the Septuagint as his original text for the translation of the Old Testament.

Why would we do that seeing as no one has claimed he did?

 

[robycop3]

Those are lunar calendars, not solar calendars.



Nonsense! There is no archaeological or historical evidence of such a thing. That’s what makes the incident under St. Hezekiah a holy miracle.

You don't know history very well. The whole world that could write recorded the incident of the sun's reversal in one manner or another. The Chinese recorded it as a long night when the stars wandered. The Pawnee Indians have a legend about a hare setting a trap to catch the sun as he rose, but the sun saw the trap & retreated, only rising when the hare gave up & took down his trap. The Greek legend of Phaeton, who couldn't control the chariot & horses that pulled the sun, letting them run wild, is also based on this. The Egyptians buried several sundial clocks, saying they were no longer accurate. So, the event was not limited to Hez & crew.

 

[robycop3]

Why do you keep referring to Joseph, the guardian of our Lord in His infancy and childhood, as “Joe”? It’s not scriptural, it is not his name, and it is anachronistic. I mean, we don’t call the Apostle Peter “Pete” or the Apostle Matthew “Matt” or the Apostle Thomas “Tom”, or James the Just “Jim” or “Jake.”

Why not? The Jews called many men named Judah "Jude". Nicknames, shortcuts, acronyms, & handles are not limited to English or modern times.

 

[robycop3]

Not according to John Wycliffe, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Wesley or Thomas Cranmer. Nor according to Athanasius, who actually gave us the New Testament as we know it today, or Gregory of Nyssa, or Ambrose of Milan, or Augustine of Hippo, or Cyril of Alexandria, or indeed, of any Early Church Father.

In retrospect Athanasius should probably have included the Protoevangelion of James with the Shepherd of Hermas among books which could be read non-liturgically, in an extra-ecclesial setting, for catechesis and edification.

I have eleven English bible versions in front of me Their evidence is what matters, not that of some men of the past. And there's not one quark of Scripture in any of them that says Mary was a perpetual virgin. But there's plenty of it indicating Jesus had at least 6 half-siblings, with no mention of their having another mom besides Mary.

 

[robycop3]

Gabriel didn't give a specific time frame in which she would conceive, just that in the near future she would. A young woman, betrothed to be married, intending on having children with her future husband, would not ask such a question.

Why not?

 

[The Liturgist]

Please provide an objective source showing that Jerome used the Septuagint as his original text for the translation of the Old Testament. That is the issue at hand. If he had used the Septuagint he would have naturally translated the deutercanonical books, which are included in the Septuagint. Instead, I am convinced that he used the Hebrew text, of which none include these books. He had a natural scholarly aversion to the use of a secondary text for his translation.

As @prodromos said, we did not claim that - he used a Hebrew and Aramaic source which is no longer extant, with one exception, that being the Psalter, which he did translate from the Septuagint as the Roman Church, like the Orthodox Church, was dependent on Septuagint versification for their use of the Psalter. So consequently, if you compare the Challoner Douai Rheims Psalter with a Septuagint-based psalter of the same vintage, such as the Lancelot Brenton Psalter, or a newer Septuagint-derived Psalter, such as the Jordanville Psalter or the Psalter According to the Seventy from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, you will find that they align on chapter and verse boundaries and the content of certain distinctive readings, such as Psalm 95:5 (which is a much better reading than Masoretic Psalms 96:5 ; we already know the gods of the gentiles are idols, but the Septuagint provides us with some greatly more useful information by telling us “the gods of the gentiles are demons,” which explains the darker and more disturbing aspects of various ancient pagan religions such as human sacrifice, and the extreme darkness and evil that we see today, in much of Hinduism and Buddhism and in the fragments of the Latin pagan religion, such as the indigenous Inca religion, which is still practiced and involves the tragic sacrifice of beautiful and immensely intelligent llamas and alpacas, and the vile Santa Muerte death cult in Mexico, which by the way is not endorsed by the RCC even now.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why not? The Jews called many men named Judah "Jude". Nicknames, shortcuts, acronyms, & handles are not limited to English or modern times.

Because they did not call men named Joseph “Joe.” That’s anachronistic.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have eleven English bible versions in front of me Their evidence is what matters, not that of some men of the past. And there's not one quark of Scripture in any of them that says Mary was a perpetual virgin. But there's plenty of it indicating Jesus had at least 6 half-siblings, with no mention of their having another mom besides Mary.

Actually, there is much more of a quark of Scripture, in Luke 1, which has been pointed out, where Mary says in the original Greek not “I have not known men” in the past tense, but “I do not know men” in a continuous form of the present tense, indicating avowed virginity, which is a blessed thing according to St. Paul, who teaches us that it is better for women to remain virgins than to be married. Virginity is a special crown.

 

[The Liturgist]

You don't know history very well. The whole world that could write recorded the incident of the sun's reversal in one manner or another. The Chinese recorded it as a long night when the stars wandered. The Pawnee Indians have a legend about a hare setting a trap to catch the sun as he rose, but the sun saw the trap & retreated, only rising when the hare gave up & took down his trap. The Greek legend of Phaeton, who couldn't control the chariot & horses that pulled the sun, letting them run wild, is also based on this. The Egyptians buried several sundial clocks, saying they were no longer accurate. So, the event was not limited to Hez & crew.

I am very well versed in history and archaeology, and the incidents you are referring to are not connected, with some being much older and all of them completely unrelated, and some of them being urban legends. Regarding Egyptian burial of sundials, the only deliberately buried items among the egyptians, as opposed to those items found in lower archaeological layers as cities are built up over time, are those items buried as funerary items.

I also know physics, and the accelerational force needed to move the earth from an orbital velocity where the year was 360 days long vs. 365 days long would have to be prograde rather than retrograde; if it was retrograde the year would get longer, since the slower you orbit an object, the closer you get, and furthermore it would have to be immense, for example, a direct hit by a massive meteorite which would exterminate all life on Earth.

And referring to the illustrious St. Hezekiah as “hez and crew” is irreverant, as is referring to St. Joseph as Joe (Saint is just an old English word meaning Holy, hence old English churches named St. Sepulchre, St. Savior’s and so on - the Greeks use the word Hagios or Hagia).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why would we do that seeing as no one has claimed he did?

Simply because the other poster seems to be quite intent on the idea that Jerome, being a saint, fully embraced the deutercanonical books as the inspired word of God. From a scholarly standpoint he did not, if, in actual fact, he used the Hebrew text rather than the Septuagint for his translation of the Old Testament. Whatever one might wish to think about the man, one can only alter facts to one's peril.

By the way, perhaps you can help me out and provide a list of doctrines that solely emanate from the deutercanonical books.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As @prodromos said, we did not claim that - he used a Hebrew and Aramaic source which is no longer extant, with one exception, that being the Psalter, which he did translate from the Septuagint as the Roman Church, like the Orthodox Church, was dependent on Septuagint versification for their use of the Psalter. So consequently, if you compare the Challoner Douai Rheims Psalter with a Septuagint-based psalter of the same vintage, such as the Lancelot Brenton Psalter, or a newer Septuagint-derived Psalter, such as the Jordanville Psalter or the Psalter According to the Seventy from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, you will find that they align on chapter and verse boundaries and the content of certain distinctive readings, such as Psalm 95:5 (which is a much better reading than Masoretic Psalms 96:5 ; we already know the gods of the gentiles are idols, but the Septuagint provides us with some greatly more useful information by telling us “the gods of the gentiles are demons,” which explains the darker and more disturbing aspects of various ancient pagan religions such as human sacrifice, and the extreme darkness and evil that we see today, in much of Hinduism and Buddhism and in the fragments of the Latin pagan religion, such as the indigenous Inca religion, which is still practiced and involves the tragic sacrifice of beautiful and immensely intelligent llamas and alpacas, and the vile Santa Muerte death cult in Mexico, which by the way is not endorsed by the RCC even now.

Thank you for the precise and detailed explanation. Do you agree that Jerome would have needed the Septuagint in order to translate the deutercanonical books and that he was reluctant to do so, but eventually did so using the Septuagint for his translation?