Is there salvation without Mary?

[robycop3]

Actually, he has provided evidence. The evidence, such as it is, consists of the opinions of men born centuries after the fact who were evidently influenced by the secular culture of their time.

Same as us.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Same as us.

Precisely.

 

[prodromos]

Then, why did she ask?

That has been explained already.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe that the Moravian Church is now in full fellowship with the ELCA/ELCIC and their affiliates, what is left of their congregations, if they are using new hymnals, it would likely be the ELCA book.

Well viewing their services online, it didn’t look that bad. I mean, the new ELCA/ELCIC hymnal is distinctive and not in a good way. It seemed rather more like a typical 1979 BCP or LBW/LW Lutheran service. Not bad, but not spectacularly good or interesting, which their prior hymnals from the 1930s and 70s suggest their services would have been, particularly with the distinctive Moravian hymns.

 

[The Liturgist]

And that 'early church' started getting wobbly during that time, even as some were spreading corruption while the apostles were alive.

Something which you cannot prove and is a giant myth associated with the Landmark Baptists and other Restorationist groups.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why, YES IT DOES! I posted the verses above! And there's not one quark of Scripture saying Joe had been married before, by the slightest implication!

Umm you can keep saying that, but a better approach might be to actually reread the texts in question, because if you read them, you will see that Mary is not identified as the mother of those other verses, hence the not unwarranted frustration of my friend @prodromos

 

[robycop3]

You have provided no Scriptural evidence to support your opinion, you have conjectured that although some form of the word "brother' in the Bible in example after example refers to cousin or kinsmen that somehow, in the example you cite, it must prove that Mary had other children. Do not try and add your personal belief to the Word of God.

The WOG says they were His bros. & that He had sisters as well. THAT'S what counts. There's NOTHING in the WOG suggesting Mary was a perpetual virgin. That's a RCC invention.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The WOG says they were His bros. & that He had sisters as well. THAT'S what counts. There's NOTHING in the WOG suggesting Mary was a perpetual virgin. That's a RCC invention.

Semper Virago is the norm; your position is a recent innovation attributable only to the most radical of the radical reformers. It is also irreverent and disrespectful of the Mother of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Semper Virago is the norm; your position is a recent innovation attributable only to the most radical of the radical reformers. It is also irreverent and disrespectful of the Mother of God.

Indeed. When Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and Jan Hus are in support of the doctrine of perpetual virginity of the Theotokos, in addition to all of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches and the ancient Assyrian Church of the East, which were never under the control of the Roman Catholic Pope, and which in many cases, including the Church of the East, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Georgian Orthodox Church, were never under the control of the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire. This also applies to the Serbian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox and Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches, some of which, notably the Serbian church, were established in territories that had been lost by the Roman Empire and were later occupied by Slavs, who were then converted to Christianity, but had their own church and their own Patriarchate outside of the control of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church. And of course, the Russian Orthodox Church was never under the control of the Roman or Byzantine Empires because conquering even Scythia (Kiev and Crimea) would have been logistically impossible, even after the Christianization of the Balkans. Far less was it under the control or influence of the Roman Catholic Church; indeed, the Teutonic Knights famously attempted a crusade to impose Roman Catholicism on the Russian Orthodox but were defeated on the frozen Lake Neva by St. Alexander Nevsky. And the Greek Orthodox bishop St. Mark of Ephesus and the laity of the Byzantine Empire rose up to stop the merger of the Greek Orthodox Church into the Roman Catholic Church, which the other bishops and the Emperor had agreed to in 1430 in return for the promise of military assistance to save the Byzantine Empire from conquest by the Turks, but for the Greek Orthodox laity, they chose Turkocratia, the extremely unpleasant rule by the Turks, the loss of their most beautiful churches like the Hagia Sophia, which were desecrated and turned into Mosques, in order to retain their Orthodox faith.

And the oldest continually existing Protestant theological tradition*, the Unitas Fratrum, was founded by St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, venerated as martyrs by the Eastern Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, because their reason for establishing it was to regain the Eucharist in both kinds (the body and blood of our Lord) and a liturgy they could understand in Old Church Slavonic or Czech or Slovak, which they had been deprived of when the Austrian Empire conquered Bohemia and Moravia and imposed Roman Catholicism on the previously Eastern Orthodox populace.

*The oldest Protestant church is the Waldensian church, but they integrated with the Reformed Churches in Switzerland and became autonomous again only when it came to spreading the reformation into Italy, and since the current Waldensian Church is the result of a merger between the old Waldensian Church, which was Calvinist, and the Italian Methodist Church, which was Arminian, or Non-Calvinist as I prefer to say, the Waldensians of today are basically a generic Protestant church lacking the distinct belief system of the Unitas Fratrum, also known as the Moravian Church, which has its own theology, hymns and liturgical traditions, like the Love Feast, the Christmas Stars, and the plain cemetaries known as God’s Acre, which reflect a mix of Orthodox, Lutheran and Pietist religious influence, and Czech, German, and Anglo-American cultural influence. Indeed, there are a few Presbyterian churches in the US which are part of the PCUSA but were founded by Waldensian immigrants, and are called Waldensian Presbyterian churches, but theologically, they are the same as other PCUSA parishes.

 

[The Liturgist]

...

This post was made accidentally.

 

[robycop3]

...

This post was made accidentally.

That happens when I hate it...Something like that!(LOL)

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[prodromos]

There's NOTHING in the WOG suggesting Mary was a perpetual virgin. That's a RCC invention.

There is plenty support in Scripture for Mary being only the mother of Jesus. It is not a RCC invention. It was the understanding passed down in the Church long before the papacy became established in Rome as it now exists in the Catholic Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think that we all agree that Mary was the only mother of Jesus Christ.

 

[prodromos]

I think that we all agree that Mary was the only mother of Jesus Christ.

Which is not what I said.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Which is not what I said.

Quite true. I did not quote you as saying that, did I? I merely stated a belief which all Christians hold. I assume you believe that, as well.

 

[prodromos]

Quite true. I did not quote you as saying that, did I? I merely stated a belief which all Christians hold. I assume you believe that, as well.

You might as well have stated that wood comes from trees.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You might as well have stated that wood comes from trees.

Does it really?

 

[Abaxvahl]

I think that we all agree that Mary was the only mother of Jesus Christ.

This, Theotokos, a Virgin Birth (virginity ante-partum and in-partu), and salvation, her being worthy of imitation in some degree, and probably something else I am missing are the bare minimums all believe concerning her. This is true.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This, Theotokos, a Virgin Birth (virginity ante-partum and in-partu), and salvation, her being worthy of imitation in some degree, and probably something else I am missing are the bare minimums all believe concerning her. This is true.

Yes, I think all Christians agree on these things.