Your arguments, or should I say explanations of the concepts surrounding "purgatory" left me to question where your belief lies... but I guess you were just giving information...
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Your arguments, or should I say explanations of the concepts surrounding "purgatory" left me to question where your belief lies... but I guess you were just giving information...I beg your pardon! I several times explained that I do not believe in Purgatory and I do not believe that there is a Scriptura basis for Purgatory BUT I was correcting some misconceptions you posted concerning the Catholic Church's teaching about Purgatory.
The belief--not my own, remember--is that justice requires some satisfaction for major sins that you committed in the past, even if the eternal consequences of them have been forgiven, and for minor offenses that were not confessed. Hence, Purgatory.Why would the saved still serve jail time, if they are saved from having the sentence? Death is the final enemy we overcome (1 Corinthians 15:26), what more would there be to overcome?
The belief--not my own, remember--is that justice requires some satisfaction for major sins that you committed in the past, even if the eternal consequences of them have been forgiven, and for minor offenses that were not confessed. Hence, Purgatory.
Then, purged, you will pass on to Heaven. The souls in Purgatory have been saved from destruction or eternal damnation, unlike those in Hell, but they must "pay" for their wrongdoing just the same.
I beg your pardon! I several times explained that I do not believe in Purgatory and I do not believe that there is a Scriptura basis for Purgatory BUT I was correcting some misconceptions you posted concerning the Catholic Church's teaching about Purgatory.
There is no second chance at salvation involved with Purgatory. Those who go there already are guaranteed Heaven. If not, they'd have been in Hell instead.This whole idea of "purgatory" infuriates me to no end.
What better weapon has Satan fabricated than the idea that you will have a second chance, that others can pray for you, that somehow, you will be able to earn your way to paradise and avoid damnation?
You're talking about indulgences. They relate to Purgatory, but this is a separate issue from whether or not there is Purgatory and how it is supposed to work.How much money has the church collected from poor ignorant people paying to save a soul who's fate has been sealed?
Limbo is not Purgatory (in case there is any question about that). The Roman Catholic Church no longer teaches that unbaptised babies go to a Limbo where they will be happy forever, but not see the face of God as do those in Heaven.How many parents have spent lives in torment thinking that their child is in "limbo" due to them not being baptized?
It is possible that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory, but it does appear that the concept had it's roots in Judaism.Of course God judges both the saved and the unsaved. But as for Purgatory, there are two reasons anyone will be sent there: 1. unforgiven minor (venial) sins and 2. already forgiven mortal sins. As you can see, this effectively means that virtually everyone who is saved will spent some time in Purgatory prior to being admitted to Heaven.
You're mistaken, but I have no idea where you might have picked up this misinformation. By the way, there is only one major denomination that believes in Purgatory, so it's what the Roman Catholic Church says about Purgatory's workings that matters.
Maybe, maybe not. But the Catholic Church invented Purgatory and I am simply passing along what it says Purgatory is all about. There is no appealing the judgment. If you have ever committed a Mortal Sin or die with unforgiven Venial sins, you MUST be purged of the effects before reaching Heaven.
You might put it that way, and of course the soul in Purgatory could simply stay until his appointed time there is completed.
It is believed that prayers, Masses, and other good works done by the faithful on Earth can be applied to the souls in Purgatory. Also, indulgences can be obtained; they come with different levels of remitting suffering. Where the goodness comes from that makes possible this shortening of suffering is a question, to which the church has answered that there were some saints who did more goodness than needed for their own salvation and that surplus merit, stored, as it were, in a "Treasury of Merit" can by the power of the church be disbursed to the souls in Purgatory in the form of indulgences or even jubilee years when they are declared.
I do not believe there is any scriptural proof of this. I'm simply passing along the belief as the Roman Catholic Church believes it and correcting some misconceptions that got posted in this thread. The Church does offer several passages as her evidence. If you are interested in examining them, I'd recommend further study. Or you could post a request on their forum here on CF.
Something similar to it but much less specific perhaps.It is possible that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory, but it does appear that the concept had it's roots in Judaism.
It is unfortunate that Purgatory has been misunderstood. Albion is correct. While many of us do not like the concept, it is taught by the Catholic Church that it is not a place for second chances. That would be an unfair characterization. However, there does appear to be the possibility of a second chance within Eastern Orthodoxy, but no guarantee that such will be successful for any particular person that is now in Hades, aka conditional Hell.There is no second chance at salvation involved with Purgatory. Those who go there already are guaranteed Heaven. If not, they'd have been in Hell instead.
You're talking about indulgences. They relate to Purgatory, but this is a separate issue from whether or not there is Purgatory and how it is supposed to work.
Limbo is not Purgatory (in case there is any question about that). The Roman Catholic Church no longer teaches that unbaptised babies go to a Limbo where they will be happy forever, but not see the face of God as do those in Heaven.
Agreed. Judaism never developed the concept nearly as thoroughly as Catholicism.Something similar to it but much less specific perhaps.
regardless, it is a false teaching and under values the sacrifice by Jesus which scripture says was the only offering that takes away sin. Faith involves believing the word of God which produces the faith(Rom 10:17). Read Hebrews 10:11-18 and you can see that those set apart by faith in Jesus are perfected forever by that offering and the last words in v18 are these: Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.Something similar to it but much less specific perhaps.
There are those strange few verses in Peter where Jesus goes and preaches to the spirits (people) in prison who perished in the flood. So maybe the question should be: Are there some people who hear the Gospel after they die. And do some believe to salvation?Is there salvation after death?
since hell (both Biblical and mythical) is temporary)
All of us here should realize that even in this day and age of a multitude of communications, there are still people that live and die without ever hearing the Gospel message. Perhaps these people go to "Hades", the conditional Hell that the Eastern Orthodox believe in, and maybe Jesus preaches to them and maybe some of them do accept the Gospel message and get saved?There is that strange few verses in Peter where Jesus goes and preaches to the spirits (people) in prison who perished in the flood. So maybe the question should be: Are there some people who hear the Gospel after they die. And do some believe to salvation?
I would say that is entirely possible\plausable. Outside of the hades part.All of us here should realize that even in this day and age of a multitude of communications, there are still people that live and die without ever hearing the Gospel message. Perhaps these people go to "Hades", the conditional Hell that the Eastern Orthodox believe in, and maybe Jesus preaches to them and maybe some of them do accept the Gospel message and get saved?
No one is without excuse, if they believe the word of God.
Romans 1:18-32 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
One doesn't have to be a universalist to believe babies get born again after being killed by abortion. Or that there is a purgatory (or the like) where the unsaved may have a first or second chance for salvation.
What about the whole salvation is through faith... If you die and the afterlife is opened to you, as it was to the rich man and Lazarus..... it would be impossible to have "faith" for faith is belief in something you are not sure of... those, after death, will be well aware of their fate that awaits them... they will no longer have the luxury of faith for they will have full knowledge.
The living have to be born again - when they choose to accept the Gospel .. they believe and they are born again.
The dead don't have crusades and when the dead are raised they are raised incorruptible (the dead in Christ that is - 1 Thess 4) so they too do not need to be born-again.
One is either saved or lost when they die and being resurrected does not change it. When the saints are raised they are raised incorruptible. The baby that is raised is raised incorruptible.
"to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17 babies are not in that group.
Matthew 12:32
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”
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