Is there salvation after death?

[Albion]

One doesn't have to be a universalist to believe babies get born again after being killed by abortion. Or that there is a purgatory (or the like) where the unsaved may have a first or second chance for salvation.

Neither of those views is at all common among the Christian churches I've ever heard of, but I guess you are entitled to believe whatever you feel best with.

Babies who never were born obviously cannot be saved in any manner that applies to the rest of us, although there is now a widespread feeling that God must have a place for infants who die before being baptised; and Purgatory has nothing to do with second chances. The theory of Purgatory holds that it is only for those who are already among the saved.

 

[The Times]

Purgatory is heresy

It is a destructive to the faith heresy, that removes the saviour from the equation of salvation.

Purgatory is a sort of an appeal process for clemency, after the fact.

The questions are.....

Who is the individual appealing against?
Who are the family members and friends who do penance appeal against?

You see, there must be a decision of judgement made post biological death, which is being appealed against in due process.

The appeal, is therefore against the righteous Judge's post biological judgment decision of that individual in question.

So, the preposterous idea of purgatory, is that a sentence given from an already made decision by the righteous Judge can be reduced, by appealing against it and against the Judge who deliberated over it and made it.

It really puts into question, the Judge who made the decision in the first place and yet to appeal to the same authority to overturn His decision, is absolutely preposterous to say the least, for it is a joke! Therefore a heresy!

It would be like placing the Church as attorney and family as witnesses, making that appeal against the righteous Judge and his decision.

Therefore, making the power of attorney more valid, than the Judge who deliberated over and made the decision in the first place.

This is why after biological death, there can be no further evidence taken into account after judgement, in reducing the sentence and in this respect, any evidence post death is therefore inadmissible in the decision process.

Paul highlighted this fact as follows..... because the Judgement decision will only take into account, the evidence for the works done whilst the individual lived.

8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

 

[salt-n-light]

No. At that point its either you're saved or not saved.

 

[Albion]

It is a destructive to the faith heresy, that removes the saviour from the equation of salvation.

Purgatory is a sort of an appeal process for clemency, after the fact.

No. That is not what Purgatory represents.

It is a state of being (or place, if you wish) for saved people to be purged of the effects of sin before going on to heaven. It is taught that prayers and certain acts on the part of mortals can be applied to them and thus shorten the stay of the soul in Purgatory, but there is no appeals process.

 

[The Times]

No. At that point its either you're saved or not saved.

Exactly.....

That is why Paul said, before he was to be executed by the Roman authorities, the following......

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Upon biological death, the race has finished for that individual and what awaits is the Judgement decision, by the righteous Judge, who will take into account all the works of faith and loyalty to the saviour, done in the earthly body. (2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

 

[Albion]

Upon biological death, the race has finished for that individual and what awaits is the Judgement decision, by the righteous Judge, who will take into account all the works of faith and loyalty to the saviour, done in the earthly body. (2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

And the teaching about Purgatory does not alter that fact.

 

[The Times]

No. That is not what Purgatory represents.

It is a state of being (or place, if you wish) for saved people to be purged of the effects of sin before going on to heaven. It is taught that prayers and certain acts on the part of mortals can be applied to them and thus shorten the stay of the soul in Purgatory, but there is no appeals process.

Purgatory is after post biological death, post Judgement decision, in reducing the sentence and its severity, for that is what the action of penance does, as power attorney on behalf of the individual serving in purgatory, who is appealing for clemency against the decision that has already been made by the righteous Judge.

It is an appeal against the Rigtheous Judge and his after the fact decision.

 

[The Times]

And the teaching about Purgatory does not alter that fact.

Purgatory is appealing the Judgement decision. No way around denying this fact my friend.

 

[The Times]

Purgatory is an appeals process, to have the decision overturned and the prisoner allowed to go free.

While the individual serves in purgatory, there is a power of attorney acting on his behalf, in the form of a church and family as witnesses. So that individual remains in a holding cell, or purgatory arrangement or condition or state, whilst an appeal process is underway to have that individual freed.

 

[The Times]

Purgatory is making a mockery of the sovereign righteous Judge and is highly destructive to the faith and it places people under a false sense of security, in the hope that their deboucherous life in the here and now, can somehow be successfully appealed against and to have the Judge's decision who made the judgment decision overturned.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory is after a post biological death, post Judgement decision, in reducing the sentence and its severity, for that is what the action of penance does, as power attorney on behalf of the individual serving in purgatory, who is appealing for clemency against the decision that has already been made by the righteous Judge.

Nope. After the judgment you referred to, the saved go to Purgatory before going on to Heaven, while the damned go to Hell.

Nothing the soul in Purgatory can do will appeal the sentence or its severity or length. And there is no appealing the judgment.

The only thing possible is for those of us still living to say certain appointed prayers or perform certain acts that carry merit with them (including Masses), as stipulated by the church, and offer them up for souls in Purgatory so their time there may be shortened.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory is an appeals process, to have the decision overturned and the prisoner allowed to go free.

Absolutely not. There is no such process with Purgatory. Purgatory is a state of being or place in which the soul is purged. It is believed that this process can be shortened by the petitions and acts of the living, but there is no reversal of the judgment itself which committed the soul to Purgatory.

 

[Basil the Great]

Some people believe that souls are offered a chance to repent and accept Christ at the moment of their death. Where this line of thought originated, I do not know.

Eastern Orthodox believe that those destined for Hell receive a foretaste of Hell when they die and that those destined for Heaven receive a foretaste of Heaven, but that souls do not actually go to Heaven or Hell until Jesus returns. Some Eastern Orthodox believe that it is possible that some of those receiving a foretaste of Hell might be able to still go to Heaven, if enough prayers are offered on on their behalf and I suppose if the particular souls involved did not lead horrendous lives. This is based upon the belief that we receive conditional sentences when we die and that our sentence is not final until the Final Judgment. St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer is what apparently leads some to believe that there might be a chance for some souls in bondage to escape their fate. I do not believe that all Eastern Orthodox share this view, but I cannot give you a percentage of those who believe it possible that some might totally escape their bondage and move up to Heaven vs. those who believe that prayers for them might lighten their sufferings, but that they cannot escape their ultimate fate.

This line of thought is a modification of Jesus' teaching that Hell is eternal, but not a rejection of said teaching. Eastern Orthodoxy still teaches that Hell is forever, but I guess it is a question of when one goes to Hell. Is it immediately, as most Catholics and Protestants believe, or is it at the Final Judgment, which Orthodoxy teaches, for if it is at the Final Judgment, perhaps some souls might have a chance to escape their fate and be loosed from their bonds and make it to Heaven before Jesus returns?

 

[The Times]

Nope. After the judgment you referred to, the saved go to Purgatory before going on to Heaven, while the damned go to Hell.

Deemed as saved by whom?

If deemed saved by the righteous Judge, then how could they be deemed saved by the righteous Judge and still go to purgatory? On what basis?

Who are the damned?

Who deems who the damned are?

Nothing the soul in Purgatory can do will appeal the sentence or its severity or length. And there is no appealing the judgment.

Really! That is not what certain churches are teaching.

Go back and look at their doctrine.

Some churches have made themselves the power of attorney to award clemency as they will.

Historically these churches have made an economic industry out of this doctrine, similar to how solicitors, like vultures gather around the carcuses of their prey, to squeeze every ounce of blood out of families, by using loved ones as spiritual hostages.

Purgatory is a doctrine of hostage taking, that is unless the ransom in the form of penance is paid, historically speaking then and only then will a church enterprise declare that the family member is freed from purgatory, when they open their hokus pokes jubilee door of mercy, in granting indulgence to those serving in purgatory.

They do declare in prayers that the hostage prisoners are freed after the down payment is made, after the jubilee door of mercy is opened, is it not?

The only thing possible is for those of us still living to say certain appointed prayers or perform certain acts that carry merit with them (including Masses), as stipulated by the church, and offer them up for souls in Purgatory so their time there may be shortened.

What merits would they be?

Merits to reduce the stay in purgatory?

You still have not scripturally proven to me and others, why the saved go to purgatory?

Please provide me the words of Jesus and not an elitious anthesis religious dogma of the once Roman shakers and movers of the world, under Constantine and the rat bag emperors that followed him.

 

[Albion]

Deemed as saved by whom?

If deemed saved by the righteous Judge, then how could they be deemed saved by the righteous Judge and still go to purgatory? On what basis?

Who are the damned?

Who deems who the damned are?

Of course God judges both the saved and the unsaved. But as for Purgatory, there are two reasons anyone will be sent there: 1. unforgiven minor (venial) sins and 2. already forgiven mortal sins. As you can see, this effectively means that virtually everyone who is saved will spent some time in Purgatory prior to being admitted to Heaven.

Really! That is not what certain churches are teaching.

You're mistaken, but I have no idea where you might have picked up this misinformation. By the way, there is only one major denomination that believes in Purgatory, so it's what the Roman Catholic Church says about Purgatory's workings that matters.

Some churches have made themselves the power of attorney to award clemency as they will.

Maybe, maybe not. But the Catholic Church invented Purgatory and I am simply passing along what it says Purgatory is all about. There is no appealing the judgment. If you have ever committed a Mortal Sin or die with unforgiven Venial sins, you MUST be purged of the effects before reaching Heaven.

Purgatory is a doctrine of hostage taking, that is unless the ransom in the form of penance is paid, historically speaking then and only then will a church enterprise declare that the family member is freed from purgatory, when they open their hokus pokes jubilee door of mercy, in granting indulgence to those serving in purgatory.

You might put it that way, and of course the soul in Purgatory could simply stay until his appointed time there is completed.

They do declare in prayers that the hostage prisoners are freed after the down payment is made, after the jubilee door of mercy is opened, is it not?

It is believed that prayers, Masses, and other good works done by the faithful on Earth can be applied to the souls in Purgatory. Also, indulgences can be obtained; they come with different levels of remitting suffering. Where the goodness comes from that makes possible this shortening of suffering is a question, to which the church has answered that there were some saints who did more goodness than needed for their own salvation and that surplus merit, stored, as it were, in a "Treasury of Merit" can by the power of the church be disbursed to the souls in Purgatory in the form of indulgences or even jubilee years when they are declared.

You still have not scripturally proven to me and others, why the saved go to purgatory?

I do not believe there is any scriptural proof of this. I'm simply passing along the belief as the Roman Catholic Church believes it and correcting some misconceptions that got posted in this thread. The Church does offer several passages as her evidence. If you are interested in examining them, I'd recommend further study. Or you could post a request on their forum here on CF.

 

[The Times]

Some people believe that souls are offered a chance to repent and accept Christ at the moment of their death. Where this line of thought originated, I do not know.

Eastern Orthodox believe that those destined for Hell receive a foretaste of Hell when they die and that those destined for Heaven receive a foretaste of Heaven, but that souls do not actually go to Heaven or Hell until Jesus returns. Some Eastern Orthodox believe that it is possible that some of those receiving a foretaste of Hell might be able to still go to Heaven, if enough prayers are offered on on their behalf and I suppose if the particular souls involved did not lead horrendous lives. This is based upon the belief that we receive conditional sentences when we die and that our sentence is not final until the Final Judgment. St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer is what apparently leads some to believe that there might be a chance for some souls in bondage to escape their fate. I do not believe that all Eastern Orthodox share this view, but I cannot give you a percentage of those who believe it possible that some might totally escape their bondage and move up to Heaven vs. those who believe that prayers for them might lighten their sufferings, but that they cannot escape their ultimate fate.

Thankyou for your input.

I need you to reflect a little, on what Jesus would want of us and his Church, the body of believers.

If Jesus made a provision for purgatory, would he not have succinctly explained it in his own words?

Right, ok....now......I want you to reflect deeper.....

Let us first look at history and in particular, in how purgatory has been used by secular pagan Roman emperors and elites, in creating a narrative that family members are spiritual hostages serving in purgatory and that the religious enterprise, serving alongside the emperors, has the power of attorney and the power of Vito, to award clemency and indulgences.

Did you know that an entire economy was established from this doctrine, in spiritually imprisoning the minds of family members of deceased relatives, by making them obligated to financially sponsor this economic religious industrial complex, that enslaves them. Yes that is right, the elites used religion to enslave humanity and now they are abandoning religion and enslaving them through another devious method.

Ask yourself this final question, after having answered the first.......

Would Jesus be the author of purgatory, if history is anything to go by, where his name has been used to imprison an entire Roman society, be it also the world, into serving and sponsoring a system, that not only spiritually enslaves its subjects, but also reeks financial benefits and all in the name of Jesus?

Would Jesus have created purgatory, to allow men to manipulate the minds of the members of his own body.

Does not scripture state.....

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

We are not prisoners of purgatory, for as soon as we make ourselves prisoners of purgatory, we become prisoners of men and their religious industrial complex.

The author who created purgatory is not God, for he would not hand over his power and reign to man, for he is the head of his Church.

Daniel 2:44
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people.

In fact the author of purgatory who imprisons the minds of his subjects is you know who.....

Isaiah 14:17
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Who is the author of purgatory?

Did Jesus spell it out, in order for his sheep to know?
Would Jesus establish a place to imprison his saved sheep?

We are not living in medieval times, we are now in the know and can discern, who has been imprisoning the minds of the elect sheep of God for the last Millenia.

Daniel 7:25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Who is the author of purgatory?

Now you know!

 

[TuxAme]

For the holy souls in purgatory, yes. Their salvation is assured. As for those in hell, they chose to reject God, and He won't force them to spend eternity with Him.

 

[The Times]

Of course God judges both the saved and the unsaved. But as for Purgatory, there are two reasons anyone will be sent there: 1. unforgiven minor (venial) sins and 2. already forgiven mortal sins. As you can see, this effectively means that virtually everyone who is saved will spent some time in Purgatory prior to being admitted to Heaven.

This would be a preposterous deduction to make, because it would imply that even after the cross of Christ, there is still a game of politics being played out and that the cross of Christ and the Holy Spirit as the guarantee to what is to come, is not part of that equation of politcal ramblings.

You sincerely must have the Creator confused with the political ploys of the enemy who still aims at imprisoning and poisoning the minds of those, of the Cross of Christ and the Holy Spirit justified and sanctified in this temporal life.

This post biological death political arena is in my opinion, the ploy of the enemy, to detract from the hope in the cross and the guarantee of the Spirit.

This, then becomes the ploy of the enemy, as a vote of no confidence in "virtually everyone who is saved will spent some time in Purgatory prior to being admitted to Heaven".

You're mistaken, but I have no idea where you might have picked up this misinformation. By the way, there is only one major denomination that believes in Purgatory, so it's what the Roman Catholic Church says about Purgatory's workings that matters.

We are looking at history and how this doctrine has crept into all denominational thinking, within the verbiage of praying for the dead.

Maybe, maybe not. But the Catholic Church invented Purgatory and I am simply passing along what it says Purgatory is all about. There is no appealing the judgment. If you have ever committed a Mortal Sin or die with unforgiven Venial sins, you MUST be purged of the effects before reaching Heaven.

I don't believe that Jesus created another political legally inspired arena, where for many who believe this, results in a vote of no confidence in the Cross of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

You might put it that way, and of course the soul in Purgatory could simply stay until his appointed time there is completed.

After the Cross of Christ and the Holy Spirit guarantee, who would sponsor spiritual hostage taking?

......hmmmmmm........

It is believed that prayers, Masses, and other good works done by the faithful on Earth can be applied to the souls in Purgatory. Also, indulgences can be obtained; they come with different levels of remitting suffering. Where the goodness comes from that makes possible this shortening of suffering is a question, to which the church has answered that there were some saints who did more goodness than needed for their own salvation and that surplus merit, stored, as it were, in a "Treasury of Merit" can by the power of the church be disbursed to the souls in Purgatory in the form of indulgences or even jubilee years when they are declared.

You summed up the economic religious complex, that has ensalved the masses in believing that the Cross and the Spirit never really totally freed them and now they still have to employ their attorney to fight for them, at a financial cost to their families that is.

Off course, Jesus wouldn't be the author of this influential commercial industry.

I do not believe there is any scriptural proof of this. I'm simply passing along the belief as the Roman Catholic Church believes it and correcting some misconceptions that got posted in this thread. The Church does offer several passages as her evidence. If you are interested in examining them, I'd recommend further study. Or you could post a request on their forum here on CF.

Do you not think that Jesus would have succinctly informed his sheep of a place like purgatory, that would affect most who pass from this temporal life?

In Eastern Orthodox prayers, it is said in prayers for the dead, that they have migrated from this temporal life, to be with Christ.

This would corroborate with what Paul said, as follows....

8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:8-10)

 

[Basil the Great]

Thankyou for your input.

I need you to reflect a little, on what Jesus would want of us and his Church, the body of believers.

If Jesus made a provision for purgatory, would he not have succinctly explained it in his own words?

Right, ok....now......I want you to reflect deeper.....

Let us first look at history and in particular, in how purgatory has been used by secular pagan Roman emperors and elites, in creating a narrative that family members are spiritual hostages serving in purgatory and that the religious enterprise, serving alongside the emperors, has the power of attorney and the power of Vito, to award clemency and indulgences.

Did you know that an entire economy was established from this doctrine, in spiritually imprisoning the minds of family members of deceased relatives, by making them obligated to financially sponsor this economic religious industrial complex, that enslaves them. Yes that is right, the elites used religion to enslave humanity and now they are abandoning religion and enslaving them through another devious method.

Ask yourself this final question, after having answered the first.......

Would Jesus be the author of purgatory, if history is anything to go by, where his name has been used to imprison an entire Roman society, be it also the world, into serving and sponsoring a system, that not only spiritually enslaves its subjects, but also reeks financial benefits and all in the name of Jesus?

Would Jesus have created purgatory, to allow men to manipulate the minds of the members of his own body.

Does not scripture state.....

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

We are not prisoners of purgatory, for as soon as we make ourselves prisoners of purgatory, we become prisoners of men and their religious industrial complex.

The author who created purgatory is not God, for he would not hand over his power and reign to man, for he is the head of his Church.

Daniel 2:44
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people.

In fact the author of purgatory who imprisons the minds of his subjects is you know who.....

Isaiah 14:17
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Who is the author of purgatory?

Did Jesus spell it out, in order for his sheep to know?
Would Jesus establish a place to imprison his saved sheep?

We are not living in medieval times, we are now in the know and can discern, who has been imprisoning the minds of the elect sheep of God for the last Millenia.

Daniel 7:25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

Who is the author of purgatory?

Now you know!

The Eastern Orthodox Church might share much in common with the Catholic Church, but they reject the doctrine of Purgatory. Yes, it is true that they both pray for the dead. However, Catholics do not pray for those in Hell, only for those believed to be in Purgatory. Orthodox pray for those that they believed may have received a sentence of conditional Hell and are now in a place let us call Hades, for lack of a better term, though it seems that they only specifically do this at Pentecost, when they pray St Basil's Third Kneeling prayer. There is a distinct difference between the two approaches. I should add that the Orthodox pray throughout the year for the departed, not just at Pentecost, when they get specific re: souls in bondage.

 

[The Times]

The Eastern Orthodox Church might share much in common with the Catholic Church, but they reject the doctrine of Purgatory. Yes, it is true that they both pray for the dead. However, Catholics do not pray for those in Hell, only for those believed to be in Purgatory. Orthodox pray for those that they believed may have received a sentence of conditional Hell and are now in a place let us call Hades, for lack of a better term, though it seems that they only specifically do this at Pentecost, when they pray St Basil's Third Kneeling prayer. There is a distinct difference between the two approaches. I should add that the Orthodox pray throughout the year for the departed, not just at Pentecost, when they get specific re: souls in bondage.

This was not so prior to 421 AD.