Is there room to boast in heaven?

[Skala]

Faith comes by hearing, just as hardening of the heart comes by hearing.

Can grace be credited for why we believe in Jesus?

Yes or no.

 

[Steeno7]

Can grace be credited for why we believe in Jesus?

Yes or no.

Yes.

 

[Skala]

Can grace be credited for why we believe in Jesus?

Yes or no.

Yes.

Cool. so when you said:

Yes, there is a difference. Some love the darkness more than the light. They do not believe because they will not believe.

What you meant was that grace is what is the difference.

 

[Steeno7]

Cool. so when you said:

What you meant was that grace is what is the difference.

It is by Gods initiative of grace through His Son. It is God who solicits our response, working through our circumstances to cause us to hear the gospel. It is God who engages in the solicitation whereby Jesus "draws men to Himself". It is God the Holy Spirit who convinces and convicts our mind and emotion concerning sin, and righteousness and judgment, thereby revealing our spiritual need and the provision for that need in the Person of Jesus Christ.

But it is not God who responds for us. It is not God who believes for us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this of Skala:
Jesus said this to a crowd of hostile unbelievers:
"unless you believe that I am He, you WILL die in your sins".

Was Jesus trying to get them to help themselves? yes or no, please.

When Jesus told another crowd of unbelievers that He mentioned John the baptizer, so "that you may be saved", was He trying to get them to help themselves? yes or no, please.

Thanks.

I would appreciate a response.

 

[bling]

If a person can say anything other than "I am here by God's Grace" (such as "I met God's requirements&quot, they have an excuse for being in heaven. To say that meeting God's requirements is not doing anything, is a contradiction. Calvinists are not saying that man does nothing, as has been falsely claimed by some. What we are saying is the impetus, and even the desire to do so comes from God, via Grace, such that the desire did not originate within ourselves, the impetus did not originate within ourselves, it came from God via Grace, applied by His Holy Spirit. Thus, we cannot boast of what we did, because we understand that if God had not acted on our hearts first, we would never have done anything toward receiving His Gift. Therefore our meeting of His requirements is not sourced within ourselves, but within Him.

The implication in the opposing view is that the desire, the impetus and the doing of meeting His requirements originated and was sourced within ourselves, thereby causing or moving God to react to our self-sourced actions, and save us.

How is it boasting to say: “I wimped out, I gave up and I was one of those soldiers that surrendered"

 

[Skala]

It is by Gods initiative of grace through His Son. It is God who solicits our response, working through our circumstances to cause us to hear the gospel. It is God who engages in the solicitation whereby Jesus "draws men to Himself". It is God the Holy Spirit who convinces and convicts our mind and emotion concerning sin, and righteousness and judgment, thereby revealing our spiritual need and the provision for that need in the Person of Jesus Christ.

But it is not God who responds for us. It is not God who believes for us.

I never argued that God responds for us or believes for us.

My argument is that grace and grace alone is to be credited for why two men differ, for why one man is a believer and one man isn't.

The man who is a believer isn't any better than the other guy. But grace caused him to be willing to believe. God intervened and changed his heart and opened his eyes, removing the blindfold, and spiritually resurrected him, when he was spiritually dead (Eph 2), etc. In other words, he was previously unwilling, but thanks to God intervening and changing the man, he is now willing.

In short, our positive response to the gospel is not because of anything different about us, but because God converted us, by grace.

Do you agree?

 

[Steeno7]

I never argued that God responds for us or believes for us.

My argument is that grace and grace alone is to be credited for why two men differ, for why one man is a believer and one man isn't.

The man who is a believer isn't any better than the other guy. But grace caused him to be willing to believe. God intervened and changed his heart and opened his eyes, removing the blindfold, and spiritually resurrected him, when he was spiritually dead (Eph 2), etc. In other words, he was previously unwilling, but thanks to God intervening and changing the man, he is now willing.

Do you agree?

Nope.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I never argued that God responds for us or believes for us.

The RT view is that because of the grace of regeneration, one will believe, so it's basically the same thing.

My argument is that grace and grace alone is to be credited for why two men differ, for why one man is a believer and one man isn't.

But you haven't given any evidence that grace causes anyone to believe, which clearly seems to be your point. If not, what exactly is your point?

The man who is a believer isn't any better than the other guy. But grace caused him to be willing to believe.

OK, there is it. Where in the Bible will I find the teaching that grace causes one to believe?

God intervened and changed his heart and opened his eyes, removing the blindfold, and spiritually resurrected him, when he was spiritually dead (Eph 2), etc. In other words, he was previously unwilling, but thanks to God intervening and changing the man, he is now willing.

However, Jesus refuted that in Jn 5:25 where He said that the time is now that the "dead" will hear (comprehend and believe) and will live (because of faith).

Further, Ezek 18:31 also refutes the idea that God regenerates unbelievers.
“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?"

In short, our positive response to the gospel is not because of anything different about us, but because God converted us, by grace.

Do you agree?

No. There is no evidence from Scripture that God converts people to cause them to respond to the gospel.

I've already shown evidence from Scripture that God has given to mankind all that is necessary to come to saving faith. So no one can boast. There is no difference between believers and unbelievers before faith. But there is a huge difference after faith. One is saved and the other one isn't, and has no excuse for being unsaved.

 

[Goodbook]

I suppose the difference to me grace alone it's like saying you got married because it was prearranged rather than grace through faith is your married because you love someone and want to spend the rest of your life with them.
Yes you couldn't have got married without the proposal but the proposal isn't the only part.

That's how I'm looking at it anyway.

 

[Skala]

Nope.

So you disagree with something you just agreed to earlier. Strange.

I originally said:

Can grace be credited for why we believe in Jesus?

You replied:

Yes.

Now you changed your mind and said "Nope".

 

[Steeno7]

So you disagree with something you just agreed to earlier. Strange.

I originally said:


You replied:


Now you changed your mind and said "Nope".

No. I did not change my mind. No grace, no drawing, no soliciting, no convincing, no convicting........no belief.

 

[Skala]

No. I did not change my mind. No grace, no drawing, no soliciting, no convincing, no convicting........no belief.

Yes you did change your mind. You originally agreed with me. Then you disagreed

 

[Steeno7]

Yes you did change your mind. You originally agreed with me. Then you disagreed

LOL. I agreed with what you said that I agreed with, and I disagreed with what you said that I disagreed with.

 

[reformed ttL]

Can't argue with that.
Good point.

(I am sorry you had 2nd degree burns).

thanks for the kind words

 

[reformed ttL]

That's a good question. People don't actually believe God's promise. They can understand it, but don't believe it, which pleases Him. So they aren't consciously making the choice to burn in hell rather than believe in Him. Obviously no one would make that kind of decision. But their failure to believe His promise is a choice, not that they believe it.but if the cross is preached and they are told repent and believe the gospel or they will perish in hell then why does one believe and the other not? same facts are preached to both, if they both have the same amount of faith should be a no brainer, 2 men lets say both homeless a rich stranger approaches and offers each man a million dollars one is grate full the other says no I like being homeless!!! what would you think? not very wise of one of them that is what your system looks like in my eyes

We see the same kind of relationship in politics. Two people can look at the same data, and come to different "beliefs" (conclusions) if one is a conservative and the other is a far left Marxist. see above

[QIUOTE] ive been in a fire 2nd degree burns most pain ive ever felt and that is nothing compared to what the reprobate will endure

Very sorry to hear that. Not fun, for sure. Hope all healed well.
thanks you for the kind words

My point is that all have the capacity to understand God's promise. That doesn't mean all will believe it. Some will and many won't. As in the wide and narrow way. but why if the correct message is given


No. Not at all. All have the same ability to understand. It's not about IQ, it's about whether or not one will believe what God promises, which doesn't require IQ.

In fact, Jesus made a point about this, when He said in Mark 10:14-15:
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

I believe He was noting that the simple faith of a child is what gets people in to the kingdom. I've heard reports that say that as people get older, it is much more difficult for them to come to faith. It's much easier when they are a child.

This proves that IQ isn't the issue. In fact, it seems the smarter (higher IQ) one is, the less likely they are to come to faith in Christ. Consider scientists. Most of them are atheists, even the ones who study astronomy and have no excuse for their view (Rom 1:20).[/quote]

 

[reformed ttL]

That's a good question. People don't actually believe God's promise. They can understand it, but don't believe it, which pleases Him. So they aren't consciously making the choice to burn in hell rather than believe in Him. Obviously no one would make that kind of decision. But their failure to believe His promise is a choice, not that they believe it.

We see the same kind of relationship in politics. Two people can look at the same data, and come to different "beliefs" (conclusions) if one is a conservative and the other is a far left Marxist.

[QIUOTE] ive been in a fire 2nd degree burns most pain ive ever felt and that is nothing compared to what the reprobate will endure

Very sorry to hear that. Not fun, for sure. Hope all healed well.


My point is that all have the capacity to understand God's promise. That doesn't mean all will believe it. Some will and many won't. As in the wide and narrow way.


No. Not at all. All have the same ability to understand. It's not about IQ, it's about whether or not one will believe what God promises, which doesn't require IQ.

In fact, Jesus made a point about this, when He said in Mark 10:14-15:
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

I believe He was noting that the simple faith of a child is what gets people in to the kingdom. I've heard reports that say that as people get older, it is much more difficult for them to come to faith. It's much easier when they are a child.

This proves that IQ isn't the issue. In fact, it seems the smarter (higher IQ) one is, the less likely they are to come to faith in Christ. Consider scientists. Most of them are atheists, even the ones who study astronomy and have no excuse for their view (Rom 1:20).[/quote]

Very sorry to hear that. Not fun, for sure. Hope all healed well.
thanks you for the kind words

My point is that all have the capacity to understand God's promise. That doesn't mean all will believe it. Some will and many won't. As in the wide and narrow way. but why if the correct message is given


No. Not at all. All have the same ability to understand. It's not about IQ, it's about whether or not one will believe what God promises, which doesn't require IQ.

In fact, Jesus made a point about this, when He said in Mark 10:14-15:
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

I believe He was noting that the simple faith of a child is what gets people in to the kingdom. I've heard reports that say that as people get older, it is much more difficult for them to come to faith. It's much easier when they are a child.

This proves that IQ isn't the issue. In fact, it seems the smarter (higher IQ) one is, the less likely they are to come to faith in Christ. Consider scientists. Most of them are atheists, even the ones who study astronomy and have no excuse for their view (Rom 1:20).

[/quote]sorry I obviously cant use the quote system correctly

 

[Skala]

LOL. I agreed with what you said that I agreed with, and I disagreed with what you said that I disagreed with.

I'm so confused

 

[Goodbook]

Yikes. Had an answer all prepared but got deleted. Hate when that happens!

Ok about the two people, both unbelievers. Both hear the gospel, which is preached with power. One believes and one doesn't. What is the difference..? Grace, sure. But grace isn't given out at random. Grace is given to the humble. I would say one repented and the other didnt.
the gospel isn't rocket science or something so arcane that you need to be initiated into it or zapped at random by God to believe. why would everything else on earth be possible to believe, including stuff like Scientology or Mormonism or Islam, but somehow what Jesus did is just too hard to believe that it needs supernatural intervention.
one man used his free will to believe and the other used his free will to reject. And God gives salvation, grace, to the one who believed. And God knows who truly believes because God looks on people's hearts.

Please don't confuse grace with mercy. sometimes God will just show up to someone like Paul and choose him and convert him. But that doesn't happen to everyone, and usually these people have heard the gospel many times. For example, Jewish people, who need signs. I think because they know they are chosen and are so used to signs.

 

[Doublemint]

...

Ok about the two people, both unbelievers. Both hear the gospel, which is preached with power. One believes and one doesn't. What is the difference..? Grace, sure. But grace isn't given out at random. Grace is given to the humble. I would say one repented and the other didnt.

I think this is a very good point - grace is given to the humble
1Pt5:5 ...
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."

How about the flip side of it - God opposes the proud.

Actually condition of the heart also is important - but that is pride, right?

Interesting.

.
the gospel isn't rocket science or something so arcane that you need to be initiated into it or zapped at random by God to believe. why would everything else on earth be possible to believe, including stuff like Scientology or Mormonism or Islam, but somehow what Jesus did is just too hard to believe that it needs supernatural intervention.
one man used his free will to believe and the other used his free will to reject. And God gives salvation, grace, to the one who believed. And God knows who truly believes because God looks on people's hearts.

Yes. Any encyclopedia can explain to anyone what the message is. Nothing is hidden. Even atheists can comprehend it.

One thing I cannot agree with. I understand we may use our free will to reject. It is all over the Bible. God even allows us even to resist Holy Spirit.
But how may we use our free will to receive something that is Supernatural in nature?

.Please don't confuse grace with mercy. sometimes God will just show up to someone like Paul and choose him and convert him. But that doesn't happen to everyone, and usually these people have heard the gospel many times.

Wonderful.
Grace is extended to the humble.
Mercy could be used even on the proud to humble them, like Paul.

For example, Jewish people, who need signs. I think because they know they are chosen and are so used to signs.

I am sorry I am breaking up your post so much, but you have a number of very interesting points here ...

Jews are not the only ones who want signs. Many from churches also look for signs.
Christ said he would not give any of us signs from heaven. The big ones. The signs with bells and whistles.
The problems with this is because signs are not convincing.
The impression of a sign fades with time.
Remember when Rich man asked Abraham to raise a dead man as a sign to his family to straighten out? Abraham said, if they do not listen to the Bible even great signs would not convince them.
So, signs lose conviction, fade away with time.

And the Jews became addicted to big signs.
Convince me. Bigger sign. Bigger sign.
So God shows we need to see his grace in small things.

Interesting.
Thanks