Is there really a deep state?

[Tom 1]

Boomers gonna Boomer

Do you really trust someone who is so ready to ditch his wife, twice, for a younger model?

 

[Broken Fence]

I don’t believe in the tooth fairy, the Knights Templar, Bilderberg, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a vast right wing conspiracy, or, for that matter, a vast left wing conspiracy. Are there in the U.S. government individual bureaucrats that are Democratic holdovers that would love nothing more than to damage Trump? Yeah, of course there are. Is there a concealed web of conspirators, malevolent permanent hidden shadow government? Rubbish. And I would add that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone without the help of Ted Cruz’s father.
- Charles Krauthammer, conservative columnist, Washington Post

- term was originally coined to refer to a relatively invisible state apparatus in Turkey "composed of high-level elements within the intelligence services, military, security, judiciary, and organized crime" and similar alleged networks in other countries including Egypt, Ukraine, Spain, Colombia, Italy, Israel, and many others.

- Salon Magazine traces Donald Trump's belief in a Deep State to conspiracy theorist Alex Jones of Infowars, who, it says, "believes that the government – a.k.a. the "deep state" – has orchestrated attacks and events throughout history. This includes the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building, the massacre at Sandy Hook (he claims that many of the parents were actors), the Boston Marathon attack, and on and on," including believing that the 9/11 attack was "executed by the United States government."

- Trump's long-time ally, Roger Stone, was another influence. Stone has written several books which center on conspiracy theories, and blames Lyndon Johnson for the death of President John F. Kennedy, and alleges that Ted Cruz's father was involved in that assassination.

- Steve Bannon, Trump's former chief strategist, have both made allegations about a deep state which they believe is interfering with the president's agenda. In 2018, describing the deep state as an "entrenched bureaucracy", Trump accused the United States Department of Justice "of being part of the 'deep state'" in a statement advocating the prosecution of Huma Abedin. Some Trump allies and right-wing media outlets have alleged that former president Barack Obama is coordinating a deep state resistance to Trump.

Deep state in the United States - Wikipedia
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The concept of the "deep state" was thought to have originated in Turkey, but the term itself was coined by conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and later adopted by those in Donald Trump's "inner circle" of friends and advisers - Roger Stone and Steve Bannon!

Throughout history, authoritarian leaders with "narcissistic" personalities have had to invent their own versions of the "deep state" because they were incapable of taking the responsibility for faulty decisions!

Thank you for replying. Very informative. Thank you for response.

 

[Broken Fence]

For one thing, do not respond by choosing not to vote. Doing that sends no message at all...unless it is that these people are too lazy or disinterested in issues of national concern to bother.

If you are convinced that both major parties are corrupt, off-course, or etc. vote THIRD PARTY at least, so that your vote registers as a protest against everything you tell us that you are opposed to.

In addition. casting such a vote says more than just this. It doesn't have to be the proverbial "wasted vote." If whichever third party you favor rises to the level of getting, say, a mere 4 or 5% of the total vote cast, that level often represents the difference between the winner and the loser of the two major parties. Even if both of them are unacceptable, your vote--and that third party's total vote--controls the outcome even if its own candidate isn't the winner.

Thank you for replying. I did not know that. Very informative. Thank you

 

[thecolorsblend]

Do you really trust someone who is so ready to ditch his wife, twice, for a younger model?

Boomers elevated divorce into an artform. Criticizing the Boomers for their fondness for divorce at this stage of the game is a bit repetitive.

 

[Tom 1]

Boomers elevated divorce into an artform. Criticizing the Boomers for their fondness for divorce at this stage of the game is a bit repetitive.

View attachment 279730

Higher standards are, or should be, expected of people who put themselves forward for leadership roles. Maybe you don’t mind, but I don’t want someone in charge who has that kind of indifference to others and a tendency to bail when things get tough. Case in point, Trump’s first crisis, the pandemic, and from the word go he abandons any responsibility, putting more energy into pushing the blame around than doing anything useful.

 

[Albion]

Are there in the U.S. government individual bureaucrats that are Democratic holdovers that would love nothing more than to damage Trump? Yeah, of course there are. Is there a concealed web of conspirators, malevolent permanent hidden shadow government? Rubbish. And I would add that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone without the help of Ted Cruz’s father.
- Charles Krauthammer, conservative columnist, Washington Post

- term was originally coined to refer to a relatively invisible state apparatus in Turkey "composed of high-level elements within the intelligence services, military, security, judiciary, and organized crime" and similar alleged networks in other countries including Egypt, Ukraine, Spain, Colombia, Italy, Israel, and many others.

Neither the opinions of various observers from left or right, nor the origin of the term itself mean much here.

But it is a mistake to think that the "deep state" refers simply to holdovers from a previous administration with mischief on their minds.

There are career figures in the vast federal bureaucracy who 1) think they know more than all the elected representatives of the people, 2) feel justified in doing something about it, and 3) may have been identified in the past with one or the other of the major parties, Democratic or Republican, but whichever it was, that doesn't mean much of anything now.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Higher standards are, or should be, expected of people who put themselves forward for leadership roles.

It's funny. I vaguely remember the right saying the same thing about 25 years ago when Clinton's various and sundry allegations of sexual assault, extramarital affairs, etc, were coming up. During that time, the right was told that the President is the President rather than a pastor or a moral ideal, people need to check their values at the door when they go to vote, etc.

It looks like the right finally took that advice. I don't understand why the other side isn't happy about that. Isn't this what they said they wanted all those years? Shouldn't they be congratulating themselves for winning the argument?

 

[Tom 1]

It's funny. I vaguely remember the right saying the same thing about 25 years ago when Clinton's various and sundry allegations of sexual assault, extramarital affairs, etc, were coming up. During that time, the right was told that the President is the President rather than a pastor or a moral ideal, people need to check their values at the door when they go to vote, etc.

It looks like the right finally took that advice. I don't understand why the other side isn't happy about that. Isn't this what they said they wanted all those years? Shouldn't they be congratulating themselves for winning the argument?

Maybe they should be? No interest here in what either party thinks about the other. The ability to take responsibility and engage in useful action rather than whining and casting blame when under pressure seems quite important in a leader, though. That said, it might be better for Europe not to have the US so involved, perhaps. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Albion]

It's funny. I vaguely remember the right saying the same thing about 25 years ago when Clinton's various and sundry allegations of sexual assault, extramarital affairs, etc, were coming up. During that time, the right was told that the President is the President rather than a pastor or a moral ideal, people need to check their values at the door when they go to vote, etc.

No, Clinton committed perjury and was punished for committing it. That is not just something to gripe about -- or excuse -- on theological grounds.

 

[timothyu]

it is the firmly established ‘deep state’ that prevents the US from being too easily derailed by outside influences.

The deep state is an outside influence (a new system) working and destabilizing from within. It takes money and manipulation. How else do you overtake a nation, let alone a world without the need for conventional military force.. They who control the purse strings control the world and I might add finance both sides when they have their puny wars.

 

[Tom 1]

The deep state is an outside influence (a new system) working and destabilizing from within. It takes money and manipulation. How else do you overtake a nation, let alone a world without the need for conventional military force..

Economics, usually. Cornering a market and putting a lot of cash into lobbying and related (less officially salubrious) activities.

 

[timothyu]

Do you really trust someone who is so ready to ditch his wife, twice, for a younger model?

Older would be better. They are already paper trained in the maturity department.

 

[Tom 1]

Older would be better. They are already paper trained in the maturity department.

Better would be a leader who understands loyalty and commitment. Clinton was a full on sleaze, but at least he didn’t ditch his Mrs.

 

[timothyu]

There are career figures in the vast federal bureaucracy who 1) think they know more than all the elected representatives of the people, 2) feel justified in doing something about it, and 3) may have been identified in the past with one or the other of the major parties, Democratic or Republican, but whichever it was, that doesn't mean much of anything now.

You forgot those who contribute the cash to both parties

 

[timothyu]

Clinton was a full on sleaze, but at least he didn’t ditch his Mrs.

Of course not. She wore the pants.

 

[timothyu]

Economics, usually. Cornering a market and putting a lot of cash into lobbying and related (less officially salubrious) activities.

And who supplies that cash? Who owns it?

 

[Tom 1]

And who supplies that cash?

Depends what the lobbying is for: People pushing an agenda by means of bought politicians represent the people who stand to make money from it, and so are happy to invest the necessary funds. Others lobby for foundations, special interest groups, and so on. But you know all of this I’m sure.

 

[timothyu]

But you know all of this I’m sure.

You are thinking too small. Who hold the rights to the concept of money

 

[thecolorsblend]

Maybe they should be? No interest here in what either party thinks about the other. The ability to take responsibility and engage in useful action rather than whining and casting blame when under pressure seems quite important in a leader, though. That said, it might be better for Europe not to have the US so involved, perhaps. Time will tell I suppose.

Spare me. Say whatever you want about America but we vote our leaders in and we vote them out. So far, we've never needed to depose anybody with a machine gun.

How about the Romanians?

 

[Tom 1]

Spare me. Say whatever you want about America but we vote our leaders in and we vote them out. So far, we've never needed to depose anybody with a machine gun.

How about the Romanians?

Yes, communism was a bit of a disaster. Who leads Romania however has less of an impact on the rest of the world, what happens politically in the US is news wherever you are. With Trump’s isolationist bent though, if he continues in power, it might start to matter less, which might not be a bad thing.