ShirleyFord said:
The irony of it all is that the amillennialist will use the same scriptures to say that these present times ARE the millennial kingdom of Christ.. strange isn't it..?
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ShirleyFord said:It is interesting to note that many of the events that are said to occur at the end of the millennium are also found in Revelation 19. Some examples of such are found as follows:
A great concluding battle.
The rescue/defence of the righteous.
The union of the Bride and the Bridegroom.
The fiery destruction of all the wicked/world.
The origin of the fire being God.
A general judgment.
But nowhere in Revelation 19 or Revelation 20 or Revelation 21 do we find it written that it will take Jesus 1000 years to complete His future Second Coming.
Shirley
Rafael said:To say that God cannot be King of a physical Kingdom, one might as well say that Jesus did not come in the flesh or even deny the physical existence they enjoy and live in. God has the power to do these things and why we would ever deny Him that power by spiritualizing away a physical Kingdom for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords escapes me??? He is God over the physical and the spiritual realms. We cannot deny the power of God, the Living breathing physical Word of God, and the word of all the prophets that spoke of the kingdoms of earth all falling to the last Kingdom that would be upon earth and prevail.
Daniel 2:44 "During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed; no one will ever conquer it. It will shatter all these kingdoms into nothingness, but it will stand forever.
45 That is the meaning of the rock cut from the mountain by supernatural means, crushing to dust the statue of iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. "The great God has shown Your Majesty what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its meaning is certain."
yeshuasavedme said:You are totally twisting Scripture.
The curse that God will not do again is the entire world flooded and destroyed by a flood.
The world that was destroyed was the 'age' before the flood of Noah.
Peter was speaking of the flood of Noah that deatroyed the world ', and Peter references that same flood and that same 'world' several times, being familiar with and quoting from the book of Enoch that was read by Believing Jews at the time of Christ, being included with the Septuagent that they read.
Markea said:Again...that IS the irony of it all Shirley.. amillennialists claim that we're ALREADY IN the millennial kingdom of Christ...using Revelation 20 to support their claims.. and yet the context of Revelation 19 & 20 is CLEARLY His future coming... not something that has happened in the past..
It is strange to say the least..although such is preterism and amillennialism.. strange stuff..
Markea said:Perhaps you completely miss the enormity of it parousia.. how that IT IS FUTURE..yet much of Christendom (including catholicism) views it in the preteristic sense...just as you do..
You need not take my word for it, take the word of God as it plainly declares by the mouth of at least three Apostles..
Peter says that the devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour..
Paul says that the god of this world has blinded (deceived) the minds of those that believe not... and he also says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood etc, but against principalities and powers, the rulers of darkness, spiritual wickedness in high places...
John says that the whole world lieth in wickedness..
If that's your idea of bound and unable to deceive, then so be it..
Who might want people to believe that satan is bound and unable to deceive..? Any ideas come to mind..?
Not according to Revelation 20 it isn't...
Markea said:Thanks for the article.. I have read this before although it doesn't convince me that it was not condemned as heresey..it practically seems to substantiate it more than anything..
Yes, after the Roman Catholic church took dominance, and adopted the amillennenial view that was espoused by Augustine, premillennialism faded for a time.I suppose that the real issue is that much of Christendom has embraced the doctrine of amillennialism..although I will agree that this does not mean that the opposite views were condemned..
There's a lot of articles like this.. and perhaps we'll never know for sure.. although the masses which speak for amillennialism are a pretty large crowd, and that voice is certainly still being heard today..
ShirleyFord said:First of all, I do not advocate the heretical view of preterism. Secondly, I have never said that the Second Coming of Christ is a past event.
Thirdly, as the Bible declares, the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming of Christ. There is not one Scripture I can find to prove such. If you have found any, will you please present those exact Scriptures?
Thanks!
Praise the Lord!ShirleyFord said:First of all, I do not advocate the heretical view of preterism.
Secondly, I have never said that the Second Coming of Christ is a past event.
Thirdly, as the Bible declares, the thousand years of Revelation 20 is not the Second Coming of Christ. There is not one Scripture I can find to prove such. If you have found any, will you please present those exact Scriptures?
ShirleyFord said:But in none of these 10 Scriptures where we find 'thousand years' do we one time find that the thousand years is the Second Coming of Christ.
Steve Petersen said:G-d could have created everything in an instant.
Psa 33:6-9 (KJV) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
But He created the Heavens and the Earth in six days.
Exo 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Day 1 - The beginning of creation
Gen 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Day 4 - The sun, a picture of Messiah
Gen 1:15-16 (KJV) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Mal 4:2 (KJV) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;.
Day 6 - Man
Gen 1:27 (KJV) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Day 7 - Sabbath was made holy, or separated (kadosh): a picture of the Messianic Kingdom
Gen 2:2 (KJV) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Psa 90:4 (KJV) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
2 Pet 3:8-10 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
1000 years = 1 day. 7 days = 7000 years from creation until the end of time
The Jewish Sages concluded that the creation week was a pattern of the history of the world
Talmud
R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day, and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day, meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.
The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. (Sanhedrin 97a-b)
This idea is also found in extra-biblical writings during the period just prior to and after the birth of Yeshua
The Epistle of Barnabas
"And even in the beginning of the creation he makes mention of the sabbath. And God made in six days the works of his hands; and he finished them on the seventh day, and he rested the seventh day, and sanctified it. Consider, my children what that signifies, he finished in six days. The meaning of it is this; that in six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end. For with him one day is a thousand years; as himself testifieth, saying, Behold this day shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, shall be accomplished. And what is that he saith, And he rested on the seventh day: he meanth this; that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the Wicked One, and Judge the ungodly; and shall change the sun and moon, and stars: then he shall gloriously rest in that seventh day (The Lost Books of the Bible, chp. 13:3-6, Bell Publishing Company, 1979 New York, p. 160-161)."
The Secrets of Enoch, Chapter 33
1And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that the first seven revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.
ShirleyFord said:Hence, the true origin of Premillennialism!
Thanks Steve.
parousia70 said:You have given no support for your contention that it is future other than your contention that it is future.
In contrast, I have shown how the Bible itself testifies of it's "then contemporary" fulfillment.
Since the apostles lived and wrote in the age that preceeded the one we live in, your argument is moot.
I NEVER said Satan was unable to decieve individuals today. Not once, EVER. Once again you attribute beliefs to me which I do not hold.
What I did say is that Satan no longer has the power to decieve NATIONS, just as scripture teaches.
You have done nothing to prove me wrong on that.
Contrary to your apparant assertion, unbelievers will NEVER share in Christ and the Church's victory over Satan.
Yeah, seeing that all nations are getting along so well.. I'm sure there's nothing to be alarmed over.. everything's just fine..Rather, who might want people to believe Satan has the power to decieve nations when he really dosen't?
Clearly you didn't even bother to read my previous post on the subject, for if you had, you'd have a lucid, point by point rebuttal. Instead you retreat to your "it's pointless to discuss this with preterists" diatribe......really, that line is tired.
Don't run away and hide, stand up for your beliefs. use the very scriptures I cited and show me why they don't mean what I contend.
FreeinChrist said:That the earthly reign will be 1000 years is not revealed until the vision was given to John.
That it involves the Second Coming of Christ is shown so clearly in the text of Rev. 19 - 20 I fail to see how one doesn't see it.
The Second Coming:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it {is} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes {are} a flame of fire, and on His head {are} many diadems; and He has a name written {on Him} which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13 {He is} clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white {and} clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THEN:
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Christ comes...beast and FP defeated......Satan chained and sealed in a pit for 1000 years.....those who were beheaded by the beast are "made alive" and reign with Christ for 1000 years ....then Satan is let out for a short time.
ShirleyFord said:Thanks FreeinChrist for your reply.
But as hard as I try, I cannot find in any of these Scriptures from Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 where it is written that the day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ, is a thousand years.
FreeinChrist said:Please explain that comment.
Dear Shirley,ShirleyFord said:Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's post. But it certainly appears to me that he was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. If that is not the case, I am truly sorry for my misunderstanding and would appreciate clarification.
Markea said:I'm truly sorry if you can't see a future prophetic aspect to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.. seriously.. That's sad...
And so you make the living and abiding word of God of no effect..
So all of the nations are not deceived at this time.. ok, that's pretty sad too.
Yeah, seeing that all nations are getting along so well.. I'm sure there's nothing to be alarmed over.. everything's just fine..
I'm sorry parousia.. it really isn't pointless.. it's just plain sad.. Sad that so much of Christendom has bought into the lies of catholicism... so much so that people would be persuaded that these present times are actually the glorious kingdom of Jesus Christ... the King of kings and Lord of lords...
It truly is sad my friend.. that people would attribute this present world to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ..
This present world... His Kingdom... ? ? ?
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