Is there proof God exist?

[dlamberth]

In all fairness, believing Love is Eternal would entail an existence that transcends the temporal.

I suspect that the Cosmic Christ image is all new to you. If your curious, we can dig deeper. If not, I'll just say a few things. Clearly God with in the Universe is not at all temporal. But to see that Truth, a person has to be able to look through Nature to see the Light of God with in. I think this also begs the question: Where do you see God?

As an aside, that Love you speak of, it's Universal. It's with in the essence of Creation itSelf. It's not a Christian only thing, you can see it in others of other spiritual traditions.

Yes I can also see the universe and know it is real in the temporal sense, but not in any eternal sense.

Dig deeper, and wider. Again, where is God seen? The term Hildegard von Bingen used is "the greening power of the Divine" when seeing the Light of God in Nature. Teilhard de Charden described the Body of Christ as extending through out the universe and comprises all things." And that "the Body of Christ is the one single thing that is being made in creation".

I like this piece from Hildegard of Bingen a lot, it's total Cosmic Christ and of someone who has internalized the experience of a living cosmology.
"Without the Word of God no creature has meaning.
God's Word is in all Creation, visible and invisible.
The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all Creativity.
The Word manifest in every creature.
Now this is h ow the spirit is in the flesh -- the Word is indivisible from God."

Thomas Aquinas:
Every Creature participates in some way the likeness of the Divine essence.

There's more, I'm trying to hurry so I can get to bed.

So respectfully, we can’t just make up new meanings for terms and expect to have any productive dialogue. The term “Christ” means the one true image of God sent by God. The issue is whether one believes that Love is Eternal or not. I believe that’s the issue of faith being proposed in the Gospel.

To be honest, the term "Cosmic Christ" is something I learned from Christians. I think it's way more than "believing" anything. It's more of having God as a "reality" and asking how is that experienced?

If you have any interest in learning more, read Matthew Fox's "The Coming of the Cosmic Christ".

 

[dlamberth]

I The term “Christ” means the one true image of God sent by God.

Christ to me IS "The Light of God". It's not an "image" and is beyond meaning or belief. It can be seen and experience, has life, vitality, is present in all creature as it encompass the whole of the Universe.

 

[dlamberth]

In all fairness, believing Love is Eternal would entail an existence that transcends the temporal.

Sorry, just one more thought. In the spiritual path I follow, we don't just "believe" Love. Believing is not enough. We live it. Love is the bases of what our path is. A Christian Mystic talked about "Following Love to the Heart of God". That's what we do.

So every time you talk about "believing" something, like Love, I go...you know, that's not enough! Where's Fire that comes from Love! There's way more than just "believing". Believing seems kind of wimpy compared to giving ones Body, Heart and Soul to something. So the path I'd take is rather than just believing Eternal Love, the act is to dive into it.

 

[holo]

The Truth.

I was hoping for an answer to my questions and/or counter arguments, but with that kind of response you must admit it looks as if you simply don't have any. I think my objections are reasonable, unless like I said I'm missing something. So again, how do you make sense of it? And if you can't make sense of it, what does that mean?

 

[holo]

Jesus came to bring life, not torture. We choose sin. God doesn't make you sin, you choose to. If God wasn't restraining the devil he would have destroyed all of us a long time ago. God wants everyone to be Saved. You decide for yourself what you want.

It doesn't look to me that the devil is very restrained at all.

And of course I want to be saved, if there is such a thing as salvation. The question for me is why I should believe Christianity to be true among all the other claims of truth. And there are also serious problems with the Christian worldview as far as I can tell.

 

[holo]

Ezekiel 33:10-20 NLT
“Son of man, give the people of Israel this message: You are saying, ‘Our sins are heavy upon us; we are wasting away! How can we survive?’ [11] As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die? [12] “Son of man, give your people this message: The righteous behavior of righteous people will not save them if they turn to sin, nor will the wicked behavior of wicked people destroy them if they repent and turn from their sins. [13] When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their righteous acts will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins. [14] And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. [15] For instance, they might give back a debtor’s security, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. [16] None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live. [17] “Your people are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right,’ but it is they who are not doing what’s right. [18] For again I say, when righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and turn to evil, they will die. [19] But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. [20] O people of Israel, you are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right.’ But I judge each of you according to your deeds.”

Are these verses meant for people today? It seems to say that if you do the right thing, you will live (as in not die and/or go to hell, I presume). But that seems to be contrary to the idea of salvation being by faith and grace.

 

[holo]

Respectfully, you are mistaken. Salvation was the fulfillment of a promise made by God to Abraham. Accordingly, God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

True, that may be the biblical claim (as in what the bible actually says), but the Christian claim is surely that anyone can repent at any time and be saved by faith.

Sin is no indicator of a free will. It's an indicator of corruption in the creation. Why would God allow corruption? To show the value of what is Holy.

I'm baffled as to why an almighty God must need to allow such extreme suffering in order to show the value of something else.

Good question. You should consider that the premise that you're reasoning upon is flawed, and therefore ends in a corrupt image of god... I believe the evidence shows that God is simply revealing Himself through a temporal state of existence so as to establish a knowledge of Who He is.

I can't help but think that God could do a much better job of manifesting himself. Whatever the reason is that he doesn't, the fact is that relatively few people get to know him. I don't see how it's compatible with omnipotence and love.

 

[AV1611VET]

And of course I want to be saved, if there is such a thing as salvation. The question for me is why I should believe Christianity to be true among all the other claims of truth. And there are also serious problems with the Christian worldview as far as I can tell.

As we're fond of saying:

Let go and let God.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Romans 8:20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

I agree that we have hope for a world unstained by sin and death. A world where everyone is right with God. The promise is for a better future.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

I think you need to clarify that with Love &Forgiveness. He has made it very clear that it's about getting to Heaven.


As I "experience" the Light of God, it flows with in the whole of the Universe. Where you see Christ as a single person named Jesus, for me the whole of the Universe is the body of God. In that sense Christ, maybe call it a Cosmic Christ, is an absolute "reality" for me. When everywhere a person looks, there God is, that's more than a "belief".

Love is Eternal and His Name is Jesus. I will one day be with Love Eternally. And yes that is my Goal to live in Love Eternally. I am not living for Jesus to die and not exist eternally in Love. I don't enjoy talking to people that ridicule me. I don't like arguing with people. If I wasn't concerned about Heaven in hell what is the point of me talking with you? There is none. Then I should just live my short life with people that love me and not with people that only want to spread hate.

1 Corinthians 15:12-34 NLT
But tell me this—since we preach that Christ rose from the dead, why are some of you saying there will be no resurrection of the dead? [13] For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless. [15] And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave. But that can’t be true if there is no resurrection of the dead. [16] And if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. [17] And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins. [18] In that case, all who have died believing in Christ are lost! [19] And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world. [20] But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died. [21] So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. [22] Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. [23] But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back. [24] After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. [25] For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. [26] And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. [27] For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) [28] Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere. [29] If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again? [30] And why should we ourselves risk our lives hour by hour? [31] For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, that I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what Christ Jesus our Lord has done in you. [32] And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those people of Ephesus— if there will be no resurrection from the dead? And if there is no resurrection, “Let’s feast and drink, for tomorrow we die!” [33] Don’t be fooled by those who say such things, for “bad company corrupts good character.” [34] Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all.

 

[childeye 2]

I suspect that the Cosmic Christ image is all new to you. If your curious, we can dig deeper. If not, I'll just say a few things. Clearly God with in the Universe is not at all temporal. But to see that Truth, a person has to be able to look through Nature to see the Light of God with in. I think this also begs the question: Where do you see God?

Quite frankly I see God everywhere and in all things. I see God in the stars and galaxies, the life on our planet from the smallest to the most complex, the water, the land air and sea. But I mostly see God in every person, and none more than the Christ Jesus. I am not sure how to interpret the meaning of a "Cosmic Christ image".

As an aside, that Love you speak of, it's Universal. It's with in the essence of Creation itSelf. It's not a Christian only thing, you can see it in others of other spiritual traditions.

Yes, Love is in the creation according to scripture and has been witnessed. After all, everything made was made through the Word of God. The Christ however means the true image of God sent by God. He is the Word made flesh according to scripture. I do not wish to leave any impression that would appear to conflate God with religion, but even so, it stands to reason that The Christ would necessarily be a Christian thing.

Dig deeper, and wider. Again, where is God seen? The term Hildegard von Bingen used is "the greening power of the Divine" when seeing the Light of God in Nature. Teilhard de Charden described the Body of Christ as extending through out the universe and comprises all things." And that "the Body of Christ is the one single thing that is being made in creation".

I like this piece from Hildegard of Bingen a lot, it's total Cosmic Christ and of someone who has internalized the experience of a living cosmology.
"Without the Word of God no creature has meaning.
God's Word is in all Creation, visible and invisible.
The Word is living, being, spirit, all verdant greening, all Creativity.
The Word manifest in every creature.
Now this is h ow the spirit is in the flesh -- the Word is indivisible from God."

Thomas Aquinas:
Every Creature participates in some way the likeness of the Divine essence.

There's more, I'm trying to hurry so I can get to bed.

There is truth to which you are alluding above. Certainly the creation was made by God for God, and the body of Christ is a new creation within the creation. I would only add the thought that the Light of God is more clearly defined when presented in the midst of a darkness.

To be honest, the term "Cosmic Christ" is something I learned from Christians. I think it's way more than "believing" anything. It's more of having God as a "reality" and asking how is that experienced?

If you have any interest in learning more, read Matthew Fox's "The Coming of the Cosmic Christ".

Well of course the term God is applied as an absolute in all such reasonings, but that is more a matter of proper definition of a term which makes Him a reality through a sound premise. The term faith comes into play where something cannot be known for certain. Hence the faith is that Love is Eternal and not that Love/God is a reality. The fact is that one cannot prove the Eternal existence, which gives occasion for doubt as pertains to the integrity or reliability of Love as an eternal existence. Hence every spirit that would denote a darkness upon the heart, or a corruption in the creation, would come through doubt or unfaith. And that is a central point of preaching the Gospel of the Christ crucified. It is a righteousness by grace through faith which quickens the soul.

 

[dlamberth]

If I wasn't concerned about Heaven in hell what is the point of me talking with you? There is none. Then I should just live my short life with people that love me and not with people that only want to spread hate.

Thanks for your concern. Please understand that personally I have zero concern about after death placement. For myself and in my Love of God, that sort of thing simply is not what it's about. The whole point for me is have God as a "reality" in life. End of story.

 

[childeye 2]

Christ to me IS "The Light of God". It's not an "image" and is beyond meaning or belief. It can be seen and experience, has life, vitality, is present in all creature as it encompass the whole of the Universe.

This becomes a problem when we take a word and change it's original use to mean something else. The term Christ is the Greek translation from the original Hebrew word Messiah, which translated to English becomes "anointed one". According to scripture, the Jewish people exist as God's chosen people with their own religion and specific ethnicity, to bring forth the Messiah. For one example, prophecy foretells that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people, but then would be accepted as the anointed one, by the rest of the world. In other words, only Jesus can be the Christ and the Holy Spirit testifies to only him as the son of God.

Please allow me to explain something about imagery. The term image of God in this case is meant to mean a portrayal or likeness of God. The point of this image being sent to portray His likeness, is that God chose this likeness and it was not manufactured in anyone else's imagination. It is God revealing Himself and this is how He chose to do it, through a profound display of divine Love upon a cross of torture. In my view, there is no higher image that can be imagined, which is why the Gospel has the power to change a man on the inside. For the image of God that we hold to be true determines our own character.

 

[childeye 2]

Sorry, just one more thought. In the spiritual path I follow, we don't just "believe" Love. Believing is not enough. We live it. Love is the bases of what our path is. A Christian Mystic talked about "Following Love to the Heart of God". That's what we do.

So every time you talk about "believing" something, like Love, I go...you know, that's not enough! Where's Fire that comes from Love! There's way more than just "believing". Believing seems kind of wimpy compared to giving ones Body, Heart and Soul to something. So the path I'd take is rather than just believing Eternal Love, the act is to dive into it.

Sounds like you're saying that actions speak louder than words. This is true. For after all the Love of Christ calls us to turn the other cheek and love even our enemies, but not for any personal recognition. But because Love is believed to be Eternal, and those that would harm you are misguided by those powers that would desire to see evil upon evil.

So although believing may sound wimpy to you, that doesn't preclude grace through faith. In other words, without acknowledging that righteousness comes by grace through faith, then God is just a placebo and there is no counter for vanity. Let me rephrase and articulate another angle of perception. If God wanted people to know that He is Who makes a person Holy, He must convince them that it is not of their own selves or personal effort, otherwise vanity fills the place of God and the heart is darkened. That is why the Light of God pertains to His Word in our hearts, while the Christ pertains to the quickening of that which was lost due to vanity.

 

[childeye 2]

True, that may be the biblical claim (as in what the bible actually says), but the Christian claim is surely that anyone can repent at any time and be saved by faith.

Words can be misunderstood, repeated and mischaracterized. The word repent for example is not actually something that can happen upon a whim. One has to be truly sorry for true repentance to occur. And faith is only understood by what the faith is in.

I'm baffled as to why an almighty God must need to allow such extreme suffering in order to show the value of something else.

I'd recommend reading the story of the prodigal son. And ask yourself why the Father did not stop the son from experiencing suffering.

I can't help but think that God could do a much better job of manifesting himself. Whatever the reason is that he doesn't, the fact is that relatively few people get to know him. I don't see how it's compatible with omnipotence and love.

As a Christian, the thought that he suffered a cross of torture for the sakes of those lesser than Himself, is the greatest manifestation of Himself. It also stops my complaining when the Holy Spirit recalls it to my mind.

Your questioning is leading to why some people won't believe in Him. You seem to be saying that a loving God with all power would not allow such suffering. Respectfully that is vanity speaking. Give some thought to the counter narrative, "Where was the thankfulness when there was no suffering?" Perhaps, by doing so you may come to an understanding about the enmity between mankind and God. Read the prodigal son.

 

[holo]

I'd recommend reading the story of the prodigal son. And ask yourself why the Father did not stop the son from experiencing suffering.

You can make a point that there was some value in the son experiencing what it actually meant to be free from his father. But a scenario like that is just a tiny piece of the big problem of suffering, and whatever justification we can find for that situation won't be applicable to when, say, a guy rapes his daughter or soldiers burn villages, or disease for that matter.

It reminds me of how people use the story about Job to draw out some lesson about God, meaning, free will, suffering and so forth. Notice how it's all about Job and what happened to him. What about his wife and children, who were killed because God and the devil were duking it out?

As a Christian, the thought that he suffered a cross of torture for the sakes of those lesser than Himself, is the greatest manifestation of Himself. It also stops my complaining when the Holy Spirit recalls it to my mind.

But for most people, that whole manifestation was in vain. People just don't know about it, or don't believe it, or believe some incorrect version of it. Again I really can't see a reason why God didn't make himself or his will abundantly clear to everybody, if that's in fact what he wants.

Give some thought to the counter narrative, "Where was the thankfulness when there was no suffering?" Perhaps, by doing so you may come to an understanding about the enmity between mankind and God. Read the prodigal son.

I don't have to make my children suffer for them to be grateful to me. And besides, is that thankfulness really worth literally billions of people dead, murdered, sick, heartbroken - or even in hell?

 

[childeye 2]

You can make a point that there was some value in the son experiencing what it actually meant to be free from his father. But a scenario like that is just a tiny piece of the big problem of suffering, and whatever justification we can find for that situation won't be applicable to when, say, a guy rapes his daughter or soldiers burn villages, or disease for that matter.

Respectfully, I believe you're being too dismissive here. I grant you that the suffering of the prodigal son is unworthy in comparison to soldiers burning a village, rape, disease etc.., but the issue remains that apart from God/empathy, bad things happen. We're seeing horrifying events happen where God is not, Light is not, where darkness prevails.

It reminds me of how people use the story about Job to draw out some lesson about God, meaning, free will, suffering and so forth. Notice how it's all about Job and what happened to him. What about his wife and children, who were killed because God and the devil were duking it out?

I must say that the lesson from Job is not about free will. I don't see that lesson anywhere in scripture, but of course that would depend upon what free will is meant to denote or imply.

No, I believe the lesson is that there are some who project a servitude towards God based upon a carnal vanity (Satan in this case), and there are those who project a servitude towards God based upon trust (Job). It's really a discerning of what is true worship and what is merely patronizing. As for what happened to his family, his wife did not die. She represents Satan goading Job to curse God. As for the children, sure it looks bad because it's supposed to. What was God supposed to do, just allow Satan to walk all over Him? Let's remember here that God, if He is indeed God, made everything and is therefore able to remake anything. In fact the faith of Abraham was that he went ahead and proceeded to kill his own beloved son knowing that since God gave him his son in the first place, so also could God could bring him back to life.

But for most people, that whole manifestation was in vain. People just don't know about it, or don't believe it, or believe some incorrect version of it. Again I really can't see a reason why God didn't make himself or his will abundantly clear to everybody, if that's in fact what he wants.

Your statement that for most people the manifestation is in vain because they don't know about it or don't understand it, or for whatever reason they don't get it, is actually explained in scripture. There's the parable of the sower for example. However it is clear that God did not make Himself abundantly clear because He reveals Himself according to His own purpose which implies that it has to be on His terms and is for a good reason. Again trust is a vital criteria as opposed to patronization, and He is sifting and molding through a manifold of methods.

I don't have to make my children suffer for them to be grateful to me.

Neither does God. I mean to say that God did not make the prodigal son suffer, it was circumstantial. Nonetheless he returned more thankful than before.

And besides, is that thankfulness really worth literally billions of people dead, murdered, sick, heartbroken - or even in hell?

Well that depends upon whether you think it was for the sake of God's vanity that he seeks thankfulness, or that because people who are unthankful eventually turn vain, which results in the horrific events of a dog eat dog world. Let's remember that there is also a hope of a resurrection where upon this world will be only a bad dream.

From reading your posts, I can surmise that you, as I have also done, as many do, ponder why anyone would believe in a God that has created a world with such horrific events. I say to you, that we are unthankful to God because without His Spirit of empathy bequeathed to us, we would not even care to ponder the question. God is Love, and without Love, we would not even care that we didn't have Love.

I hope you know that it seems easier to not believe in God at all. Somewhere in the subconscious, I think we are afraid because we fear that someday we may find ourselves despising His Word and loathe ourselves. We don't want to fail Him. In a sense, we are all Jobs and it is Satan telling us to curse God for the bad things that happen in this world. Or better yet, let's not even believe in God as existing as a Person. But if that is the case, how does that change any of the horrific events? It doesn't, which means we are already despising God in the first place, since we're using the pain that comes with Love, as a reason to say He doesn't exist.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is there proof God exist?

None that I am aware of.

Most arguments rely on forms of philosophical reasoning, and such philosophical arguments tend toward a generic theistic postulation.

For example Anselm's argument:

1. God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.
2. Real existence is inherently greater than conceptual existence.
3. God, therefore, must exist.

The Cosmological Argument of Scotus and Aquinas:

1. All things have an efficient cause.
2. An infinite regress is abhorrent to reason.
3. There must be a first or primal cause that is itself uncaused.

There are others, but these are the two I am (more-or-less) most familiar with.

Do I think the arguments work? I don't know; but what I would argue is that such arguments don't get us from non-belief to Christian belief. That is, even if the argument is sound the conclusion isn't that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob exists, and that Jesus Christ is His Son, etc. At best it only gets us to "Nature's God" or the God of the philosopher--what is, basically, a Deistic or generically theistic "God"--and even to call this "God" is a stretch since it is possible for such a thing to not be "God" in any sense as we might usually mean.

From a Lutheran perspective it could even be argued that the whole enterprise is inherently meaningless. As at best the philosopher can only get us so far as the Deus Absconditus, the Hidden God; God hidden behind the veil of His glory, with all the various omnis perhaps, but that's it. That, of course, is nothing special or helpful, as that isn't where faith exists.

It is only God manifest and revealed in Jesus Christ where faith exists; here is not the Hidden God, but the Revealed God (Deus Revelatus). God is met face-to-face in Jesus, and it is here that we can meet and know God; not in the terror of His glory but in the compassion, humility, and suffering of Jesus. It is here, and only here, that we meet God, not as the dread fire on the mountain, but as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[holo]

Respectfully, I believe you're being too dismissive here. I grant you that the suffering of the prodigal son is unworthy in comparison to soldiers burning a village, rape, disease etc.., but the issue remains that apart from God/empathy, bad things happen. We're seeing horrifying events happen where God is not, Light is not, where darkness prevails.

But the question remains: why? Must it be this way? Couldn't God have made things differently? Shouldn't he, if he is indeed almighty and all loving?

I must say that the lesson from Job is not about free will. I don't see that lesson anywhere in scripture, but of course that would depend upon what free will is meant to denote or imply.

No, I believe the lesson is that there are some who project a servitude towards God based upon a carnal vanity (Satan in this case), and there are those who project a servitude towards God based upon trust (Job). It's really a discerning of what is true worship and what is merely patronizing. As for what happened to his family, his wife did not die. She represents Satan goading Job to curse God. As for the children, sure it looks bad because it's supposed to. What was God supposed to do, just allow Satan to walk all over Him? Let's remember here that God, if He is indeed God, made everything and is therefore able to remake anything. In fact the faith of Abraham was that he went ahead and proceeded to kill his own beloved son knowing that since God gave him his son in the first place, so also could God could bring him back to life.

Of course you can believe that Job's wife (or any other innocent bystander) didn't really die, but as far as I can tell, that's not what the stories say, and not what most Christians believe either.

What was God supposed to do, you ask. Kill Satan, would be my suggestion.

Your statement that for most people the manifestation is in vain because they don't know about it or don't understand it, or for whatever reason they don't get it, is actually explained in scripture. There's the parable of the sower for example. However it is clear that God did not make Himself abundantly clear because He reveals Himself according to His own purpose which implies that it has to be on His terms and is for a good reason. Again trust is a vital criteria as opposed to patronization, and He is sifting and molding through a manifold of methods.

Whatever God's reasons for hiding himself from people, it shouldn't be a surprise that they don't believe.

Neither does God. I mean to say that God did not make the prodigal son suffer, it was circumstantial. Nonetheless he returned more thankful than before.
Well that depends upon whether you think it was for the sake of God's vanity that he seeks thankfulness, or that because people who are unthankful eventually turn vain, which results in the horrific events of a dog eat dog world. Let's remember that there is also a hope of a resurrection where upon this world will be only a bad dream.

Yes, that's an important point, the possibility of an afterlife or a new world where all the suffering is made up for. But that's sadly not what most Christians believe. They believe 1) that God is almighty and all loving, AND 2) that billions of people live, suffer, die and then live forever in hell. My point is that you can't hold both of those beliefs at the same time. They're fundamentally opposite.

From reading your posts, I can surmise that you, as I have also done, as many do, ponder why anyone would believe in a God that has created a world with such horrific events. I say to you, that we are unthankful to God because without His Spirit of empathy bequeathed to us, we would not even care to ponder the question. God is Love, and without Love, we would not even care that we didn't have Love.

I hope you know that it seems easier to not believe in God at all.

For me personally, losing faith was indeed a loss. I tried to hang on to it for years, trying to reconcile the opposing parts of the theology, or at least find some sort of evindence that God is the most reasonable explanation for whatever, but in the end I couldn't. Just so you don't think it's because I'm angry at God or something like that. Maybe I'll come to believe again some day, but I'm pretty sure I won't believe that God is both good and almighty, or that his highest wish is to have a relation with every person, because that's just clearly not the case. Maybe the deists are right in that some god created everything and then just stepped back.

What makes you say God is love?

Somewhere in the subconscious, I think we are afraid because we fear that someday we may find ourselves despising His Word and loathe ourselves. We don't want to fail Him. In a sense, we are all Jobs and it is Satan telling us to curse God for the bad things that happen in this world. Or better yet, let's not even believe in God as existing as a Person. But if that is the case, how does that change any of the horrific events? It doesn't, which means we are already despising God in the first place, since we're using the pain that comes with Love, as a reason to say He doesn't exist.

It doesn't change the horrific events, but it can make them less painful. Because you don't add the pain of failing to understand why God would allow it. It's just the way it is, there's no divine plan or purpose behind it, and to me that has turned out to be extremely comforting (to my surprise, because I always assumed losing faith would make everything seem pointless and hopeless).

 

[AV1611VET]

What was God supposed to do, you ask. Kill Satan, would be my suggestion.

And then what?

Some other angel would just take his place.