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Sheep is a metaphor. I already gave you my answer. Your answer was a dodge - you might as well as not answered.Are they just regular sheep prior to that?
Probably all three. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of world. And obviously we had to be born. There’s also a change at conversion.
I really don’t know where this hatred comes from. I’m asking questions based on your statements. And I answered your question. I’m not sure what type of response you wanted, but it was given in good faith.Sheep is a metaphor. I already gave you my answer. Your answer was a dodge - you might as well as not answered.
Back to this. Are they someone else’s sheep before following, or are they goats, as some assert?Someone becomes Jesus's sheep when they qualify by following Jesus - which is conversion.
Search the scripture and get back to me.Back to this. Are they someone else’s sheep before following, or are they goats, as some assert
What questions am I dodging?Back to what? You are dodging my questions.
Specificially question 401. Shown below.What questions am I dodging?
I say it is at conversion.I was wondering when do you see someone becoming "In Him" which is the phrase used in the Epistles? Is at conversion, birth, or from the foundation of the world?
Becoming "In Him" is one event - not three events. If you don't know when you became "In Him", then I don't know why you post so often on Soteriology.Probably all three. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of world. And obviously we had to be born. There’s also a change at conversion.
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In loveSpecificially question 401. Shown below.
I say it is at conversion.
If you don't know when you became "In Him", then I don't know why you post so often on Soteriology.
Good bye.,
If Paul was are in Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul would not have said this:just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4
You dismissed my previous answer, even though it was more thorough. So…If Paul was are in Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul would not have said this:
Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.And I don't think Paul was talking about their birth dates or else he would mention age.
How was your previous answer better? It used the word probably, was vague, and if anything it had becoming"In Him" as three events. Paul's statement in Romans 16:7 shows it as one event.You dismissed my previous answer, even though it was more thorough. So…
How about trying to have an actual conversation and ask for clarification?How was your previous answer better? It used the word probably and if anything it had becoming"In Him" as three events. Pauls statement in Romans 16:7 shows it as one event.
Ha, Ha. You are the one asking questions non-stop. You term it as "Cross-Examination".How about trying to have an actual conversation and ask for clarification?
None of this view junk-ola is scripture. Romans 16:7 indicates we are not "In Christ" from eternity past.Paul talks about it in Ephesians as if it was a done deal in the past. He also talks about it in temporal terms. So there’s a point of view issue. On one hand, from God’s point of view, it happened in eternity past. From our point of view it happened when we put our faith in Christ.
I don’t mind the questions, FWIW. I love to defend what I believe. I’m not afraid to be challenged.Ha, Ha. You are the one asking questions non-stop. You term it as "Cross-Examination".
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In loveNone of this view junk-ola is scripture. Romans 16:7 indicates we are not "In Christ" from eternity past.
I’m not sure of your reason for pointing this out.The whole book of Ephesians was written to particular individuals as much as it was written to saved Christians, who Paul identifies as the "faithful in Christ" in Ephesians 1:1. Ephesians 1:1-14 deals with the destiny of saved Christians.
When Calvinist talk about God's view and man's view, they frequently go to where two contradictory things are true at once like you did. The term for that is "fallacy". I don't believe in fallacies.just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4
It’s both.
The whole book of Ephesians was written to particular individuals as much as it was written to saved Christians, who Paul identifies as the "faithful in Christ" in Ephesians 1:1. Ephesians 1:1-14 deals with the destiny of saved Christians.
Because Ephesians 1:1-14 is about the destiny of saved Christians (the letter is addressed to THEM) and is not about individuals that God predestines to be saved Christians.I’m not sure of your reason for pointing this out.
Actually, we realize that two things can happen at once where two views are happening. For instanceWhen Calvinist talk about God's view and man's view, they frequently go to where two contradictory things are true at once. The term for that is "fallacy". I don't believe in fallacies.
Well, Paul sees it differently.Because Ephesians 1:1-14 is about the destiny of saved Christians (the letter is addressed to THEM) and is not about individuals that God predestines.
Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4
I see. He rewards good people.Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.
You are putting words in my mouth again. This is from Merriam-Websters:I see. He rewards good people.
I apologize then. Your post indicates that His choice of them being “in Him” from before the foundation of the earth is because they are faithful. Faithful people are those who have done something good.You are putting words in my mouth again. This is from Merriam-Websters:
put words in/into someone's mouth: to suggest that someone said or meant something that he or she did not actually say or mean
There are two thoughts about that. Some prefer to believe that everyone is born a goat and then decides to meet God's terms (i.e. accept Jesus into their heart) and become a sheep. Others believe that, as in nature, goats are born goats and cannot be genetically modified to become sheep and thus, those who are born sheep always will remain sheep. It becomes quite dicey when the theology supports a concept of goats becoming sheep, but then later becoming goats again, with the possibility of changing species back and forth at will.That’s why I didn’t want to jump the gun.
You said
Taking this at face value, this means that someone doesn’t become a sheep until conversion, correct?
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