We would also see a necessity of values in universe that is not designed since the resulting features of the universe are necessarily dependent on those values.
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Is there evidence of something beyond nature?
- Thread starter paul becke
- Start date
We would also see a necessity of values in universe that is not designed since the resulting features of the universe are necessarily dependent on those values.
bhsmte
Dizredux
Once
Of course there is order in the universe. That order could come from God, physical processes or a combination of both. The existence of order cannot falsify or support ID.
Dizredux
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
The fine tuning that we see in the values and necessity of those in not only the existence of the universe but intelligent life of this universe work together as a whole. Should the values be different we know that this universe could not exist nor intelligent life.
You would have to show how another universe would have this same makeup and the same consequences if the values were different. The scientists claim that another universe might exist with different values but not that they would support intelligent life.
If you propose that any universe would have very precise values and could support intelligent life.
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I want to make this very very clear... I was referring to the appearance of design in the universe and not actual design.
My point is that the APPEARANCE OF DESIGN is SUPPORTIVE of design.
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I have given quotes that show they do see design, I have made certain to not misrepresent them in that they do not feel it is actual design. I have not been dishonest at all.
Upvote
0
You have given quotes showing that it only appears to be designed, but that there is no evidence for actual design. Please try to accurately represent their position.
You misrepresent their position when you say that they see design.
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I make a reasoned and rational conclusion based on the scientific evidence based on my personal experience with God. If you wish to call it faith that is fine with me.
Upvote
0
bhsmte
Newbie
Well, if you took it a step further and actually listened to the people you quote, when they say they don't see evidence of ID, nor do they believe in ID, I would think, you are taking it beyond a rational and reasoned conclusion.
You see, you listen to them to the point of them stating; appearance, but then you disregard what these scientists say when they take it a step further, so I would call that pure faith.
I completely understand you have a strong need to convince yourself, you are being logical and reasoned in your conclusion. But if you were relying on factual logic and reason, you wouldn't need to rely on faith.
Upvote
0
You still don't get it, do you?
Randomly set values for constants would produce fine tuning since the resulting universe would necessarily require those constants.
A different universe would exist, and it would be just as fine tuned as this one since the resulting universe would be entirely dependent on those constants being exactly what they are.
Those universes could produce something different than what we see in this universe which means that those other universes would be just as finely tuned for their unique features as this one is.
Upvote
0
Your conclusion is nothing but the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You assume that the outcome seen in this universe was the goal.
Upvote
0
When you say something is supportive, you are saying that it is evidence. The appearance of design is not evidence of actual design. Please try to use words honestly.
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
That is simply untrue:
From Paul Davies Book "Cosmic Blueprint"..."There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all .. . It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe ... The impression of design is overwhelming."
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
What???? Yes, there is supportive evidence that design could be actual design. That is not dishonest.
Upvote
0
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
You make the assumption that there is no goal, that the appearance of design must be an illusion. To do this you ignore the elements in nature and our universe that do appear to be designed so point that finger right back to you.
Upvote
0
"Here's why. If a law is a truly exact mathematical relationship, it requires infinite information to specify it. In my opinion, however, no law can apply to a level of precision finer than all the information in the universe can express. Infinitely precise laws are an extreme idealisation with no shred of real world justification. In the first split second of cosmic existence, the laws must therefore have been seriously fuzzy. Then, as the information content of the universe climbed, the laws focused and homed in on the life-encouraging form we observe today. But the flaws in the laws left enough wiggle room for the universe to engineer its own bio-friendliness.
Thus, three centuries after Newton, symmetry is restored: the laws explain the universe even as the universe explains the laws. If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself."--Paul Davies
Paul Davies: Yes, the universe looks like a fix. But that doesn't mean that a god fixed it | Comment is free | The Guardian
Upvote
0
I make no such assumption. You claim that there is a goal, so it is up to you to present evidence for that claim. You have not done so.
The top scientists say that it is an illusion. Doesn't that meet your criteria?
False. It is up to you to evidence actual design, which you still have not done.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
