Is There Any Reason to Doubt Evolution If Faith Is Not A Factor?

Paul of Eugene OR

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The young earth creationists will also deluge a man with "physical evidence"; but all such "physical evidence" (from both camps) is merely data that must be interpreted. Interpret the data through your paradigm and you will have physical evidence of your paradigm. This is how it works. This is why young earth creationists have "sufficient evidence" and this is why old earth evolutionists have "sufficient evidence" when both really only have illusory evidence emergent from their own paradigm superimposed upon the raw data.

And yet you have useless little toes.

You have been seduced for to long by the "alternate truths" paradigm. The truth of evolution has been scientifically established, and that's that.



I'm not doubting for religious reasons. My doubt is coming from knowledge of the incompetency of the reasoning of men,.

And your logic on this subject is one of the example of the incompetency of the reasoning of men. Biological facts that establish evolution in new, interesting ways keep showing up. The evidence is overwhelming for evolution. And much of the evidence is visible to us laymen. It's right there for everyone to see, except those who refuse to see it. Like shin splints on horses, left over from when their ancestral species had three toes. Like dew claws on cats, left over from when the paws of an ancestral species had digits that could grasp.
 
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mohmed

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أَفَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَقَالَ لَأُوتَيَنَّ مَالًا وَوَلَدًا (77) Hast thou then seen the (sort of) man who rejects Our Signs, yet says: "I shall certainly be given wealth and children?"
أَطَّلَعَ الْغَيْبَ أَمِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا (78) Has he penetrated to the Unseen, or has he taken a contract with (Allah) Most Gracious?
كَلَّا ۚ سَنَكْتُبُ مَا يَقُولُ وَنَمُدُّ لَهُ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ مَدًّا (79) Nay! We shall record what he says, and We shall add and add to his punishment.
وَنَرِثُهُ مَا يَقُولُ وَيَأْتِينَا فَرْدًا (80) To Us shall return all that he talks of and he shall appear before Us bare and alone.
وَاتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ آلِهَةً لِّيَكُونُوا لَهُمْ عِزًّا (81) And they have taken (for worship) gods other than Allah, to give them power and glory!
كَلَّا ۚ سَيَكْفُرُونَ بِعِبَادَتِهِمْ وَيَكُونُونَ عَلَيْهِمْ ضِدًّا (82) Instead, they shall reject their worship, and become adversaries against them.
أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّا أَرْسَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ تَؤُزُّهُمْ أَزًّا (83) Seest thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury?
فَلَا تَعْجَلْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۖ إِنَّمَا نَعُدُّ لَهُمْ عَدًّا (84) So make no haste against them, for We but count out to them a (limited) number (of days).
يَوْمَ نَحْشُرُ الْمُتَّقِينَ إِلَى الرَّحْمَٰنِ وَفْدًا (85) The day We shall gather the righteous to (Allah) Most Gracious, like a band presented before a king for honours,
وَنَسُوقُ الْمُجْرِمِينَ إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ وِرْدًا (86) And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-
لَّا يَمْلِكُونَ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا (87) None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.
وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًا (88) They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
لَّقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئًا إِدًّا (89) Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
تَكَادُ السَّمَاوَاتُ يَتَفَطَّرْنَ مِنْهُ وَتَنشَقُّ الْأَرْضُ وَتَخِرُّ الْجِبَالُ هَدًّا (90) At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
أَن دَعَوْا لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ وَلَدًا (91) That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
وَمَا يَنبَغِي لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا (92) For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
إِن كُلُّ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا آتِي الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَبْدًا (93) Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
لَّقَدْ أَحْصَاهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدًّا (94) He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
وَكُلُّهُمْ آتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَرْدًا (95) And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ سَيَجْعَلُ لَهُمُ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وُدًّا (96) On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love.
فَإِنَّمَا يَسَّرْنَاهُ بِلِسَانِكَ لِتُبَشِّرَ بِهِ الْمُتَّقِينَ وَتُنذِرَ بِهِ قَوْمًا لُّدًّا (97) So have We made the (Qur´an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.
وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُم مِّن قَرْنٍ هَلْ تُحِسُّ مِنْهُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ أَوْ تَسْمَعُ لَهُمْ رِكْزًا (98) But how many (countless) generations before them have We destroyed? Canst thou find a single one of them (now) or hear (so much as) a whisper of them?
 
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Resha Caner

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My question is: if belief in various interpretations of scripture were not a factor, does any reason exist to doubt evolution on evidential grounds?

Per Descartes, there is always a reason to doubt. It then becomes an issue of whether one has enough interest to find that reason and what purpose drives that interest.

All sciences rest upon assumptions.

With respect to mechanics, it was a near certainty I would come to question those assumptions because I work with that science on a daily basis as part of my job. With respect to evolution, it was much less certain because I have little interest in biology for biology's sake. It was the religious debates over evolution that drew my attention to the subject.

I don't see that as an innate problem.
 
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Tetra

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My question is: if belief in various interpretations of scripture were not a factor, does any reason exist to doubt evolution on evidential grounds? I ask this question because many proponents of creation/ID claim that their theories offer a better explanation of the evidence, implying that faith based considerations have (at least for the moment) been suspended in their analyses.

So my question is directed at those who think that on the grounds of the evidence alone, the theory of evolution fails as an adequate description of material reality. But, would you have been led to these conclusion had faith NOT been a motivating factor to begin with?

If you believe that faith should serve as the starting point for interpreting reality, responding to this question will probably waste both our time. I am interested in talking here with those that think a case can be made against evolution based solely on the evidence.
Of course, BUT, it depends what we are talking about in regards to evolution

I think there are a couple issues that I struggle with.

Specifically, speciation as it's not directly observable.

and...

Allele frequency being observable, still wouldn't explain how new mutations come about. We can only provide a hypothesis as to how they come about, without actually being able to prove the hypothesis.
 
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dmmesdale

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Current population stats better fit the Noah scenario then the alternative of humans being here for 200 K years with a seed population of 10 K originating out of Africa. Since 1804 the numbers have doubled exponentially three times from 1 to 2 to 4 to 8 bil in approx 2020. 200 + years of population data shows an overall growth with cannot be extrapolated back 200,000 years. The numbers go thru the roof.

The Noah scenario shows 3 couples around 4500 years ago. That is six doubled exponentially 30 times exceeds our current population of 7.5 bil. That is a doubling every 150 years or an overall, not constant, growth rate of around .48% by the rule of 70. Also, there is numerous accounts of an ancient flood so it is evidence based.

World Population by Year - Worldometers

1804 1 bil
1927 2 bil 123 yrs
1975 4 bil 48 yrs.
2020 8 bil 45 yrs Est since we are at 7.5 bil and growing.
 
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Thedictator

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My question is: if belief in various interpretations of scripture were not a factor, does any reason exist to doubt evolution on evidential grounds? I ask this question because many proponents of creation/ID claim that their theories offer a better explanation of the evidence, implying that faith based considerations have (at least for the moment) been suspended in their analyses.

So my question is directed at those who think that on the grounds of the evidence alone, the theory of evolution fails as an adequate description of material reality. But, would you have been led to these conclusion had faith NOT been a motivating factor to begin with?

If you believe that faith should serve as the starting point for interpreting reality, responding to this question will probably waste both our time. I am interested in talking here with those that think a case can be made against evolution based solely on the evidence.

First the Math does not work for evolution, you need 1000's of trillions of years for all the various traits in all of the various species that lived on earth both plant and animals to be done by random selection. you can believe in Math or evolution, but not both.

#2 The Cambridge explosion refutes evolution

#3 The development of proteins by means of random selection would not even take by 1000 to 107 power. That means you could take apart the entire Milky Galaxy one Atomic Adam at a time and sent it to the other side of the universe moving one foot a minute. That is just one protein you need at least 20 to create a cell. Again the Math does not ad up.
 
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Thedictator

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But the theory of evolution remains the only plausible explanation of the observed diversity of live. It explains all of the scientific evidence on hand and is contradicted by none of it. That's as good as it gets in science. And except for an eccentric subset of Evangelical Protestant believers, it does not rule out a Creator.

Your wrong, there is a mountain of scientific evidence that refutes the theory of evolution that scientists don't want anyone to know about. The theory of evolution is solely based on Random natural selection (RNS) RNS in it's definition can not have a Creator.
 
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Speedwell

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Your wrong, there is a mountain of scientific evidence that refutes the theory of evolution that scientists don't want anyone to know about. The theory of evolution is solely based on Random natural selection (RNS) RNS in it's definition can not have a Creator.
Have you got a source for any of that?
 
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Speedwell

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Yes try any science textbook.
If it's information that scientists don't want us to know about, why would it be in a science textbook?
In any case, there is no science textbook which asserts that evolution denies the need for a creator--because it doesn't-- but even if it was true it would be a faith-based reason for rejecting evolution and not pertinent to the discussion.
What else have you got?
 
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Thedictator

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The definition of Random natural selection does, also any true Evolutionary scientist would tell you that Evolution by definition can not have a creator or any form of intelligence. If it has intelligence then it is the theory of Intelligent design not Evolution.
 
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Thedictator

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If it's information that scientists don't want us to know about, why would it be in a science textbook?
What else have you got?

I gave three major problems with Evolution, that can be found in Textbooks in my first post on here.
You may want to look at that post.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Of course, BUT, it depends what we are talking about in regards to evolution

I think there are a couple issues that I struggle with.

Specifically, speciation as it's not directly observable.

and...

Allele frequency being observable, still wouldn't explain how new mutations come about. We can only provide a hypothesis as to how they come about, without actually being able to prove the hypothesis.

New mutations are not a mystery. Just another error in the duplication process is all it takes. They mystery would be if there were NEVER mutations. By way of anology, nobody wonders why there are unintended noises on audio tapes. Or why there are, sometimes, car crashes instead of safe journeys.
 
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Tetra

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New mutations are not a mystery. Just another error in the duplication process is all it takes. They mystery would be if there were NEVER mutations. By way of anology, nobody wonders why there are unintended noises on audio tapes. Or why there are, sometimes, car crashes instead of safe journeys.
Maybe I didn't explain properly, I have no issues with information being lost in allele frequency, as in genetic drift.

So when you look at short winged swallows for example:
Are Birds Evolving to Avoid Cars? | Smart News | Smithsonian

Note though, the information for short wings already existed within the gene pool. I guess my issue would be if there was the claim that new information was added to a gene pool without attributing it to anything.
 
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mohmed

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If it's information that scientists don't want us to know about, why would it be in a science textbook?
In any case, there is no science textbook which asserts that evolution denies the need for a creator--because it doesn't-- but even if it was true it would be a faith-based reason for rejecting evolution and not pertinent to the discussion.
What else have you got?
please
 
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mohmed

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Maybe I didn't explain properly, I have no issues with information being lost in allele frequency, as in genetic drift.

So when you look at short winged swallows for example:
Are Birds Evolving to Avoid Cars? | Smart News | Smithsonian

Note though, the information for short wings already existed within the gene pool. I guess my issue would be if there was the claim that new information was added to a gene pool without attributing it to anything.
please i want helping why they say that Jesus or Eesa is the Son of God?? tell me pleace
 
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