Is there an Atheist preference for the Democratic party going on here?

rjs330

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Personally speaking, I'd judge the ancestors. Blaming the children for the sins of their fathers has always seemed to be a nonsensical idea.

Oh, wait...

Then why does the left do it continuously?

And if that's aimed at the Christian faith it's just a good example of what you don't understand. Once again I point to the gospels and the teaching of Jesus. You will not find that he judges you because of what your grandad did.
 
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Bradskii

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Then why does the left do it continuously?

And if that's aimed at the Christian faith it's just a good example of what you don't understand. Once again I point to the gospels and the teaching of Jesus. You will not find that he judges you because of what your grandad did.

The left does it? I'd be keen on some examples.

And again, we aren't talking about Jesus, but his father. Who was fond of punishing children for the evils of their parents. From the garden of Eden, through the Flood and the massacre of the Amaleks.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Hello Ana,

I'm sorry for bringing this all up. Don't worry about it. Of course you are allowed to make whatever threads/posts you want, and of course you don't need to explain yourself to me.

I was just being open about my perceptions (rightly or wrongly). I can see you are posting on other topics now as well. Don't worry about me, perhaps I was being overly sensitive. I'm not used to hearing people in a white dominated country complain about all the prejudice against whites. As you can tell by that last sentence I still haven't completely got my head around it. But that is my problem, not yours.

Well...there's that nuanced argument. Sometimes it's mere prejudice....sometimes it's systemic oppression.

I'm not used to having to consider there's an entire party of racists who would enact policies to deny white children job opportunities, education opportunities, etc.

If you'd have asked me ten years ago that people would literally adopt the exact same beliefs about how "black people work harder than whites" that southern plantation slave masters used to justify slavery....I'd have said no way.

Apparently I greatly over estimated some people.

Before you go....if you'd be ever so kind as to answer one question....since I answered all of yours, sometimes repeatedly....

You mentioned that you were against affirmative action....and I wouldn't have guessed that based on our conversations.

Why? I don't think it's necessarily a bad policy...perhaps with some fine-tuning it can be improved. It's played a significant role in the creation of a larger black and latino middle class since the 80s. I'm aware of the downsides....but I'm curious why you would be against it?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Personally speaking, I'd judge the ancestors. Blaming the children for the sins of their fathers has always seemed to be a nonsensical idea.

Oh, wait...

I tend to agree....though I must say I'm surprised.

I always thought you were in the "pro-reparations" crowd.
 
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Ana the Ist

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And I never had slaves not did I take over land from the Native Americans either.

Did you?

I'm literally 2 generations away from some of the smallest towns and poorest people I've ever seen....but that's not really important.

We're all thrown into the world without any ability to choose the circumstances that we grow up in.

Apparently, some see this as not only a problem....but one that's potentially correctable.

Not only have I had to reevaluate the merits of a political group....I've begun considering the merits of a democratic republic. It's nice to let people vote...but only if they have some idea what they are voting for.

It doesn't appear that they do....nor do they seem to think it matters.
 
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Ana the Ist

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While there are exceptions among some who want to merely vilify, in general, the language of privilege has nothing to do with the sins of one's ancestors; but rather the systems of power currently in place which benefit some and disadvantage others.

If you can point out the flaws in the system....I'd be right there with you advocating for their repair.

However, this is the same claim leveled at the police for at least 10 years now....and they've adopted every suggestion people saw as an answer....from implicit bias training, to bodycams, to actually defunding the police in some heavily liberal cities.

If everything you've advocated for has failed....why do you still think you understand the problem?

Because the results of these attempts to fix whatever problem you imagine exists has resulted in the devastation of the communities people claimed they wanted to help.

At the very least, you should consider not attempting to help any further. People are getting killed from all this help.

I'm not guilty for what my white colonizing ancestors did, but I do benefit from systems of power which privilege me in ways that I am frequently unaware of.

If you're unaware of them....how do you know they exist?

Conversely, there are privileges I don't experience.

And that's the problem. If you can recognize that you lack some privileges that others believe you have....these privileges aren't very accurate at describing reality.

Privilege and social expectations are calcified in the very bones of culture.

Didn't you just say that you don't really get the "male privilege" others expect you would have benefitted from?

And calling those into question frequently, history shows, don't go over well. Socrates was put to death for "corrupting the youth",

Who exactly is Socrates in this analogy?


our spiritual mothers and fathers were fed to lions and nailed to crosses because we dared to challenge the norms of Roman society, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated.

The powers and principalities always like to maintain a status quo that benefits them. It doesn't matter if one is white, or black, or fat, or skinny, or Christian, or atheist, or Muslim, or Jew--power craves power. As Christians this should be obvious to us, because we recognize the fallen nature and sinfulness of this present age.

How cynical....who can you trust then?

What is strange is for a Christian to defend the powers and principalities, merely because they benefit from it.

How can you assume he benefits from it?

Your own words above make it clear that's not always the case.

The way of Christ calls us to take up our cross and die.

-CryptoLutheran

Ironically, despite my heretical affliction....the Christian right only holds me responsible for myself.

The Christian left however....seems to imagine I have some unpaid debt to atone for.

I think I have a better explanation....

Simple people prefer simple answers. Give someone a target to lay the blame upon and they never have to consider difficult questions.
 
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stevil

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I'm not used to having to consider there's an entire party of racists who would enact policies to deny white children job opportunities, education opportunities, etc.
If you are talking about the Democratic party, I don't consider there to be any truth in what you are saying. I expect in USA that white children today generally have more opportunities than minorities and this would be evidenced by the respective employment rates and education rates by demographics.

You mentioned that you were against affirmative action....and I wouldn't have guessed that based on our conversations.

Why? I don't think it's necessarily a bad policy...perhaps with some fine-tuning it can be improved. It's played a significant role in the creation of a larger black and latino middle class since the 80s. I'm aware of the downsides....but I'm curious why you would be against it?
It can create problems.
For example, if a specific race don't have to have as good grades to be a doctor, therefore it is easier for them to become a doctor than other races. A consequence of this is that the public may not then trust doctors of that race because they might be perceived to be lesser qualified. They might then seek to avoid doctors of that race.
 
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Ana the Ist

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My point is that there are lots of threads about racism against whites but none at all about racism against minorities and non whites.

I can easily point out threads about racism towards minorities and non-whites.

I don't believe you've actually failed to see them.


As my subtitle suggested these were you pointing out what you thought were bad black people or bad black organisations.

Which is called goalpost shifting. You didn't have the great number of threads you based your perceptions on....

Your claim was that I overly posted about racism towards whites.

I'm just keeping you honest here. I asked for evidence, and the post where you gave it....you included non-evidence.

I have not seen any threads that you have created about bad white people or bad white organisations.

I've answered this perhaps 3 or 4 times now....

You clearly don't want to address my response. I'm not going to repeat the same answers again.

Because I can only assume you aren't seriously interested in a discussion. You want affirmation for your biases....or possibly validation for this performance.

My perception is that you are against racism as long as the racism is on whites, and against bad people and bad organisations as long as those people or organisations are beacons for black subjugation, and I have provided the evidence as asked for.

Your perceptions are wrong. I even pulled a quote from one of your examples that states my position clearly...and it contradicts your perceptions. I can easily pull clear examples of racism from my threads....because it's stated openly. I don't have to assume racism is happening or take it on faith. I can provide examples....it's spoken out loud.

I won't be congratulating you on your new dogmatic beliefs. They are vile.

Here's the main difference between us I think....

You abandon all the critical thinking and reasoning that you apply to god when considering other topics. I don't.

You see a disparity....and hear an explanation that's emotionally satisfying....your peers are repeating it....who needs evidence? I'm sure you're familiar with the "god of the gaps" argument....you now believe in a "racism of the gaps argument". You don't have any laws or policies to point to....you don't have any significant evidence for your beliefs at all. You've accepted them on faith...by self proclaimed authorities. A disparity displayed as a problem....an explanation of racism taken on faith. You're even told what it is forbidden for you to question....and you obey just like you were sitting in a pew.

It's easier to just go along with the rest of the crowd....isn't it? It may not be honest, may not be true, and there's certainly nothing brave about it. I think some people simply want the safety of numbers and feel good about themselves when they are told they have some moral authority.

I don't accept such things on faith. I don't need to. I'm not seeking approval or group membership. They don't have anything to offer me.

Your are not interested in my opinion or perception so I have no idea why we are still talking on this matter. This is the last post from me on this.

You aren't actually interested in dialogue....if you were, you'd address my answers instead of repeating your questions as if you couldn't read my responses.

We can discuss the issue...but instead of that...you've decided to moralize and attack my character. I can only assume that is because you aren't able to defend this position of unearned moral righteousness that you feel entitled to for your faith. That's an assumption though...and subject to revision should any contradictory evidence reveal itself.
 
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Ana the Ist

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If you are talking about the Democratic party, I don't consider there to be any truth in what you are saying. I expect in USA that white children today generally have more opportunities than minorities and this would be evidenced by the respective employment rates and education rates by demographics.

You seem to be conflating two different ideas...racism and opportunities.

Not all racism involves any opportunities....one could spread a racist belief attached to no opportunities. Disparities in opportunities can occur without any racism.

Are we discussing racism or not?

I don't want to assume you're making the argument it sounds like you're making....

But it seems like you expect white people to suffer racial discrimination and the loss of wealth, opportunities, and success.....until they've suffered enough to the point where they have been oppressed in the manner they have oppressed others in the past.

It's bothering you that they won't accept racial discrimination and hardship quietly.

Is that what you're claiming?

Because if it isn't....why wouldn't I point out racial discrimination against whites immediately? Why wouldn't I point out that this administration is seeking to treat whites as less than non-white US citizens? Why should I ever be expected to accept the sort of Jim Crow nonsense we rejected in the past?

It can create problems.
For example, if a specific race don't have to have as good grades to be a doctor, therefore it is easier for them to become a doctor than other races. A consequence of this is that the public may not then trust doctors of that race because they might be perceived to be lesser qualified. They might then seek to avoid doctors of that race.

Sure....and oddly enough, I read an article concerned about the lower standards of performance currently applied in medical degree programs not long ago.

Did you read the same article?
 
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Bradskii

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I tend to agree....though I must say I'm surprised.

I always thought you were in the "pro-reparations" crowd.

I've no problem in reparations. The Brits took Australia as they did with the US. And the Spanish with South America. And...the list goes on. And you and I have personally benefitted from the actions of the Brits. I don't agree with what they did or at least how they did it. But what they did means that I'm now sitting on a piece of rather expensive real estate that I own when it actually belongs to the Gadigal people who were here a few tens of thousands of years before I wandered over (I say 'belong' but they wouldn't use that term. They would say that they were looking after it).

There was an official apology for past wrongs written in 2008 and signed by the then PM, Kevin Rudd:

I move:

That today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.

We reflect on their past mistreatment.

We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations—this blemished chapter in our nation’s history.

The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia’s history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.

We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians.

We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country.

For the pain, suffering and hurt of these Stolen Generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry.

To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.

And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry.

We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.

For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.

We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians.

A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again.

A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity.

A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have failed.

A future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility.

A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia

Apology to Australia's Indigenous Peoples

I admit to getting a little emotional reading it. It was a long time coming...but it was a step in the right direction. And now there's move to give a voice to the original inhabitants in parliament. We've still got a long way to go.

So yeah, I'm pro-reparation.
 
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stevil

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You seem to be conflating two different ideas...racism and opportunities.

Not all racism involves any opportunities....one could spread a racist belief attached to no opportunities. Disparities in opportunities can occur without any racism.

Are we discussing racism or not?
I know you don't believe in systemic racism, but I do, and this ties these two things together under the broader concept of "racism"

It seems for you the problem is blatant racism, for me the problem is inequalities (with regards to race demographics) over many aspects within society.
If you get rid of all the things that you consider to be blatant racism regarding government policies, hiring practices etc, you will probably end up with a worse off society with greater inequalities.
I say probably, because it seems these things you complain about are put in place to address the existing inequalities.


Sure....and oddly enough, I read an article concerned about the lower standards of performance currently applied in medical degree programs not long ago.

Did you read the same article?
No, I didn't read that article. My example is something that was happening in a different country decades ago.
 
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stevil

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Your claim was that I overly posted about racism towards whites.

I'm just keeping you honest here. I asked for evidence, and the post where you gave it....you included non-evidence.
I understand you are discounting some of it, but I still include it as strong and relevant evidence.
We are in disagreement on this.

Anyway, I don't want to keep this discussion going on this topic. It is upto you what you want to post on, it is not my decision to make.

You abandon all the critical thinking and reasoning that you apply to god when considering other topics. I don't.
This is your arrogance and ego speaking here. You think you are better than others and so you refuse to listen and refuse to understand.
Anyway, I don't want to be talking about you anymore.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I've no problem in reparations. The Brits took Australia as they did with the US. And the Spanish with South America.

Except for a small nation called Brazil, sure....that's the short version.

And...the list goes on. And you and I have personally benefitted from the actions of the Brits. I don't agree with what they did or at least how they did it.

I don't know how well people actually understand that period, how it happened, and what was done....but ok.

As for me, I don't even judge the behaviors of those in the past by some moral standard. I could point out some of the rare outliers of behavior....but what they did is basically what all of mankind did throughout all of history.

Most of the unusual things came after their nations were founded.

But what they did means that I'm now sitting on a piece of rather expensive real estate that I own when it actually belongs to the Gadigal people who were here a few tens of thousands of years before I wandered over (I say 'belong' but they wouldn't use that term. They would say that they were looking after it).

Really? A few 10s of thousands of years huh?

I sometimes forget....You're in Australia, right?

There was an official apology for past wrongs written in 2008 and signed by the then PM, Kevin Rudd:

That's nice....my government has issued apologies in the past, even recent past, to various groups for various stuff.

Seems a little hollow but better than nothing.

I move:

That today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.

We reflect on their past mistreatment.

We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations—this blemished chapter in our nation’s history.

I'm gonna guess the Stolen Generations refers to some attempt to bring the Indigenous to a similar level of social integration as everyone else.

The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia’s history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.

So....gonna finish that social integration?


We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians.

We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country.

For the pain, suffering and hurt of these Stolen Generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry.

To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.

And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry.

We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.

For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.

We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians.

A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again.

A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity.

So.....social integration?

A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have failed.

Uh oh.

A future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility.

A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia

Apology to Australia's Indigenous Peoples

I admit to getting a little emotional reading it. It was a long time coming...but it was a step in the right direction. And now there's move to give a voice to the original inhabitants in parliament. We've still got a long way to go.

So yeah, I'm pro-reparation.

I don't claim to know what your government intends to do....I've heard things....I don't want to make guesses though.

Some of those things I've heard though....I would expect them to collapse your nation eventually.
 
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Bradskii

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Really? A few 10s of thousands of years huh?

I'm gonna guess the Stolen Generations refers to some attempt to bring the Indigenous to a similar level of social integration as everyone else.

Yeah, they've been around a while. If you think of how long they've been here as a year, the rest of us arrived literally yesterday.

And what we did is similar to what was done to Native Americans:

A century of trauma at U.S. boarding schools for Native American children

And integration? There was none. Because they were ignored. They aren't now. I was at my grandson's school last week waiting for a class to begin and just looking around for a few minutes. There's a small plaque at the entrance recognising that the school is on tribal land and paying respect to past, present and future tribal leaders. It's not uncommon to see that. Or hear it at a public event or a sports game. And there was a map of Australia in the classroom showing all the tribal areas.

It's changing.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I know you don't believe in systemic racism, but I do, and this ties these two things together under the broader concept of "racism"

I know....we've been over it. The racism of the gaps argument. Can't explain the gap....can't question why or how it got there....insert racism as the answer without evidence.

It's no different than a Christian telling me that I need an explanation for what happens after death.....or asks how the universe began....and inserts God when I tell him I don't know.

It seems for you the problem is blatant racism, for me the problem is inequalities (with regards to race demographics) over many aspects within society.

I'm going to guess you mean equality of outcomes....not a fair process of opportunities.

If you get rid of all the things that you consider to be blatant racism

That I consider?

I'd be really surprised if you didn't consider those things blatant racism.

If the person being discriminated against was black....for example, in the farm loans article.....instead of white, wouldn't you consider this blatantly racist? Aren't these racist policies and practices the very causes of whatever you consider "systemic racism"?

If you have a policy that says "give x to this race but never to that other race"....you don't consider that a racist policy?

regarding government policies, hiring practices etc, you will probably end up with a worse off society with greater inequalities.

What do you mean by greater inequalities?

You're advocating for inequalities. If someone is denied a job because of their skin color and someone else isn't....that's an inequality. That's an unfair process.

You would just be trading one kind of inequality for another and I'm not sure where you think that endeavor ends.

I say probably, because it seems these things you complain about are put in place to address the existing inequalities.

I'd consider the fact that in any space, industry, team, or anything where white people are underrepresented....nobody really seems to care about these inequalities.

In fact...I'm not sure why you care about inequalities. These are the norm. It doesn't really matter what two groups we observe....it could be white men age 25 and white men age 30. We could look at a study comparing how often they speed, get pulled over, and get a ticket....a scenario where there's few factors involved, sociologically.

I would expect to see a disparity....it would be odd if we didn't. Disparities are the norm....and I've never seen a sociologist claim otherwise. It doesn't matter what society, what point in history, or what groups.

If you can understand that....then it's not hard to see that the people advocating for these changes don't care a bit about inequality.


No, I didn't read that article. My example is something that was happening in a different country decades ago.

Oh...mine was regarding professors who are worried about the quality of the education minorities are receiving in med school. It seems that professors are reluctant to actually correct their mistakes or grade them as they do other students because it might result in accusations of racism.

This of course would probably bring about a sort of institutional collapse in the medical industry if true. Normally, I wouldn't lend it any weight but apparently, it's happening in other fields like mathematics as well.

Edit- probably worth pointing out that if your concern is about inequality of outcomes...not racism (and no these aren't the same thing) then your complaint about me is that I'm not a communist, or maybe a Marxist. It's got nothing to do with racism. You're quite willing to use racist discrimination to achieve Marxist dreams of utopias and equality. Race just happens to be your proxy for fomenting outrage at economic differences.

If you had simply accused me of not being a communist or Marxist, I'd have admitted to it....the very next post.

As such, I don't see any issue of larger concern at the moment.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yeah, they've been around a while. If you think of how long they've been here as a year, the rest of us arrived literally yesterday.

I don't think of people or time that way.

Some child of 5 years old hasn't been there longer than you....it doesn't matter what ethnic group or tribe he claims.


And what we did is similar to what was done to Native Americans:

A century of trauma at U.S. boarding schools for Native American children

Yeah. It's a quandary for those Europeans who in the past realized that these people were never going to quite fit into their society or reach the potential they could if they stayed separated from their society. In many places, these sort of attempts were made to bring people from a relatively "unadvanced" sort of society and into one that was ahead of all others.

This didn't happen everywhere of course....most empires simply killed off anyone who might cause any trouble.

Sometimes....a foreign group was able to recognize the significance of western civilization and made a concerted effort to understand it and adopt its practices....because failing to do so just meant that they would inevitably be crushed by it. Japan during the Meiji Restoration is a good example....and the advances they made in a mere 30 years took hundreds of years for Europeans to achieve.



And integration? There was none. Because they were ignored.

Well your link above indicates otherwise.

They aren't now. I was at my grandson's school last week waiting for a class to begin and just looking around for a few minutes. There's a small plaque at the entrance recognising that the school is on tribal land and paying respect to past, present and future tribal leaders. It's not uncommon to see that. Or hear it at a public event or a sports game. And there was a map of Australia in the classroom showing all the tribal areas.

It's changing.

If the school is on tribal land.....and the tribe doesn't want the school and would like to bulldoze it, and remove all those of European ancestry, would you leave all tribal land and return to Europe?
 
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Bradskii

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If the school is on tribal land.....and the tribe doesn't want the school and would like to bulldoze it, and remove all those of European ancestry, would you leave all tribal land and return to Europe?

Everything in Australia is on tribal land. And we have reached the point where we are welcome to use the land. You reach a point where what happened in the past by, and to, our ancestors is a fact of the present and we live with it.

It would be an interesting discussion as to how long that process takes. Because it has happened virtually everywhere to everyone at some point.
 
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stevil

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It's no different than a Christian telling me that I need an explanation for what happens after death.....or asks how the universe began....and inserts God when I tell him I don't know.
As a society we do not benefit from working out what happens to a human identity after death. There is no value is trying to solve that question.
However since society is made of cultures and races with glaring disparities and causing social unrest, we have a large incentive to try and work out what the problem is. I certainly do consider that my government must act on this. Work out what is going wrong, why are people of certain races disadvantaged and what can be done to address this.


I'm going to guess you mean equality of outcomes....not a fair process of opportunities.
I have never said this, but do go on. Don't let lack of listening and understanding get in the way of your thought processes.


Edit- probably worth pointing out that if your concern is about inequality of outcomes...not racism (and no these aren't the same thing) then your complaint about me is that I'm not a communist, or maybe a Marxist. It's got nothing to do with racism. You're quite willing to use racist discrimination to achieve Marxist dreams of utopias and equality. Race just happens to be your proxy for fomenting outrage at economic differences.

If you had simply accused me of not being a communist or Marxist, I'd have admitted to it....the very next post.

As such, I don't see any issue of larger concern at the moment.
Nice story, I'd be more exciting if you added dragons and magic sorcerers and maybe vampires. It wouldn't be any less believable but certainly would be more exciting.
Your mischaracterisations and lack of listening and lack of ability to think and understand are astonishing.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Everything in Australia is on tribal land. And we have reached the point where we are welcome to use the land. You reach a point where what happened in the past by, and to, our ancestors is a fact of the present and we live with it.

Please don't treat me like I don't have any clue regarding this topic. I know that all of the land is claimed as tribal land, I also know that by acknowledging it's their tribal land....they advance the idea of sovereignty over that land should be theirs.

If you acknowledge that as well....and they don't gain control over all laws and policies regarding land ownership....including to the point of expelling any descendants of Europeans....

Then you aren't really acknowledging anything.

Imagine I stole your bicycle.

You come to me demanding I admit to stealing it and give it back. I just shut my door in your face and tell you no....for years.

Then one day, when you soften your words by saying "look, just acknowledge you stole it"....and I say "I respectfully admit I stole your bicycle" and then shut the door in your face.

That's about all these land acknowledging performances mean. I'm fully aware that your indigenous tribes now demand sovereignty.

You can't share sovereignty. I'm curious as to how you would argue that you have the right to deny them sovereignty over their own lands?
 
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Ana the Ist

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As a society we do not benefit from working out what happens to a human identity after death.

Nonsense. There are people observing the patterns of tiny subatomic particles in supercolliders....and they have no real way of applying anything they learn to some benefit of society. My guess is that you don't consider these pursuits of knowledge potentially beneficial.

However since society is made of cultures and races with glaring disparities

Which have always existed.....even in the tribal societies that @Belk is talking about.


and causing social unrest,

Well is it the disparity causing unrest? Or the people who point at it and yell racism?

Given that these disparities have always existed....I'm inclined to believe the latter.

we have a large incentive to try and work out what the problem is.

No...just don't. You aren't interested in solving problems. You would have to consider all possible causes of a problem to even begin....and I already know your new religion doesn't allow it so let's not even pretend.

I certainly do consider that my government must act on this. Work out what is going wrong, why are people of certain races disadvantaged and what can be done to address this.

If you want to look at the causes of a problem....you have to be willing to consider all causes. For example...

Maori literacy rates amongst teens at least show that about 1/3rd struggle to read and write. That's well below the average I would imagine.

What's going on there? I'm pretty sure you have a robust school system that doesn't deny Maori the chance to participate. Even a bad teacher can pass along basic reading and writing skills.

I'm inclined to think that the reason is the same as why our indigenous people are so bad at reading and writing.

Out of respect for their culture....we don't force participation.

If the opportunity is there....and they don't want to participate, then I would point out that is the problem. If you fundamentally reject the chance to participate in a culture because of a fear of losing your own cultural identity....then I would expect them to also have disparities in opportunities, health outcomes, etc.

Why would you expect similar outcomes for a group of people who still have large numbers that reject the prevailing NZ culture?

If you reject the culture, don't take opportunities to participate, and demand the right to retain your own culture....

You shouldn't expect to benefit from the larger culture running the nation.

I have never said this, but do go on. Don't let lack of listening and understanding get in the way of your thought processes.

What inequalities are you talking about then?

That's what a disparity is....an inequality measured at some point as an outcome.

If you start bringing up disparities....You're talking about inequalities of outcomes.
 
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