Is there an absolute morality?

[TLK Valentine]

Sin has no place with God ...

By His decree, or yours?

do you even know where sin originated in creation?

An act of disobedience.

You don't give much consideration to the Bible do you?

I don't give much idolization to it.

 

[ISteveB]

But we don't know what God's 'greater good' is.

The redemption of the human race from sin, and its consequences. The creation of a new civilization, on a hew heavens and a new earth. It's all contained in the bible.

We have to play the cards we are dealt.

that is one way to look at it. YHVH has a better way. One that leads to life.
In fact, he actually warned us

I call heaven and earth to witness against you! I have set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life!

It could be that the holocaust will lead, as far as God is concerned, to some greater good.

The human race is running headlong towards its self destruction. Take a look at Russia and the Ukraine right now. Putin's war against the president and his citizens is totally unprovoked. Putin has unilaterally decided that Zelenskyy is a modern day Hitler. He's already killed thousands of Ukrainian people, and has attacked the largest nuclear power plant in the Ukraine. The news is reporting that if it blows, it'll be 10 times more destructive than Chernobyl.

But we aren't party to that.

We'll sure live with the consequences of a human genocide.

So we justifiably find it difficult to express how immoral it was.

Yet the human race apparently has no problem creating genocidal madness.
In Georgia, USA, there is a Stonehenge like display, describing the ideal world for humanity. One of the key factors is a planet wide population of 500,000,000. That's 500 million people. Presently, there's 7.875 billion people on earth. I did a basic calculation. This is a deliberate 93.6% reduction in the human population. So whoever the people are who put up the Georgia Guidestones has no problem whatsoever with creating a genocide beyond anything before.

The word doesn't seem sufficient. And we will all do our best to prevent horrors like that happening again.

I encourage you to look into the global reset, Georgia Guidestones, and 2030 agenda.

Because, and this is almost a trite thing to say about it, harm was done. With zero greater good that any sane person could propose. Therefore it was immoral.

Indeed. Yet there are people on earth who have decided that only 500 million people are allowed to live on earth in their ideal world.

So that's what I use to determine what an immoral act is. And pretty much that's what everyone else does. If no harm is done then it can't possibly be immoral. And if harm is done, then - depending on the specific circumstances, it will be immoral. And who makes that decision?

There are two choices and two only. Either someone does it for you. Or you do it yourself. Which do you use?

And you didn't answer my question. God said that the punishment for adultry (and quite a few other acts, such as working on the Sabath and homosexuality), is death. Now I've read the bible as well. Not as much as you. But I can't recall seeing any passage where He recinded those punishments. As far as I know, they still stand. Now I like a day off as much as the next guy. But I don't expect to be stoned to death if I'm out buying fuel.

The question I need you to ask is: Do you think that any civilised society should impose such rules - and why aren't they applicable now (assuming that you feel that they aren't)?

I want to encourage you to watch this video. It'll challenge your beliefs, your thinking, and the politics that are growing today.
Calvary Chapel Chino Hills - Happening Now featuring Charlie Kirk (March 2022) | Facebook

 

[Bradskii]

The redemption of the human race from sin, and its consequences. The creation of a new civilization, on a hew heavens and a new earth. It's all contained in the bible.


that is one way to look at it. YHVH has a better way. One that leads to life.
In fact, he actually warned us

I call heaven and earth to witness against you! I have set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life!




The human race is running headlong towards its self destruction. Take a look at Russia and the Ukraine right now. Putin's war against the president and his citizens is totally unprovoked. Putin has unilaterally decided that Zelenskyy is a modern day Hitler. He's already killed thousands of Ukrainian people, and has attacked the largest nuclear power plant in the Ukraine. The news is reporting that if it blows, it'll be 10 times more destructive than Chernobyl.


We'll sure live with the consequences of a human genocide.


Yet the human race apparently has no problem creating genocidal madness.
In Georgia, USA, there is a Stonehenge like display, describing the ideal world for humanity. One of the key factors is a planet wide population of 500,000,000. That's 500 million people. Presently, there's 7.875 billion people on earth. I did a basic calculation. This is a deliberate 93.6% reduction in the human population. So whoever the people are who put up the Georgia Guidestones has no problem whatsoever with creating a genocide beyond anything before.



I encourage you to look into the global reset, Georgia Guidestones, and 2030 agenda.




Indeed. Yet there are people on earth who have decided that only 500 million people are allowed to live on earth in their ideal world.



I want to encourage you to watch this video. It'll challenge your beliefs, your thinking, and the politics that are growing today.
Calvary Chapel Chino Hills - Happening Now featuring Charlie Kirk (March 2022) | Facebook

Thanks, but no videos. It's you I'm talking to. Not Charlie. But all that and you didn't at any time address how we determine immoral acts. Can you think about that?

 

[ISteveB]

Thanks, but no videos. It's you I'm talking to. Not Charlie. But all that and you didn't at any time address how we determine immoral acts. Can you think about that?

YHVH's Law.

Exo 20:1-18 WEB 1 God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 You shall labor six days, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; 11 for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which Yahweh your God gives you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

18 All the people perceived the thunderings, the lightnings, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled, and stayed at a distance.

Jesus summed it up into 2 commandments.

Mat 22:36-40 WEB 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him,

“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 A second likewise is this,

‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

So, by loving YHVH with a whole heart, soul and mind, and loving your neighbor as you love yourself, you will satisfy the righteousness of the law of YHVH.

 

[Bradskii]

So, by loving YHVH with a whole heart, soul and mind, and loving your neighbor as you love yourself, you will satisfy the righteousness of the law of YHVH.

I think you'll find that a fair proportion of the planet will have a problem with the first. As will I. So that won't help determine morality. But the second is a good step forward. I always recommend it myself. But it doesn't cover all moral problems. Just the ones where I have to think about how I treat others. And in that particular case, I will grant leave for others to do what I think is acceptable. And (up to a point) deny them doing what I think is unacceptable.

So I still have to determine what is right or wrong before I can determine if someone else is acting morally or immorally. Generally, if I think it's OK then I'll have no reason to deny someone else thinking the same. So if I think that euthenasia is acceptable then I have to allow my neighbour the right to take his own life in certain conditions.

If he thinks it's wrong then he'll need a good argument to convince me.

 

[ISteveB]

I think you'll find that a fair proportion of the planet will have a problem with the first. As will I.

I'm pretty sure that 90% of the human race would have several problems with it.
I'm not bothered by this. It's a choice that each and every single human being on earth must make for themselves. Me included.

So that won't help determine morality.

Actually, I think it's the foundation upon which all the other commandments are built.
It's impossible to build a solid house upon a badly deve,and poorly designed foundation. It may last a little while, but a couple of life changing experiences and it'll collapse. Jesus describes this in the last half of Matthew 7.

But the second is a good step forward. I always recommend it myself. But it doesn't cover all moral problems. Just the ones where I have to think about how I treat others. And in that particular case, I will grant leave for others to do what I think is acceptable. And (up to a point) deny them doing what I think is unacceptable.

That's rather amusing. Jesus said that these two commandments sum up the entirety of the law and prophets.
I.e., every matter that's important to God is answered in our adherence to them.
I.e., building a solid foundation.
What you think it lacks is simply a matter of limited perspective.

So I still have to determine what is right or wrong before I can determine if someone else is acting morally or immorally.

YHVH said what is right and wrong.
If we love him with a whole heart, soul, and mind, and love our neighbors as we want to be loved, we will do right.

If we don't do the first, our ability to do the latter will become diminished over the course of time, and eventually nonexistent. I.e., need a solid foundation.

it's not possible to do the former and ignore the latter. It's like the idea of flipping the light switch. If there's no power, no matter how many times you flip the switch, the lights will simply not come on. And if you don't have any lights plugged in, the power can't effect anything. It's there, but isn't able to be of benefit to the user.
This issue is discussed the New Testament letter of John, chapter 3, Romans chapter 13, vss 8-10, James chapter 2.

Generally, if I think it's OK then I'll have no reason to deny someone else thinking the same. So if I think that euthenasia is acceptable then I have to allow my neighbour the right to take his own life in certain conditions.

If he thinks it's wrong then he'll need a good argument to convince me.

It's a rather curious thing how to deal with this dynamic.

There are some people that you can talk to them and deal with each point, and no matter what, they will simply not agree with you.


Thus, this idea....
Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster” (Proverbs 1:32-33, ESV).

I watched my mother die from lung cancer because of this very thing.
Dating back to my childhood I pleaded with her, cajoled her, destroyed her cigarettes, and no matter what, she refused to quit. I spent the last week of her life watching the cancer murder her. She didn't care. She told me a couple years before she was diagnosed that her smoking was something that nobody could ever take from her. That she'd lostso much in her life that she wasn't going to quit no matter what.
So, her desperation to cling to her destructive habit stole her from the people who loved her the most.


I recently read a book, The Printer and the Preacher. A biographical narrative about Ben Franklin and George Whitefield.
In it were descriptions of why Ben Franklin believed in a moral life. For him it came down to common sense. There are numerous things that you simply don't want to engage in because they hurt the people you love and value.

I've chosen the description given by Jesus because of what I'd view as a common sense approach.

God has gone to great lengths to show me how much he loves me, even though I can be a real jerk (I'm thinking of a few epithetical terms at the moment, but forum mgmt doesn't like them), and his love for and towards me matters to me. Nobody has ever loved, and valued me as he has. Been with me through the madness and heartache and misery, and never walked away from me. So, I continue to daily engage him, and learn to love him in response.

In like manner, there are people in my life who matter deeply to me, and hurting them is not something I relish.

 

[Bradskii]

Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “

It would seem 'stupid' to me to prolong a life for a short time when that time would be spent in pain and misery. So I can use scripture to justify all that I consider to be 'stupid'.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It would seem 'stupid' to me to prolong a life for a short time when that time would be spent in pain and misery. So I can use scripture to justify all that I consider to be 'stupid'.

It sounds like the moral issue of things such as euthanasia/assisted suicide, which is connected to the medical possibilities.

We have the capabilities to keep our bodies running even after trauma or illness which would have otherwise shuffled of our moral coils -- but at what point are we no longer "preserving life" (which we can probably agree is a moral thing) and merely "postponing death" (not so much...)?

Can YHVH help us determine where the line is? I'd love to see a chapter and verse.

 

[ISteveB]

It would seem 'stupid' to me to prolong a life for a short time when that time would be spent in pain and misery. So I can use scripture to justify all that I consider to be 'stupid'.

What's this about?

 

[Bradskii]

What's this about?

I was told (and I quoted): 'Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “

So we'll skip 'just because it's wrong' as a reason for thinking something immoral. And we'll go with 'because it's stupid'. That seems fair enough to me.

So if someone thinks that preserving a life in abject misery and unbearable pain for a day or so longer than necessary is stupid, then who can argue against that?

 

[Stephen3141]

Are acts wrong in themselves? Or does it depend on the context?

You need to define what you mean by "absolute".
Different religious groups, and philosophers, often
have many different definitions.

 

[Neogaia777]

Some things might always be considered wrong, aka "absolute", etc, but are also permissible under certain situations and circumstances, etc, and many wonder if that still makes them wrong or not, etc? And therein lies the problem, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Some things might always be considered wrong, aka "absolute", etc, but are also permissible under certain situations and circumstances, etc, and many wonder if that still makes them wrong or not, etc? And therein lies the problem, etc.

God Bless.

And many people say that morality is then subjective then because of this, etc.

But I'm not here to argue who is either wrong, or is else right about that, etc.

In a world that is both good and bad, it can all get confused, etc.

And we often have to determine that on the fly, or as those situations present themselves, etc.

And no one always gets it 100% right all of time and always, etc.

And that is just life, etc.

The most we can do is learn and grow from it, and allow ourselves to be changed for the better by it, etc.

I think that's what this world is for right now, etc.

God Bless.

 

[eleos1954]

I think you'll find that a fair proportion of the planet will have a problem with the first. As will I. So that won't help determine morality. But the second is a good step forward. I always recommend it myself. But it doesn't cover all moral problems. Just the ones where I have to think about how I treat others. And in that particular case, I will grant leave for others to do what I think is acceptable. And (up to a point) deny them doing what I think is unacceptable.

So I still have to determine what is right or wrong before I can determine if someone else is acting morally or immorally. Generally, if I think it's OK then I'll have no reason to deny someone else thinking the same. So if I think that euthenasia is acceptable then I have to allow my neighbour the right to take his own life in certain conditions.

If he thinks it's wrong then he'll need a good argument to convince me.

Just the ones where I have to think about how I treat others.

Why do you and others (who do not believe in God) think this way? Why do you/we care about others? Was it because it was taught/learned by social behavior? Why do some not care about others?

The bible teaches that basic morality is instilled in everyone (knowing the basic differences between right and wrong). That is ... Without God there is no reason for morality of any kind.

Why do many of us (if not most) have a guilty conscience? Some may choose to ignore their guilty conscience (sense of wrong) but that is not to say they don't have one.

So, science says ....

An obvious answer is that we have learned to do so through socialization, that is, our behaviors were shaped from birth onward originally by our families, and then onward through our preschools, and almost everything we contacted in our environments. Morality is an inner sense of rightness about our behavior and the behavior of others ... and they vary.

Where did this original "inner sense of rightness" of the parent/families come from or start? Trial and failure?

 

[Neogaia777]

And many people say that morality is then subjective then because of this, etc.

But I'm not here to argue who is either wrong, or is else right about that, etc.

In a world that is both good and bad, it can all get confused, etc.

And we often have to determine that on the fly, or as those situations present themselves, etc.

And no one always gets it 100% right all of time and always, etc.

And that is just life, etc.

The most we can do is learn and grow from it, and allow ourselves to be changed for the better by it, etc.

I think that's what this world is for right now, etc.

God Bless.

I think it's funny when those who say that there are then never any moral absolutes ever, or say that morality is always subjective, etc, seek to then condemn a God for something like say "genocide", or something like that maybe, without considering all the very, very unique circumstances and situations that only one who is a God can be put in, etc.

Because I think that's absolutely hilarious, etc.

Talk about hypocrisy, etc.

I could tell you a thing or two about those very unique circumstances, but I highly doubt you'd want to hear them, etc.

But it might just make you re-think your human moral positions (and judgements) (and pre-judgements) on them, etc.

God Bless.

 

[childeye 2]

Why do you and others (who do not believe in God) think this way? Why do you/we care about others? Was it because it was taught/learned by social behavior? Why do some not care about others?

The bible teaches that basic morality is instilled in everyone (knowing the basic differences between right and wrong). That is ... Without God there is no reason for morality of any kind.

Why do many of us (if not most) have a guilty conscience? Some may choose to ignore their guilty conscience (sense of wrong) but that is not to say they don't have one.

So, science says ....

An obvious answer is that we have learned to do so through socialization, that is, our behaviors were shaped from birth onward originally by our families, and then onward through our preschools, and almost everything we contacted in our environments. Morality is an inner sense of rightness about our behavior and the behavior of others ... and they vary.

Where did this original "inner sense of rightness" of the parent/families come from or start? Trial and failure?

Such questions always make me think of women's breasts. A human baby is born utterly dependent on a maternal instinct.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Why do you and others (who do not believe in God) think this way? Why do you/we care about others? Was it because it was taught/learned by social behavior? Why do some not care about others?

The bible teaches that basic morality is instilled in everyone (knowing the basic differences between right and wrong). That is ... Without God there is no reason for morality of any kind.

Why do many of us (if not most) have a guilty conscience? Some may choose to ignore their guilty conscience (sense of wrong) but that is not to say they don't have one.

So, science says ....

An obvious answer is that we have learned to do so through socialization, that is, our behaviors were shaped from birth onward originally by our families, and then onward through our preschools, and almost everything we contacted in our environments. Morality is an inner sense of rightness about our behavior and the behavior of others ... and they vary.

Where did this original "inner sense of rightness" of the parent/families come from or start? Trial and failure?

You haven't read the thread, have you?

 

[Neogaia777]

"Genocide is always wrong!"

"Is that a subjective opinion?"

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

"Genocide is always wrong!"

"Is that a subjective opinion?"

God Bless.

For a human, it probably always is, but maybe might not be always for One who is a God, etc.

You just need to stretch your imagination a little bit more, etc.

God Bless.

 

[eleos1954]

"Genocide is always wrong!"

"Is that a subjective opinion?"

God Bless.

However ... there are some religions that do not believe genocide is wrong ... rather they are doing the will of their god.

Most do believe that genocide is wrong .... but not all.