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Is there an absolute morality?

Neogaia777

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I thought objective morality is always 100% determination. Its ether right or its wrong. Even saying something is not objectively wrong is an objective claim. Like in Math where there is only an objective determination either 2+2=4 or it doesn't. Either the earth is flat or its a sphere ect.

Just because we cannot work out the objective fact of the matter doesn't mean that there is not objective fact or that objectives are not 100%. It may be like in science that we just havn't been able to work out the facts, we need more information and understanding.

It is the nature of moral language rather than whether there are objective morals that signifies objective morlaity. If it uses the type of language that only requires a right or wrong answer then either way its objective and there are no subjective thinking that may produce alternative options like I feel 2+2=4.25 or in my opinion the earth is flat or an egg shape.

Which according to a relative moral system are all valid and alternative options for why an act is right or wrong because afterall the subjective or culture cannot be wrong, its just their view of the world.
It is possible that we just have too many feelings involved to determine objective moral facts right now, etc... It's possible anyway...

And in my opinion also, you would also have to fully know all and see all to be able to fully do it all, and/or determine it all, and determine it (all) right or correctly also, etc...

They could exist, but right now humans are too emotional about it to be able to determine it 100% completely objectively right now, and they do not nearly know or see enough right now also, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I'm here defending the Word of God as the light of mankind. Morality is the same as godliness. Either I know God is love or I don't know Him. And that goes for every Christian on this forum. I don't take credit for His existing in me, or at least I try not to.
Just as long as your not trying to hide behind scripture, fine, do what you think you need to do or will, and I will apologize to you, OK...

God Bless!
 
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childeye 2

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Bottom line: If you or me or mine or anyone else's feelings are involved in deciding it, it's not and is no longer objective and never was, etc...

God Bless!
It's not talking about feeling love/compassion. It's talking about individual personal feelings or opinions as being subjective. Maternal instinct, brotherly love are universal and innate in humanity and therefore exist objectively. They cannot be human constructs. Moral virtues are positive negative just like all energy, Honesty/dishonesty, Hope/despair, Faithful/unfaithful. They prove themselves as moral through their negatives in our shared reality.
 
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Neogaia777

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Morality is about caring about how our actions affect others. One can't reason right from wrong in any faithful manor without that.

But that caring did not always exist and was "learned", etc...

Humans used to be very much like rabid, wild animals, etc...

Caring about nothing and no one but themselves and their own immediate needs, etc...

And that quite literally and in a very extreme way, etc...

Both males and females like this, etc...

An objective view of reality is what you're talking about, as in no one can see all of reality. No one can disagree with that.

It's the way I see objective, etc...

And morality is a part of reality, is it not...?

Or at least came about among humans in a human existence as reality over time and with enough human development/advancement, right or correct, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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It's not talking about feeling love/compassion. It's talking about personal feelings or opinions as subjective. Maternal instinct, brotherly love are universal and innate in humanity and therefore exist objectively. They cannot be human constructs.
That can be debated though, if humans were at one time, both men and women, very much like rabid, wild animals, then who knows if those things always were and/or existed or not, etc...

Some animals in the animal kingdom don't care about their babies, and just abandon them to take care of and fend for themselves and abandon them and leave them almost immediately, etc...

And brotherly or sisterly love, as in having some feelings of caring or compassion for your fellow man, might have had to be learned as well, etc...

But, perhaps those points can be debated, I'll give you that much, but how do you think we could use them to go about determining objective morality for all, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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The extreme definition of objective though still leaves very little wiggle-room though...

Seems to say it cannot not at all be based on mine or yours or anyone else's "feelings", etc...

But definitions can always be altered, and can change over time also, etc....

God Bless!
 
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VirOptimus

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This is classed "Error theory" mainly proposed by John L. Mackie. But this has been argued against. It makes something we live our lives by as a sham and error in our thinking and yet we use that type of thinking for making moral norms as though there is no error and morality is not a sham. Once again reality speaks for itself.

Responses to the error theory have taken several forms on the grounds that, even if ethical opinions differ fundamentally, this does not prevent one from being right and the others wrong, and the latter mainly on the grounds that Mackie suffered from an oversimple, "scientistic" conception of the kind of thing a moral fact would have to be.

Perhaps more fundamentally, it is not clear what clean, error-free practice the error theorist would wish to substitute for old, error-prone ethics. That is, assuming that people living together have a need for shared practical norms, then some way of expressing and discussing those norms seems to be needed, and this is all that ethics requires.
Error Theory of Ethics | Encyclopedia.com


But I guess you relate to error theory as its close to Nilhilism.
Learn some real philosophy.
 
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Neogaia777

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It's not talking about feeling love/compassion. It's talking about individual personal feelings or opinions as being subjective. Maternal instinct, brotherly love are universal and innate in humanity and therefore exist objectively. They cannot be human constructs. Moral virtues are positive negative just like all energy, Honesty/dishonesty, Hope/despair, Faithful/unfaithful. They prove themselves as moral through their negatives in our shared reality.
Since you added to your post...?

I believe the virtues were or had to be learned, because at one point in time, humans just "were", and just like the rabid, wild animals, did not have any of these concepts, or thoughts, or ideas, at all, etc, that has probably been a much more recent than that development, etc...

But, your points about the maternal instinct among women with their children, and with all of them having some kind of feeling of care for each other or other humans, might go back farther than that, IDK?, but, how could we use them in determining any kind of "objective" morality now, etc...?

Or should we even worry about whether or not they are or have always been objective or not objective or not, and just base it on, or determine it on/by, what we know right now, and have learned up to this point right now, etc, and be grateful for it, etc...

Because, as I said, I don't think that is at all "wrong", etc...

Humans, and humans societies, need laws and rules, etc, and cannot govern themselves or function effectively or properly without them, etc...

In the end, who really cares if they are objective or not objective or not, etc, or where they came from, or how each individual one determines it/them to be objective or not objective or not, based on various definitions of it or how they are determining it or ways of defining it, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I still think that even if we could determine some kind of morality that has always been with humanity objectively, that it might still only be within the context of humanity only maybe, etc...

Unless all beings everywhere have that, or are born with that, or start out with that inherently, etc...

God Bless!
 
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stevevw

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Bottom line: If you or me or mine or anyone else's feelings are involved in deciding it, it's not and is no longer objective and never was, etc...

God Bless!
So if 2 people are arguing about a moral issue and if someone says I feel that something is morally OK how do we know its the case. Can can we really base such an important decision on a feeling or a personal opinion when whether an act is right or wrong has so much weight dependent on it and could affect peoples lives.

The other person would naturally ask "how do I know what you feel or your opinion is actually the case". The other person will naturally then begin appeal to some objective basis. They cannot help but not. They cannot just leave their arguement based on some feeling or opinion as thats not how people argue about morality.
 
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Moral Orel

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You premise is not true you are only assuming your first premise is true just like I am assuming moral realism is true. The premise of your arguement is "If" anti realism is true. "If" and only "if" its true. Therefore I can do the same by taking out the "non"part of your arguement.

If moral realism is true, then then all moral statements are true.
Any form of "People should..." is a moral statement.
Any form of "If moral realism is true, then people should..." is always true..

But as I aslo said your arguement fails for another reason based on premise 2. Not all statements that contain "Should" are moral statements and I have provided support for this which you have not addressed.
You already acknowledged that both of my premises and the conclusion are true. You lost. Own it for once.

If moral non-realism is true, then there are no moral statements that are true.

Yes thats correct.

"People should..." is a moral statement.

any statement of the form, "If moral non-realism is true, then people should..." is always false

I am not disputing that
 
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Neogaia777

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So if 2 people are arguing about a moral issue and if someone says I feel that something is morally OK how do we know its the case. Can can we really base such an important decision on a feeling or a personal opinion when whether an act is right or wrong has so much weight dependent on it and could affect peoples lives.

The other person would naturally ask "how do I know what you feel or your opinion is actually the case". The other person will naturally then begin appeal to some objective basis. They cannot help but not. They cannot just leave their arguement based on some feeling or opinion as thats not how people argue about morality.
Well, since were not supposed to decide based on yours or mine or anyone's kinds of "feelings" (or just own personal just only personal "opinions" only, etc) either way, etc, at all, etc, then you tell me...?

Because that's exactly what I am looking for, etc...?

What do, or what should we base it on that is more "factual", etc...?

And also "who decides" also...? Since it is supposed to be an overall agreement of all collectively...?

Or is something "wrong" inherently, (or objectively among humanity) (and we can all agree on what that, or all of those is, etc) but in dealing out justice and/or punishment, it is always a matter of "degrees" respectively...? And maybe even sometimes not even ever be wrong at all, in some great minority of cases respectively, etc...?

(Law and order/justice has always been a difficult subject for humanity, etc)...

God Bless!
 
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Moral Orel

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This is a circular reasoning:

If moral non-realism is true, then people should (no matter what you put here as a moral statement is false).

It simply states, If objective morality is false then there are no moral statements.
This isn't an argument for moral non-realism so there's nothing circular about it. It's an argument targeted at a specific claim that Steve likes to make. And I have no idea why you think it claims there are no moral statements at all. There are still false moral statements.
 
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Neogaia777

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So if 2 people are arguing about a moral issue and if someone says I feel that something is morally OK how do we know its the case. Can can we really base such an important decision on a feeling or a personal opinion when whether an act is right or wrong has so much weight dependent on it and could affect peoples lives.

The other person would naturally ask "how do I know what you feel or your opinion is actually the case". The other person will naturally then begin appeal to some objective basis. They cannot help but not. They cannot just leave their arguement based on some feeling or opinion as thats not how people argue about morality.
What objective basis do you feel you are appealing to for yours, etc...?

And is it entirely factual, etc...?

And if so, could you tell me what it is in just a few words, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What objective basis do you feel you are appealing to for yours, etc...?

And is it entirely factual, etc...?

And if so, could you tell me what it is in just a few words, etc...?

God Bless!
@stevevw

And things like: "everybody just knows", (or knows from within), doesn't work if everybody just does not seem to know also, or has another take also, etc...

And again, try to use as few or words as you possibly can please, OK... To the above questions please, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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We might all be able to agree and say maybe, that, "this or that" is (always) wrong, but also that it is more or less wrong depending on the degrees, etc, and, in some great minority of circumstances/cases/degrees, might not even be wrong at all sometimes, in some very small minority of cases, etc...

Because to me, that seems to be the way it really is or goes, or should go with humanity, etc...

It might still be based on a "feeling" though, etc...?

But if it's a complete and whole collective feeling among all, then I don't see anything wrong with basing it on that for the time being, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Personally in my own life personally, I'm trying to learn how to walk in Spirit well enough to be able to, either, know right away, or at least hear what He's telling me about what is right, or else wrong, in each and any given situation as it (or they) arises or presents them/it's selves, etc...

Needless to say I still have a long, long way to go to learn it perfectly, etc, I mess it up quite a bit sometimes and a lot of the time, etc, but I'm still learning, etc...

It is very difficult because I cannot in any way (I feel) prepare beforehand, etc, and I'm the type of person that's most usually not so good with/at that sometimes, etc, if I cannot prepare so as to be ready or already know beforehand, etc, but thankfully He is very patient with me, etc, and gives me lot's of chances, etc, and doesn't get overly upset with me when I blow it, or mess it up, or mess it up big-time sometimes, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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childeye 2

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But that caring did not always exist and was "learned", etc...
You have felt love for others, have you not? I instinctively loved my brothers and nobody taught me. If someone attacked my brother or my friend, look out! There are ties that form because we enter the world absolutely dependent upon the love of others. I say that's true and an objective approach, even though it can only be stated from my subjective point of view.

In such a circumstance, the fear of others not being my brother is something we would learn. So, the impetus of morality is innate. Consider that in neuro-chemistry, the body is made to create chemicals that form what we perceive as both compassion and fear. We grieve and cry at the loss of others. We don't learn that. We were made and fashioned to experience it. Show me some hatred and I'll bet it came from a betrayal of some form (barring wordplay). I think a child starts out innocent and learns immorality. In other words, we start out trusting, and learn to distrust.

Humans used to be very much like rabid, wild animals, etc...
Caring about nothing and no one but themselves and their own immediate needs, etc...

And that quite literally and in a very extreme way, etc...
That's a theory and it's subjective in that it remains to be proven. I've read theories like that, some relying on city/states forming or dominant powers vs inferior powers. But I think this is talking about rules to govern, and who rules, makes the rules. Do we have rules that are immoral? Black people sit at the back of the bus? We've waged campaigns of genocide based on so called moralities such as Native Americans don't know god, so they're savages.

We certainly have carnal impulses, but what keeps them at bay? This is what self-control implies. Self-control is therefore seen objectively as a moral virtue, even though the impulses they control are also innate in the person (See spiritual mind vs carnal mind). This creates semantical confusion since the same terms mean different things according to which mind is being served.

I've read about Scientific studies which purport to show that even rats show compassion. I've seen experiments where baby monkeys through adolescence were allowed time with their mothers ranging from 100%, 50%, 0%. The monkeys that were 100% of the time with their mothers through adolescence, turned out friendly trusting and happy. The ones who were raised 50% of the time with their Mothers were distrustful of others. The ones that were 0%, were insane with fear, and they were vicious. I'm no authority on the matter, I only know that the goodness in mankind is universal and it's corruptible.



It's the way I see objective, etc...
I know. I can see that too. You're not wrong. But what is a fact or is it in fact a fact? The terminology for morality/immorality is positive/negative. This is for the sake of contrast. Therefore morality is proven through its negative in our reality.

And morality is a part of reality, is it not...?
Oh yeah. But for the sake of clarity, it matters what a person means when they say the word. Is it a subject matter of morality/immorality? Or is it Love/compassion, the actual morality? We teach our children right/wrong because we love them and want them to be good people for the sake of having productive lives.

If we're talking about rules, I think we'll find that immorality is the impetus for rules, which would make the negative an impetus for morality, if the rules are deemed the morality. This is antithetical to the term morality as a positive. This is how semantics form in subjective views. Immorality did not write the rules for morality. Morality wrote the rules because of immorality. So, accordingly, what came first in mankind, in regards to what is moral behavior, would be objectively perceived as ignorance of morality/immorality, since knowledge implies that there is a Truth that exists apart from ourselves, and this knowledge is about who we are.

Or at least came about among humans in a human existence as reality over time and with enough human advancement, right...?
Did humans advance morality, or did morality advance humans? What if we exist in a temporal setting, to learn the value of Who God is by being made in His Image? Because as a creature, we only become vain when we take God for granted.
 
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childeye 2

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This isn't an argument for moral non-realism so there's nothing circular about it. It's an argument targeted at a specific claim that Steve likes to make. And I have no idea why you think it claims there are no moral statements at all. There are still false moral statements.
Okay, I take you at your word that I misunderstood your intent all this time. We need to qualify our terms. Morality/immorality implies subject matter. Morality implies the positive, the goodness. Example Honesty/dishonesty. Honesty is the moral virtue that is valued, while dishonesty devalues honesty. That is clarity in psycholinguistics.

So what is moral non-realism, and what is immoral non-realism?
Moral/immoral non-realism, is coherent. Non-realism will suffice assuming it's about Morality/immorallity.

What is a moral statement and what is an immoral statement?
I know what a moral/immoral statement is.
 
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