Is there an absolute morality?

[o_mlly]

Murder is always wrong. Killing is not always wrong.

Directly killing an innocent person is intrinsically wrong for anyone under any circumstance.

More generally, all human acts can be judged to be right or wrong.

All human acts require the use of reason and free will, properties unique to humans. Reason allows us via insight to see in the act an end in view. So, regardless of any actor, the human act by its very nature has a proximate end in view, a moral object.

If the moral object of the act is wrong then the act is wrong for any actor in any circumstance.

If the moral object of the act is not wrong then one looks at the circumstances to judge the act. Circumstances, things that surround the act but do not change the very species of the act, must also be good to judge the act good.

We presume a good intention. If, however, the intention of a particular actor, is bad then the act is bad regardless of the goodness of the moral object or circumstances. All three, object, intention and circumstances must be good to judge the act good. A defect in any one renders the act bad.

 

[CatsRule2020]

Moral Relativism- what is morally right and wrong varies from person to person, community to community.

Moral Absolutism- an act is always right or wrong with no exceptions, no matter the circumstances.

Universal morality- a practice that is widespread that can be sinful or not sinful to various persons or communities.

Objective morality- the knowledge of a certain act, or lack of a certain act, in a particular circumstance, is either metaphysically right or wrong.


The use of Moral Absolutes in the Old Testament were used to teach us examples, Paul writes in 1Cor.10:6 . The Moral Absolutes of the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Gal.3:24-25

An example of Objective Morality in the New Testament would be that it would have been sinful for anyone else but the priests to eat the showbread of the Temple, but God did make exception for David and his men. A one-time event. Fast forward to Jesus in Mt.12:1-8 where He fastens an Objective moral that when a person is very hungry, it is not now morally wrong to eat from God's storehouse.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'd say so.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

As far as right and wrong, only insofar as the court agrees with God. As far as submission, that is a different matter.

John 19:11 'Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”'

 

[SkyWriting]

As far as right and wrong, only insofar as the court agrees with God. As far as submission, that is a different matter.'

Jesus submits to be arrested.
Jesus submits to being crucified.
Jesus explains that the local law is His Fathers will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus submits to be arrested.
Jesus submits to being crucified.
Jesus explains that the local law is His Fathers will.

Agreed. What I said about submission to authorities is a different issue from deciding right and wrong by their judgements. Just 'cause someone legally gets away with something doesn't make it a right thing to do.

 

[TheWhat?]

I'd say so.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

Just to make this interesting...

[Act 5:29 NKJV] 29 But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men."

And it seems to agree with the example from Exodus. Contradiction? Or could it be that not all who claim authority, are authorities established by God?

 

[TheWhat?]

Maybe Pharaoh had authority. God did say "for this purpose have I raised you up...". Although, I think it's a stretch to assume God gave Pharaoh absolute authority, or that earthly authority possesses authority to misuse authority, else, how could God be just for judging Pharaoh?

 

[Bradskii]

Of course. I built up the various molecules in my testicles to provide the sperm that delivered my genetic material to the ova my wife built up in her ovaries.

Did you not know that?

Ahem. A little too much info to read over breakfast.

 

[Bradskii]

I agree with this.

Using the terms murder and rape presupposes a rendered judgement. Asking is murder ever OK is like asking is A ever not-A. To call something murder, you've already said "that's a killing that we don't allow or shouldn't be allowed".

So when I read the @Bradskii's OP "Are acts wrong in themselves? Or does it depend on the context?" The answers are, to me, obvious: No and Yes, respectively. A rape is a particular kind of sex act; it's one where one participant did not consent to participate. The act in question is the copulation. The act is in some contexts right and sometimes wrong. The act is not "absolutely" wrong. In the case of rape, we deem it wrong because of the context: lack of consent of all parties.

Murder is killing with a particular context. The act is killing which in terms of war is expected and deemed right (by the side you're on, anyway). The act of killing a stranger on the street without provocation is likely to be deemed, by the subjective judgement of the jury, to rise to the level of murder. Thus, they've deemed the act of killing, in this context, to be wrong.

So I'd say no act is wrong in an of itself, that is to say, absolutely, but rather wrong because of the context of the act.

There had been quite a few posts up to Tinker's that maybe missunderstood exactly what absolute means as regards morality. So I'm glad that he's put that straight. Absolutely wrong doesn't mean 'something that everyone would agree is wrong'. It's wrong absent any context. And terms like rape and murder contain the context within the definition of those terms.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just to make this interesting...

[Act 5:29 NKJV] 29 But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men."

And it seems to agree with the example from Exodus. Contradiction? Or could it be that not all who claim authority, are authorities established by God?

Peter was speaking to church leaders and telling them that Local Law is God's will and not the heads of the church. He was telling them to get lost, mind their own business, take a hike.

 

[SkyWriting]

Agreed. What I said about submission to authorities is a different issue from deciding right and wrong by their judgements. Just 'cause someone legally gets away with something doesn't make it a right thing to do.

It does. Thanks.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Luke 10:19
Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

2 Corinthians 2:9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

 

[SkyWriting]

As far as right and wrong, only insofar as the court agrees with God.

The courts are God's will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The courts are God's will.

Of course. I don't even need to get into the "two wills of God" to discuss this! They, and other government authorities, are put in place by God —even the corrupt ones— to do his will. But they are not our spiritual representatives nor authorities over our consciences. God is.

When they have taken my guns, do you think they should need no guns, no need of force, when the time comes, and that I should willingly load myself onto the boxcar?

 

[SkyWriting]

Of course. I don't even need to get into the "two wills of God" to discuss this! They, and other government authorities, are put in place by God —even the corrupt ones— to do his will. But they are not our spiritual representatives nor authorities over our consciences. God is.

Jesus submitted to arrest and to crucifixion to solidify the point.

 

[honestal]

“The Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women."
True.
"They are robust and give birth before the midwife arrives.”
True. Or at least, not necessarily false.

If that's the case--"the Hebrew women give birth before the midwife arrives"--why does the passage end by saying, "THEREFORE God dealt well with the midwives."

And don't forget, we're also told: "the midwives did not as the king commanded them."

You're understanding doesn't harmonize with the scenario we're given.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus submitted to arrest and to crucifixion to solidify the point.

Why did he do that —to submit to their authority, or in submission to his Father's authority? He volunteered to die, and that, from the beginning of time. He was making no admission that they were appointed by God as spiritual authorities over him.

 

[SkyWriting]

When they have taken my guns, do you think they should need no guns, no need of force, when the time comes, and that I should willingly load myself onto the boxcar?

Jesus went willingly to the cross. He told his associates to lower their weapons.

 

[SkyWriting]

Directly killing an innocent person is intrinsically wrong for anyone under any circumstance.

When Sodom was destroyed, so were all the local towns in the valley.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus went willingly to the cross. He told his associates to lower their weapons.

If I was to take your answer as your only answer to my question, then I would have to say, that, yes, you think I should load myself (and my family) onto the boxcar at the kind demand of tyrants.

Strange that Paul appealed to Caesar.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why did he do that —to submit to their authority, or in submission to his Father's authority? He volunteered to die, and that, from the beginning of time. He was making no admission that they were appointed by God as spiritual authorities over him.

Submission to local law is submission to God's authority.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Daniel 2:21
He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Proverbs 8:15-16
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by me princes rule, and nobles, all who govern justly.

Jeremiah 27:5-8
“It is I who by my great power and my outstretched arm have made the earth, with the men and animals that are on the earth, and I give it to whomever it seems right to me. Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him. All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson, until the time of his own land comes. Then many nations and great kings shall make him their slave. “‘“But if any nation or kingdom will not serve this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence, declares the Lord, until I have consumed it by his hand.

Ephesians 5:21
submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Jude 1:8
Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

Daniel 5:18-23
O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father kingship and greatness and glory and majesty. And because of the greatness that he gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whom he would, he killed, and whom he would, he kept alive; whom he would, he raised up, and whom he would, he humbled. But when his heart was lifted up and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was brought down from his kingly throne, and his glory was taken from him. He was driven from among the children of mankind, and his mind was made like that of a beast, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. He was fed grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, until he knew that the Most High God rules the kingdom of mankind and sets over it whom he will. And you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, though you knew all this,

Psalm 62:11
Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God,

1 Chronicles 28:4-5
Yet the Lord God of Israel chose me from all my father's house to be king over Israel forever. For he chose Judah as leader, and in the house of Judah my father's house, and among my father's sons he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel. And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

Daniel 4:32
and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”

1 Samuel 2:8
He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

2 Peter 2:10-11
and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.

Revelation 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”