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I'm not the one doubting their assurance of salvation and to be honest there are times where I've even come to doubt my own just as everyone else has doubted at some point in their faith journey.You shouldn't doubt of someone relationship with God because they don't have assurance. I can confess, I don't have assurance of salvation but I try to do my best to be close to God, but I am realistic and I know Paul said "workout your salvation with fear and trembling".
I think we are on a different page or something because being an Arminian I agree with your premiseYes, but God will not make anyone go to Heaven who does not want to be there.
To do so would be to deny us of the very free will He gave us. It would be an unloving thing to do.
If we choose an attachment to serious sin to the very end of our lives, we choose Hell.
That is all we know. You mentioned in post 25, point number two, that we do not know what happens at the very last moment of life.
Maybe, for example, Jesus stops time and reveals complete knowledge to us the second before we die and we make a final decision then. If this is the case, why would anyone choose Hell? All I know is, I ain't gonna bank on it.
I agree, the Holy Spirit comes and stays..People can backslide into legalism and recover back to Grace. But God's Holy Spirit does not come and go, then return. That is impossible. There are many believers here who are law bound and thus judgmental who can recover thanks to God's forgiveness.
what is the EO interpretation or concept of this intermediate state? "Sin being burned away" or anything with fire isn't accepted as literate to most catholics.
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons we pray for the dead. Using Maccabees makes more sense in the Orthodox view than in the Catholic one.Like many things in the EO there is no dogmatic definition of what happens after death. Many believe you go strait to heaven or Hell-bent BUT
Those who study the Father's mostly except the idea of the "tollhouses". I personally believe in them as have many saints, that after death there is a small judgement of temptations. That on death we have to pass through the realm of the air which is controlled by the devil and his minions. At each "tollhouse" (this is just a word made to describe something spiritual), a person is tempted by demons into a certain sin. A Christian will be able to get through them either by extreme piety (usually by heavy ascetic practice in life), or by faith. There were many stories of people who got through then by calling on the name of Christ or the Mother of God and were instantly delivered.
Depending on ones actions during this trial, you may be temporarily sent to hell, or to heaven. Those in hell have a chance to be prayed out by those of extreme faith.
After that the final judgement awaits and who can say what will happen then.
Like I said it's not official dogma so many people don't believe in such a thing, but having read several books on the subject I definitely see it as the patristic view and it makes sense. It's also been witnessed by several pre schism saints and post.
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons we pray for the dead. Using Maccabees makes more sense in the Orthodox view than in the Catholic one.
Like many things in the EO there is no dogmatic definition of what happens after death. Many believe you go strait to heaven or Hell- BUT
Those who study the Father's mostly except the idea of the "tollhouses". I personally believe in them as have many saints, that after death there is a small judgement of temptations. That on death we have to pass through the realm of the air which is controlled by the devil and his minions. At each "tollhouse" (this is just a word made to describe something spiritual), a person is tempted by demons into a certain sin. A Christian will be able to get through them either by extreme piety (usually by heavy ascetic practice in life), or by faith. There were many stories of people who got through them by calling on the name of Christ or the Mother of God and were instantly delivered.
Depending on one's actions during this trial, you may be temporarily sent to hell, or to heaven. Those in hell have a chance to be prayed out by those of extreme faith.
After that the final judgement awaits, and who can say what will happen then.
Like I said it's not official dogma so many people don't believe in such a thing, but having read several books on the subject I definitely see it as the patristic view and it makes sense. It's also been witnessed by several pre schism saints and post.
Like many things in the EO there is no dogmatic definition of what happens after death. Many believe you go strait to heaven or Hell- BUT
Those who study the Father's mostly except the idea of the "tollhouses".
There is also an idea of an intermediary state for the Christians who are not saints, but have faith. Its a complex topic with little Biblical backing mostly based off of visions and writings of saints with no clear consensus (with the exception of the small judgement). I personally don't worry too much about it and just pray for the departed and do my best to be pious. I think the issue with the RCC is that it seems to tend to dogmatize EVERYTHING.I am aware that there are Orthodox who believe in the "aerial toll house" just as you described, however I thought it necessary to believe in an intermediate after-death state were souls end up getting perfected and brought to divination, the only difference this was with Purgatory is that it is a growing progressive event unlike the catholic with is punishment (the fire).
My only problem with the Catholic view is that it seems to take these verses to literally. Regardless of the RCC having it as a doctrine, many of us have different views on this "purgatory". While others stick to the official illustration of the church which is a place for the saved before entering heaven. I have to admit, the whole "only for the saved" part makes 0 sense to me so I am one of those who believe in a court-like purgatory in where the dead are judged and given the proper sentence depending on the sins they've done on earth.
I'm a huge fan! Really huge.
Another forum member, and myself, hijacked another thread when we got off topic in regards to humans having a second chance at salvation, after death.
My argument was that, basically, people fall into 5 categories when they die.
1/ Those that heard the Gospel and accepted it.
2/ Those that heard the Gospel and refused to accept Christ's Kingship and worthiness of worship, and the fact that He is their only way to the father.
3/ Those that heard the gospel, or any Christian message and disregard it as myth and empty hope.
4/ Those that are never mentally capable of comprehending the gospel message, even if they heard it..nor reaching a cognitive ability of being held accountable for their actions.
And,
5/ Those that never heard the gospel. Whether due to when they were alive or where they lived, or who they were around.
If these 5 categories, numbers 1 - 3 heard the good news and made a choice in regards to what they would do with this information...Only #1 will enter paradise. There is no "second chance" for 2 or 3
Category 4 are given a pass due to the fact they cannot be held accountable for things that they were not aware of.
Category 5 are judged by God, based on their life's works.
So...
Do people get a second chance after death, for salvation?
Do people get a second chance after death, for salvation?
Sarcasm I assume?
Do you mean that a Muslim, or a Buddhist will have salvation through Christ, if their heart is right?People get one chance, and is just, fair, and compassionate for all.
God does not ask anyone to "Walk the isle" and proclaim Jesus, or even get wetted.
1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”
This counts for all the 5 catagories.
REJECTING God in your heart, rejecting God's pure love is the only way into Hell.
Even other religions are covered. Babies are born without hatred for love. Raise them up in love and they will not stray from it.
Do you mean that a Muslim, or a Buddhist will have salvation through Christ, if their heart is right?
The different Orthodox each have their pet dogmas.do you accept the dogma according to the Orthodox?
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