Is there a "second chance" for salvation.

[CleanSoul]

It's not about what you, me, or anyone has done, but what Jesus has done for us.

Yes, but God will not make anyone go to Heaven who does not want to be there.

To do so would be to deny us of the very free will He gave us. It would be an unloving thing to do.

If we choose an attachment to serious sin to the very end of our lives, we choose Hell.

That is all we know. You mentioned in post 25, point number two, that we do not know what happens at the very last moment of life.

Maybe, for example, Jesus stops time and reveals complete knowledge to us the second before we die and we make a final decision then. If this is the case, why would anyone choose Hell? All I know is, I ain't gonna bank on it.

 

[Cis.jd]

Instantly go to Heaven? Why assume I believe this doctrine? I've come to learn it's entirely un-biblical. From what I have learned, if I die (yes, if), I will know nothing, neither will I praise God, as I will be dead.

I don't believe in an immortal soul. I'm mortal. My ancestor, Adam, came from dust and returned to dust; I who was born, still will die, returning to dust, and the breath God gave me, shall return to God. That breath isn't me, nor my consciousness. I must wait on the resurrection; that is my hope through Christ, Jesus.

So you believe in an intermediate state or you believe that when we die, we remain dead/sleep until christ returns?

 

[Zetetica]

So you believe in an intermediate state or you believe that when we die, we remain dead/sleep until christ returns?

Can you clarify your question for me please?

 

[Cis.jd]

Can you clarify your question for me please?

Since you don't believe people instantly go to heaven or hell before they die then either you believe in an intermediate state or you believe people remain "asleep" and then resurrect when Jesus returns? Or something else.

 

[Zetetica]

Since you don't believe people instantly go to heaven or hell before they die then either you believe in an intermediate state or you believe people remain "asleep" and then resurrect when Jesus returns? Or something else.

They are dead, not conscious, without thought. Do you wish to call this "sleep"? Go ahead. Do they dream? Since they sleep, surely it is "dreamless sleep"? l choose to keep it simple, they are dead.

 

[martymonster]

Who are you to judge whether God is fair by your standard or not?

Well, God tells us what his standard is.


Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Zetetica]

Well, God tells us what his standard is.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I don't see the conflict.

 

[CleanSoul]

They are dead, not conscious, without thought.

Do you mean their bodies only? What about their soul?

 

[Zetetica]

Do you mean their bodies only? What about their soul?

I do not believe in an immortal soul, and no, I'm not an Annihilationist, not that you accused me of being or asked if I was.

Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[CleanSoul]

They are dead, not conscious, without thought. Do you wish to call this "sleep"? Go ahead. Do they dream? Since they sleep, surely it is "dreamless sleep"? l choose to keep it simple, they are dead.

Jesus said to the Good thief in Luke 23:43: "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Was Jesus wrong?

 

[martymonster]

I don't see the conflict.

You don't see that how he's saying that this is the standard, because that how God is? Wow!

 

[Zetetica]

Jesus said to the Good thief in Luke 23:43: "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Was Jesus wrong?

No.

 

[JacksBratt]

What I mean to say is, we do not have infallible knowledge of the future. We can have faith, hope, and live a decent Christian life to the best of our abilities, while responding to the Holy Spirit, but we cannot know for sure at this point in our lives, because we cannot predict the future.

I could give a scenario, but you can think of things that could happen to a man to make him feel like turning away from God through sin, including avenging his family, etc.

Sorry, you may have to start a different thread on this subject.. it has been argued at length before... that being the idea that one can lose their salvation..

I am of the view that you cannot. I will not veer from my original topic here though. If you want that discussion... start a thread.. I'll sit back and eat popcorn. LOL

 

[Zetetica]

You don't see that how he's saying that this is the standard, because that how God is? Wow!

I don't see the conflict between what I stated about "retards" and what you quoted.

 

[Zetetica]

Jesus said to the Good thief in Luke 23:43: "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Was Jesus wrong?

Luke 23:43 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

~~~
From my, "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible"

Verily I say unto thee — “Since thou speakest as to the king, with kingly authority speak I to thee.”
To-day — “Thou art prepared for a long delay before I come into My kingdom, but not a day‘s delay shall there be for thee; thou shalt not be parted from Me even for a moment, but together we shall go, and with Me, ere this day expire, shalt thou be in Paradise” (future bliss, 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). Learn (1) How “One is taken and another left”; (2) How easily divine teaching can raise the rudest and worst above the best instructed and most devoted servants of Christ; (3) How presumption and despair on a death hour are equally discountenanced here, the one in the impenitent thief, the other in his penitent fellow.
~~~

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Why would you assume you will immediately ascend into The Third Heaven, specifically, at physical death? You are not the thief who died by Him and neither am I.

 

[Cis.jd]

They are dead, not conscious, without thought. Do you wish to call this "sleep"? Go ahead. Do they dream? Since they sleep, surely it is "dreamless sleep"? l choose to keep it simple, they are dead.

Ok, i'm not going to debate or say anything against your views i just don't understand what you are saying.

Who is "they".. and since they are "dead" then they don't go anywhere including hell?
From here you said:
"Instantly go to Heaven? Why assume I believe this doctrine? I've come to learn it's entirely un-biblical. From what I have learned, if I die (yes, if), I will know nothing, neither will I praise God, as I will be dead."

So you don;t believe in going to heaven or hell?

 

[CleanSoul]

Sorry, you may have to start a different thread on this subject.. it has been argued at length before... that being the idea that one can lose their salvation..

I am of the view that you cannot. I will not veer from my original topic here though. If you want that discussion... start a thread.. I'll sit back and eat popcorn. LOL

These threads have a way of wandering off topic.

 

[Zetetica]

Ok, i'm not going to debate or say anything against your views i just don't understand what you are saying.

Who is "they".. and since they are "dead" then they don't go anywhere including hell?
From here you said:
"Instantly go to Heaven? Why assume I believe this doctrine? I've come to learn it's entirely un-biblical. From what I have learned, if I die (yes, if), I will know nothing, neither will I praise God, as I will be dead."

So you don;t believe in going to heaven or hell?

I'm actually not well versed on this matter. However, what I have gathered so far is that:

1. Sheol is "the grave" and it is inside the Earth (dry land).

2. Hell (Gehenna) is "the furnace", also inside the Earth (dry land).

3. There is an impossible to cross chasm between Hell and Abraham's Bosom.

4. Abraham's Bosom is where Lazarus was conforted while the rich man begged for even a drop of water to cool his tongue. This place is also inside the Earth (dry land).

5. Christ went into one of these places to preach to the dead which were there. Did He go to the furnace? No. To Abraham's Bosom? Unknown. To Sheol? Perhaps. I'm unclear on this matter yet and will need to do more study.
~~~

Where do I believe I personally go when I die? The grave, where I "sleep" until the resurrection. Could I be wrong about this? Yes. However, it's currently where I stand on this issue.

Furthermore, where did the thief go? Paradise, just as Christ said. I consider the thief an exception, not the rule.

 

[Cis.jd]

Where do I believe I personally go when I die? The grave, where I "sleep" until the resurrection. Could I be wrong about this? Yes. However, it's currently where I stand on this issue.

I see. That is fine. I just wanted to understand what your belief was...

 

[Zetetica]

I see. That is fine. I just wanted to understand what your belief was...

Happy to share.
~~~

Also, for clarity, Here is an illustration of the three places inside the Earth and how they could be laid out...

... and here is an illustration of how that could look in the world system or "universe" (whole creation)

... and here is a version of the above, illustrated inside a spherical Earth, in case you are repulsed by the first two illustrations...