Is there a "second chance" for salvation.

[CleanSoul]

Luke 23:43 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

~~~
From my, "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible"

Verily I say unto thee — “Since thou speakest as to the king, with kingly authority speak I to thee.”
To-day — “Thou art prepared for a long delay before I come into My kingdom, but not a day‘s delay shall there be for thee; thou shalt not be parted from Me even for a moment, but together we shall go, and with Me, ere this day expire, shalt thou be in Paradise” (future bliss, 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). Learn (1) How “One is taken and another left”; (2) How easily divine teaching can raise the rudest and worst above the best instructed and most devoted servants of Christ; (3) How presumption and despair on a death hour are equally discountenanced here, the one in the impenitent thief, the other in his penitent fellow.
~~~

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. such an one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Why would you assume you will immediately ascend into The Third Heaven, specifically, at physical death? You are not the thief who died by Him and neither am I.

This is not talking about death. It has to do with an experience in ecstasy where things were revealed to him.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Yes. Venial sins. Not ones involving Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or other mortal sins. Purgatory will take care of venial sins. Agree?

No because Purgatory is not Orthodox dogma and was invented after the schism.

 

[Zetetica]

This is not talking about death. It has to do with an experience in ecstasy where things were revealed to him.

Explain please.

 

[CleanSoul]

Another forum member, and myself, hijacked another thread when we got off topic in regards to humans having a second chance at salvation, after death.

My argument was that, basically, people fall into 5 categories when they die.
1/ Those that heard the Gospel and accepted it.
2/ Those that heard the Gospel and refused to accept Christ's Kingship and worthiness of worship, and the fact that He is their only way to the father.
3/ Those that heard the gospel, or any Christian message and disregard it as myth and empty hope.
4/ Those that are never mentally capable of comprehending the gospel message, even if they heard it..nor reaching a cognitive ability of being held accountable for their actions.
And,
5/ Those that never heard the gospel. Whether due to when they were alive or where they lived, or who they were around.

If these 5 categories, numbers 1 - 3 heard the good news and made a choice in regards to what they would do with this information...Only #1 will enter paradise. There is no "second chance" for 2 or 3

Category 4 are given a pass due to the fact they cannot be held accountable for things that they were not aware of.

Category 5 are judged by God, based on their life's works.

So...

Do people get a second chance after death, for salvation?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 393:

"It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.""272

272 St. John Damascene, De Fide orth. 2,4: PG 94, 877.

 

[CleanSoul]

No because Purgatory is not Orthodox dogma and was invented after the schism.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

 

[Not David]

I'm sorry to hear that you actually think that and I hope that someday you reach the point in your relationship with Christ that you know without a shadow of a doubt that he loves you, has saved you from sin, and will never leave you or forsake you. It's not about what you, me, or anyone has done, but what Jesus has done for us.

You shouldn't doubt of someone relationship with God because they don't have assurance. I can confess, I don't have assurance of salvation but I try to do my best to be close to God, but I am realistic and I know Paul said "workout your salvation with fear and trembling".

 

[Not David]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

What's your point?

 

[☦Marius☦]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

If that verse if proof of the specific Catholic doctrine of purgatory then I'm missing something. Just saying sin will be burned away doesn't mean the specific realm invented after the scism exists. I've opened Catholic Bibles and seen charts of what prayers subtract so many years from purgatory. Absolute nonesense.

 

[FineLinen]

Our Father's Purpose in the son of His love is NOT based on chance! This is not a heavenly lottery or gambling casino.

There is no first chance, there is no second chance, there is no chance!

His Plan=

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

 

[SkyWriting]

They are dead, not conscious, without thought. Do you wish to call this "sleep"? Go ahead. Do they dream? Since they sleep, surely it is "dreamless sleep"? l choose to keep it simple, they are dead.

Both ideas are correct:

John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sorry, you may have to start a different thread on this subject.. it has been argued at length before... that being the idea that one can lose their salvation..

I am of the view that you cannot. I will not veer from my original topic here though. If you want that discussion... start a thread.. I'll sit back and eat popcorn. LOL

People can backslide into legalism and recover back to Grace. But God's Holy Spirit does not come and go, then return. That is impossible. There are many believers here who are law bound and thus judgmental who can recover thanks to God's forgiveness.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm actually not well versed on this matter. However, what I have gathered so far is that:

1. Sheol is "the grave" and it is inside the Earth (dry land).

2. Hell (Gehenna) is "the furnace", also inside the Earth (dry land).

3. There is an impossible to cross chasm between Hell and Abraham's Bosom.

4. Abraham's Bosom is where Lazarus was conforted while the rich man begged for even a drop of water to cool his tongue. This place is also inside the Earth (dry land).

5. Christ went into one of these places to preach to the dead which were there. Did He go to the furnace? No. To Abraham's Bosom? Unknown. To Sheol? Perhaps. I'm unclear on this matter yet and will need to do more study.
~~~

Where do I believe I personally go when I die? The grave, where I "sleep" until the resurrection. Could I be wrong about this? Yes. However, it's currently where I stand on this issue.

Furthermore, where did the thief go? Paradise, just as Christ said. I consider the thief an exception, not the rule.

I studied it as well. Where Jesus went is a mystery. And who He spoke to there is also. I was just saying that Jesus intended to change somebody with His speaking. So a possibility exists that Jesus will speak to everyone before the judgment day. People who wish to avoid God, will get their wish granted. Most likely, the little children after death will choose The Father when given the chance.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[martymonster]

Both ideas are correct:

John 11:11-14
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There's more to it though. The reason death is sleep as far as Christ is concerned, is because that's not what death is. Death is something spiritual. Physical things mean nothing to God.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Physical death is only a shadow. Spiritual death (being carnally minded) is real death. Of course, neither is a problem for God, as he is able to raise us from both.

 

[Cis.jd]

If that verse if proof of the specific Catholic doctrine of purgatory then I'm missing something. Just saying sin will be burned away doesn't mean the specific realm invented after the scism exists. I've opened Catholic Bibles and seen charts of what prayers subtract so many years from purgatory. Absolute nonesense.

what is the EO interpretation or concept of this intermediate state? "Sin being burned away" or anything with fire isn't accepted as literate to most catholics.

 

[Zetetica]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

If sin can be worked off in purgatory, surely Christ's sacrifice is irrelevant, other than to prevent an age of torment in purgatory, rather than either everlasting torment or total destruction? Why should anyone follow Jesus Christ if all sin, other than the unforgivable sin, can be worked off?

 

[Zetetica]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Context is key.

1 Corinthians 3:10-16 KJV
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
~~~

From my, "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible"

it shall be revealed by fire — it, that is, “every man‘s work.” Rather, “He,” the Lord, whose day it is (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2 Thessalonians 1:8). Translate literally, “is being revealed (the present in the Greek implies the certainty and nearness of the event, Revelation 22:10, Revelation 22:20) in fire” (Malachi 3:3; Malachi 4:1). The fire (probably figurative here, as the gold, hay, etc.) is not purgatory (as Rome teaches, that is, purificatory and punitive), but probatory, not restricted to those dying in “venial sin”; the supposed intermediate class between those entering heaven at once, and those dying in mortal sin who go to hell, but universal, testing the godly and ungodly alike (2 Corinthians 5:10; compare Mark 9:49). This fire is not till the last day, the supposed fire of purgatory begins at death. The fire of Paul is to try the works, the fire of purgatory the persons, of men. Paul‘s fire causes “loss” to the sufferers; Rome‘s purgatory, great gain, namely, heaven at last to those purged by it, if only it were true. Thus this passage, quoted by Rome for, is altogether against, purgatory. “It was not this doctrine that gave rise to prayers for the dead; but the practice of praying for the dead [which crept in from the affectionate but mistaken solicitude of survivors] gave rise to the doctrine” [Whately].

 

[Cis.jd]

If sin can be worked off in purgatory, surely Christ's sacrifice is irrelevant, other than to prevent an age of torment in purgatory, rather than either everlasting torment or total destruction? Why should anyone follow Jesus Christ if all sin, other than the unforgivable sin, can be worked off?

It doesn't. It's just a much more realistic view of it. Not every christian lives a life that is completely sinless.. especially sins that have inflicted harm towards others . Jesus isn't just a savior he is also the righteous and just judge. Saying that people just shoot into heaven due to them being believers while whatever unrepented sins gets swept under the rug undermines his role as the Just Judge. Both savior and judge have to be equal.

 

[Zetetica]

It doesn't. It's just a much more realistic view of it. Not every christian lives a life that is completely sinless.. especially sins that have inflicted harm towards others . Jesus isn't just a savior he is also the righteous and just judge. Saying that people just shoot into heaven due to them being believers while whatever unrepented sins gets swept under the rug undermines his role as the Just Judge. Both savior and judge have to be equal.

Where is it written that "people just shoot into heaven" for being believers? I don't believe such a thing. However, I also don't believe Christ's sacrifice and forgiveness excludes any sin, outside of the one which can not be forgiven. Purgatory is false.

 

[Cis.jd]

Where is it written that "people just shoot into heaven" for being believers? I don't believe such a thing. However, I also don't believe Christ's sacrifice and forgiveness excludes any sin, outside of the one which can not be forgiven. Purgatory is false.

You should talk to several protestants here. Not all protestants believe that when we die, we remain in the grave until Jesus returns. We can verses all day but many have different views on "what happens after we die". Intermediate states such as purgatory has different views for different christians.

 

[Zetetica]

You should talk to several protestants here. Not all protestants believe that when we die, we remain in the grave until Jesus returns. We can verses all day but many have different views on "what happens after we die". Intermediate states such as purgatory has different views for different christians.

Yes, I know there are various views on this matter. However, purgatory isn’t one I’m going to accept. I am open to what can be proven through scripture, providing the method of study used is exegesis.