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Is there a scientific consensus that evolution is a fact?

Papias

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Buster and I agreed to start a thread discussing whether or not there was a current scientific consensus on whether or not evolution was supported by enough evidence to be considered a fact. Other "facts" would be things like whether or not the roman empire existed or if the earth goes around the sun.

This is not the same as whether or not a lot of people who haven't examined the evidence as scientists see evolution as a fact. Many polls have shown that around 50% of the US population are YEC, and that point is neither disputed nor relevant to this thread.

I'll open this up with a data point.

The 1997 gallup poll of scientists here: Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

lists support for evolution at 95%. That sure sounds like a consensus to me.

It also may be useful to look closely at the lists of scientists who reject evolution that are shown by creationist groups.

Papias
 

busterdog

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How is a gallup poll in the United States determinative of anything? How is it that your sample of American scientists is to impress anyone at all? YOu first demonstrate the superiority of your sample. But your sample deserves no such special consideration. THerefore, there isn't consensus.


In Nigeria, the Muslim population shows strong anti-evolution tendencies. In academic discussion, there is evidence for a divide, just as Ben Stein told us there was in the West.

Smart People See Ghosts

Looking back however, I think not having been taught evolution in secondary school was indeed a blessing because then I was left to study it all be myself and so had the opportunity to weight the evidence against my knowledge of the Biblical account of creation which I was raised in, and was, as I still am, also very well versed in. I am almost certain that even if there were teachers, it is unlikely that any will teach it well enough to present the evidence and allow the pupils make up their mind.
My comparative anatomy lecturer in medical school after discussing all the interesting and beautiful evidence for evolution, ended the lecture by saying it was all crap, and that we should take none of it any seriously beyond the point of recanting (sic) them during exams. Might that be the reason: the lack of unbiased exposure to the basic tenets of evolutionary theory? Might this be what some Americans are protecting against when they say they don’t want evolution taught in their schools?
What do you think? Are you an evolutionist? Why, if yes, and why not if not? Were you introduced to the theory of evolution by natural selection in secondary school? What do you think the effect of that might be if you were or might have been if you were not? Do you think an evolutionist could at the same time “have a personal relationship with God?”
Thinking about Evolution – NigeriansTalk


In your figures, 44% of educated Americans accept some form of creationism. Only scientists count?

How many scientists believe in God in your sample? Even by the admissions of the strident and brutal Eugenie Scott, what those same scientists believe in is pretty bloody vague kind of God. How exactly does one allow this same group define consensus? They can't quite figure out who is responsible even for their own evolution.

Do Scientists Really Reject God?


In a recent issue of RNCSE, Larry Witham reported on research he and historian Edward Larson carried out to investigate the religious beliefs of scientists.They had surveyed a sample of 1000 individuals listed in American Men and Women of Science, (AM&WS), using questions originally asked by the Gallup organization in a series of polls of American religious views.The report, entitled "Many scientists see God's hand in evolution", concluded that although scientists were quite different from other Americans in their views of "extreme" positions— such as young earth creationism and atheism—they were very similar to other Americans in the "middle" or "theistic evolution" position.

In the table below, the full wording of Gallup's question 1 is, "Humans were created pretty much in their present form about 10 000 years ago." The difference between scientists and other Americans is striking. Scientists also respond quite differently to the third question, "Man evolved over millions of years from less developed forms. God had no part in this process." But scientists' responses to Gallup's "theistic evolution" question—"Man evolved over millions of years from less developed forms of life, but God guided the process, including the creation of Man"—directly mirrors that of the general public. The "middle ground" is apparently equally attractive to scientists as it is to the general public.

GALLUP EVOLUTION QUESTIONS
Question Scientists Public 1. Special Creation, 10 000 years 5% 46% 2. Evolution, God Guided 40% 40% 3. Evolution, God had no part 55% 9%
Larson and Witham also asked the AM&WS sample a second set of questions, repeating a survey performed in 1914 by sociologist James H Leuba. Leuba had found that, in contrast to the high levels of religious belief in the general American public, scientists exhibited low levels of belief in God. He predicted that over time, more and more scientists would give up their belief in God, as scientific knowledge replaced what he considered to be superstition. Larson and Witham found to the contrary that disbelief among scientists remained stable: 58% in 1914 and 60% in 1976 (Larson and Witham 1997).

Leuba had taken a subsample of more prominent or "greater" scientists in the AM&WS sample and reported that they exhibited a higher rate of disbelief (70%) compared to less prominent AM&WS scientists. Recently, Larson and Witham asked Leuba's questions of members of the National Academy of Sciences, since AM&WS no longer lists "greater" scientists. They claimed to find that NAS scientists had higher levels of disbelief and agnosticism, reporting "near universal rejection of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists" (Larson and Witham 1998).

Are you confused? How can scientists be so like other Americans in one survey and so different in another? We can find part of the explanation in the considerable differences between the questions asked by Gallup and those asked by Leuba.

The wording of questions in any survey can influence the results. Gallup's questions are quite straightforward, well designed to reveal people's attitudes towards evolution. For reasons that will become important later in this article, a question that requests an opinion on only one issue is superior to one which queries attitudes about two or more.

First, let's look at Leuba's questions, which are, to be charitable, ambiguous. The "personal belief" question attempts to ascertain belief not just in some sort of God, but a very specific kind of personal God.
1. I believe in a God in intellectual and effective communication with humankind, i.e., a God to whom one might pray in expectation of receiving an answer. By "answer", I mean more than the subjective psychological effects of prayer.​
1. I believe in a [personal] God...
AM&WS NAS 1914 1998 27.7 7.0
Indeed, the percentage of "yes" answers in 1998 is strikingly lower than that in 1914. Does this mean that fewer scientists believe in God? Not necessarily. Consider how specific this question is. To answer "yes" to this question, one would have to believe that God is not only in communication with humankind, which many religious people do believe, but that God is in both intellectual and effective communication. What is the meaning of "intellectual" communication? "Effective" communication? Someone who believed that God communicated with humankind but not "intellectually" (whatever that means) would have to answer "no." Is "effective" used in the modern sense of the word meaning "something that works well", or in the more archaic (1914) use of the term meaning "to bring about"? Do scientists reading this question today interpret it in the same way as those in 1914?

The clause about answering prayers is also problematic.There are schools of theology that hold that God is personal in the sense of watching over and caring for humankind, but nonetheless, does not answer prayers. We do not know whether members of the general public would respond similarly or differently than scientists do to this definition of God: we do know that there is a wide variety of definitions of God.

Not only have there been changes in theology since 1914, which may be reflected in different Americans' definitions of God, but there have been improvements in survey research techniques. Experienced pollsters simply do not ask paragraph- long questions anymore because they know that they elicit contingent (and therefore difficult to interpret) answers!

Most educated, late 20th century Americans are "test wise" and know that the more components to a question, the more likely it is that the question is "wrong". I doubt that this was the case in 1914, when citizens 'were exposed to far fewer surveys than they are today. I surmise that modern survey-wise scientists would be more likely to answer "no" to a multi-component question like Leuba's number 1 than "yes".

What about Leuba's second question?

2. I do not believe in a God
as defined above.
AM&WS NAS 1914 1998 52.7 72.2
How might this question be interpreted? There is more than one way—which means it's not a good question.You might answer "true" if you did not believe in God at all, which is how Leuba, and apparently Witham and Larson, interpret the question; they describe these answers as demonstrating "personal disbelief." But you might answer "true" if you believed in a different kind of God than Leuba defined! A "yes" on question 2 would include both non-believers and those who believe in a less personal God than that of question 1.

Leuba's third question also allows for multiple interpretations.

3. I have no definite belief
regarding this question.
AM&WS NAS 1914 1998 20.9 20.8
Well, there has been no change in the number of "yes" answers over time, but what does the question mean? To me, a "yes" means "I don't think much about religion in general" rather than meaning, as Leuba, Larson and Witham conclude, "I have 'doubt or agnosticism'." Nonbelievers might very likely answer this question "false", because they do have definite views on this question! Most of the atheists and agnostics that I know have quite definite views about belief in God! Just as with the other Leuba questions, a "yes" answer reflects more than one possible opinion. Positive answers to this question include those who do not believe, as well as those who are not especially interested in the topic.

What one might conclude from the 1998 Larson and Witham study of NAS scientists is that belief in Leuba's definition of a personal God has decreased over time among scientists. The main problem, however, is that Leuba's questions are not well designed for investigating the religious views of scientists (or anyone else).

The Gallup questions, which deal with views of God's role in evolution, rather than general belief or disbelief in God, are far less ambiguous. When these questions were used (Larson and Witham 1997), the answers showed that a large proportion (40%) of prominent scientists believe in a God that is sufficiently personal or interactive with humankind that human evolution is guided or planned.

The title of the recent Larson and Witham article in Nature, "Leading scientists still reject God" is premature without reliable data upon which to base it.

References

Larson EJ, Witham L. Scientists are still keeping the faith [Commentary]. Nature 1997 Apr 3; 386:435-6.

Larson EJ, Witham L. Leading scientists still reject God. Nature 1998 Jul; 394:313.

Witham L. Many scientists see God's hand in evolution. RNCSE 17(6):33.
http://ncse.com/rncse/18/2/do-scientists-really-reject-god

The questions that Eugenie Scott threw out and her confessions on such matters were pretty telling. She seems to think there is some point to be made about whether God is intelligent and able to communicate. That issue is hardly separate from the whole issue of what origins are. A very large part of the world believes that these communications are the basis of our origins as well as our knowledge of those origins. This other body of scientists that you use to define consensus seems to want to quibble about God's communication abilities and power to answer prayer. Oh, gee, yeah, these are the geniuses we need to hear from!

By analogy, if we have to think really hard about whether or not God is modeled better on the Sistine Chapel or Snoop Dog CDs, maybe we are talking less about a real GOd at that point and talking more about our confusion. Eugenie Scott's supposedly insightful distinctions are absurd and show she barely has a grip on what it means to believe in God in the first place.

THe point is that there is not such thing a world wide consensus without a complete theory on which to agree. Evolution is a partial hodge podge without a beginning point. For GOd's sake, Darwinism is even tossing randomness and huff puffing about this as a minor change in a theory with great integrity. Such silliness is obvious, and in this context, the rest of the world needn't be embarrassed in such company. As such, the rest of the world can hardly be written off as irrelevant when it is quite willing to articulate a basis for our origins that American science avoids or about which it is admittedly speculative.

I am quite aware that abiogenesis is not part of Darwinism as it wishes to define itself. My point is that because Darwinism doesnt come to grips with it, that the so called arbiters of consensus are not a credible bunch. Said otherwise, if you self-select to determine what is consensus, you don't have one.

Lets also not get confused about the standard of proof here. You are arguing to prove consensus. THat should be an enormously high standard of proof -- like proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in the case of murder.

If one rephrases the question and simply asks which theories are reasonable, I say that evolution has a certain elegance and a good body of evidence behind it -- from a scientific perspective. But, to try to support it as the only credible theory, there is no reason not to be merciless in attacking its supposed supremacy.
 
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Assyrian

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Hi Busterdog, nice to see you back.
THe point is that there is not such thing a world wide consensus without a complete theory on which to agree. Evolution is a partial hodge podge without a beginning point. Meaning that the rest of the world can hardly be written off as irrelevant when it is quite willing to articulate
Interesting argument. Creationists don't have to worry about the scientific consensus on evolution because there can be no scientific consensus without a complete theory. Is there any area of science that meets your requirement? At very least, until CERN comes with evidence for super symmetry in the particles that make up atom we cannot claim any scientific consensus on atomic theory. Even if supersymmetry is found that will probably just be the beginning of a whole new area of study rather that its completion. So any creationists who wants to deny the existence of atoms is perfectly justified. Why shouldn't they be if there is no scientific consensus on the theory? Likewise, we haven't worked out all the details of the solar system Kuiper belt and Oort cloud, there is still disagreement over what constitutes a planet, and as for understanding what gravity is which is supposed to keep the planets in obit around the sun, well... we don't even have a Higgs yet. So no complete theory on the solar system, so no possible worldwide scientific consensus about it. Perhaps you can tell where I am going here. Anyone for geocentrism? According to creationism the field is still wide open. And lets see, what do we still not know about the structure of the earth, that some scientists arrogantly claim is round...
 
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busterdog

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Hi Busterdog, nice to see you back.
Interesting argument. Creationists don't have to worry about the scientific consensus on evolution because there can be no scientific consensus without a complete theory. Is there any area of science that meets your requirement? At very least, until CERN comes with evidence for super symmetry in the particles that make up atom we cannot claim any scientific consensus on atomic theory. Even if supersymmetry is found that will probably just be the beginning of a whole new area of study rather that its completion. So any creationists who wants to deny the existence of atoms is perfectly justified. Why shouldn't they be if there is no scientific consensus on the theory? Likewise, we haven't worked out all the details of the solar system Kuiper belt and Oort cloud, there is still disagreement over what constitutes a planet, and as for understanding what gravity is which is supposed to keep the planets in obit around the sun, well... we don't even have a Higgs yet. So no complete theory on the solar system, so no possible worldwide scientific consensus about it. Perhaps you can tell where I am going here. Anyone for geocentrism? According to creationism the field is still wide open. And lets see, what do we still not know about the structure of the earth, that some scientists arrogantly claim is round...

As you suggest, I think there is practically no theory that can meet these requirements. That doesnt mean we don't have any good theories. I might even concede Darwinism is a decent theory, but falls far from being consensus. The consensus thing just doesnt work.

The American academics might say that there is a strong majority for their view of evolution, within their particular circle. But, hunger for knowledge, by definition, doesnt regard matters such as evolution as settled. I think that is implied in your comment, though we apply different emphases.

At the very least, there are unsettled areas within evolution where maybe the creationists come close to an answer, even if they are wrong about common descent. I would even say that, in reading Darwins writing about his spiritual journey, that the Dogone at least have a purpose and divine order in what they put forth as their origin story -- even if it is all sexualized and, as such, goofy. http://www.gateway-africa.com/stories/Dogon_Creation_Myth.html
 
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Dark_Lite

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At the very least, there are unsettled areas within evolution where maybe the creationists come close to an answer,http://www.gateway-africa.com/stories/Dogon_Creation_Myth.html

Nah. There isn't anything creationists come close to answering affirmatively in science. The entire creationist movement, YECism in particular, is based on a rejection of evolution and holding to an outdated interpretation of the Bible, and redefining science (or just making stuff up; usually both) so they can fit the existing evidence into their framework. OEC isn't as bad as YEC, but the OEC movement doesn't really bring anything to the table. They accept that the universe is old, and then just deny evolution and don't really have any other explanation for things besides "God did it."

Can you point to one scientific thing that creationism can describe better than evolutionary theory?
 
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Assyrian

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As you suggest, I think there is practically no theory that can meet these requirements. That doesnt mean we don't have any good theories.
And it doesn't mean there can't be consensus about what the theories have established.

I might even concede Darwinism is a decent theory, but falls far from being consensus. The consensus thing just doesnt work.
No, trying to conflate consensus with completness does not work. There was consensus about heliocentrism long ago even though our understanding of the solar system and gravity still isn't complete.

The American academics might say that there is a strong majority for their view of evolution, within their particular circle. But, hunger for knowledge, by definition, doesnt regard matters such as evolution as settled. I think that is implied in your comment, though we apply different emphases.

At the very least, there are unsettled areas within evolution where maybe the creationists come close to an answer, even if they are wrong about common descent. I would even say that, in reading Darwins writing about his spiritual journey, that the Dogone at least have a purpose and divine order in what they put forth as their origin story -- even if it is all sexualized and, as such, goofy. Dogon Creation Myth
Creationist have one thing right, they understand that God created everything, here they know something that Dawkins does not, though they have got every other claim about the history of the universe and life on earth wrong. At least the Dogon seem to have got the Sirius star system right. But even the bit Creationists got right, knowing God is Creator, they haven't even got a particulary good understanding of what that means. They think God can only operate through the miraculous, not through natural processes, even natural processes he created. So something happening naturally must mean, for the creationist, that God is not involved. It is not even a view that can hold consistently, not if they thank God before their meals. It is a dichotomy that only really exists in their minds when they think about creation. The uniquely modern creationist take on creation is a major departure from the understanding of the church through the ages that God operates both through the natural and the supernatural. So no, I do not think creationists are coming close to an answer, they are wandering further away from one.
 
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busterdog

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Nah. There isn't anything creationists come close to answering affirmatively in science. The entire creationist movement, YECism in particular, is based on a rejection of evolution and holding to an outdated interpretation of the Bible, and redefining science (or just making stuff up; usually both) so they can fit the existing evidence into their framework. OEC isn't as bad as YEC, but the OEC movement doesn't really bring anything to the table. They accept that the universe is old, and then just deny evolution and don't really have any other explanation for things besides "God did it."

Not rejectionism of everything, just silly arrogance like this.

Can you point to one scientific thing that creationism can describe better than evolutionary theory?

Try google.
 
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Papias

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Philadiddle wrote:

Define "consensus".

I don't think it would need to be 100% to be a consensus, 99.9% would do. Do both sides agree on that?

I agree. How about 80%? After all, one can always find nutcases in any field, since we are talking about humans here, which vary. In an election, 60% is considered a landslide.

As others have pointed out, a theory need not be complete for consensus support. The solar system example given is good, plus, the theory of evolution's modern form (known as the "modern synthesis") is more complete than a lot of other well accepted theories, such as the theory of gravity or the germ theory of disease. Any area of real scientific research will have active areas, almost by definition.

Buster wrote:
In your figures, 44% of educated Americans accept some form of creationism. Only scientists count?

Well, yes. That's because we are talking about the "scientific consensus". I thought I was pretty clear about that in the opening post.

How many scientists believe in God in your sample?

Let's stick to relevant points. For instance, the opinions of the general population in in the US or Nigeria doesn't help us understand what the opinion of scientists is. Also, let's try to avoid assertions made without evidence.


How is a gallup poll in the United States determinative of anything?
Um, because it is actual data. If you want to make an assertion of something, provide data.

How is it that your sample of American scientists is to impress anyone at all?
Um, because it is actual data. If you want to make an assertion of something, provide data.

THerefore, there isn't consensus.

OK, that's an assertion. Waiting for data........

Stories about an individual are not data. The Gallup poll included thousands of people. Anecdotal stories are not data.

OK, more data, anyone?

Papias
 
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Calypsis4

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Buster and I agreed to start a thread discussing whether or not there was a current scientific consensus on whether or not evolution was supported by enough evidence to be considered a fact. Other "facts" would be things like whether or not the roman empire existed or if the earth goes around the sun.

This is not the same as whether or not a lot of people who haven't examined the evidence as scientists see evolution as a fact. Many polls have shown that around 50% of the US population are YEC, and that point is neither disputed nor relevant to this thread.

I'll open this up with a data point.

The 1997 gallup poll of scientists here: Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

lists support for evolution at 95%. That sure sounds like a consensus to me.

It also may be useful to look closely at the lists of scientists who reject evolution that are shown by creationist groups.

Papias

Here is the Gallup poll listed at NeuroLogica Blog » New Gallup Poll on Creation and Evolution

080620Evolution_2_jdjdjd.gif


So it's 44% creation by God --36% God guided evolution--14% evolution with no God involved.

As far as biblical Christians are concerned it is what the Lord says in His word that is truth about origins and not a consensus of scientists opinions. Majority opinion does not determine truth, God does.

We believe him and not the brainwashed individuals who believe in wrongful interpretations and tortured logic as it concerns the available scientific facts.

"For in six days the Lord God made the heavens and the earth..." Moses in Exodus 20:11.
 
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Calypsis4

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Nah. There isn't anything creationists come close to answering affirmatively in science. The entire creationist movement, YECism in particular, is based on a rejection of evolution and holding to an outdated interpretation of the Bible, and redefining science (or just making stuff up; usually both) so they can fit the existing evidence into their framework. OEC isn't as bad as YEC, but the OEC movement doesn't really bring anything to the table. They accept that the universe is old, and then just deny evolution and don't really have any other explanation for things besides "God did it."

Can you point to one scientific thing that creationism can describe better than evolutionary theory?

The six day creation doctrine will NEVER be outdated because it is now and has always been the truth of the origins of our world and the scientific facts support it, not evolution. Evolution is a joke believed in by people who should know better.

NGC4622diagram_m.jpg


The pinwheel galaxy (NGC4622) with outer arms that are moving clockwise(!) and the inner arms are moving counterclockwise(!). So if this celestial object was not designed this way purposely by the Creator then just how did stellar 'evolution' accomplish this physics anomaly?
 
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Dark_Lite

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Creationisms IS science. Evolution is a myth.

Then post something scientific that creationism explains far more accurately than evolutionary theory. Things that don't count:

-Copy and pasted articles from AiG that attack evolutionary theory based on strawmen.
-Anything that actually attacks evolution. You need to find something that phrases a claim positively. If evolution were ever falsified, that would not magically prove YECism.
 
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busterdog

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Then post something scientific that creationism explains far more accurately than evolutionary theory. Things that don't count:

-Copy and pasted articles from AiG that attack evolutionary theory based on strawmen.
-Anything that actually attacks evolution. You need to find something that phrases a claim positively. If evolution were ever falsified, that would not magically prove YECism.

I have a better idea. I will just post stuff that pleases creationists. You just keep rejecting everything creationists say, which just entrenches creationists even more.

Most creationists are not here to dialogue. We are just mucking up the Evol. party line so that the odd lurker can see the truth now and again. You can pretend you want to dialogue all you want. Most creationists are not fooled anymore.
 
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busterdog

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The six day creation doctrine will NEVER be outdated because it is now and has always been the truth of the origins of our world and the scientific facts support it, not evolution. Evolution is a joke believed in by people who should know better.

NGC4622diagram_m.jpg


The pinwheel galaxy (NGC4622) with outer arms that are moving clockwise(!) and the inner arms are moving counterclockwise(!). So if this celestial object was not designed this way purposely by the Creator then just how did stellar 'evolution' accomplish this physics anomaly?

Maybe this is not "science," because the facts are so obviously inconsistent with evolution (well, conventional cosmology), that a child can see it? Just trying to help. Maybe you need a degree to get it wrong.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Most creationists are not here to dialogue. We are just mucking up the Evol. party line so that the odd lurker can see the truth now and again. You can pretend you want to dialogue all you want. Most creationists are not fooled anymore.

That's a very interesting statement.
 
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Calypsis4

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Then post something scientific that creationism explains far more accurately than evolutionary theory. Things that don't count:

-Copy and pasted articles from AiG that attack evolutionary theory based on strawmen.
-Anything that actually attacks evolution. You need to find something that phrases a claim positively. If evolution were ever falsified, that would not magically prove YECism.

Don't try and dictate to me what does and doesn't 'count'. I am not interested in such an opinion. I could just as easily pull the same thing on you as it concerns the 'scientists' at 'talk/origins'.

There are lots of scientific reasons for a young earth. First and formost is the historical chronology listed by Moses in Genesis 5 & 11. I have seen no skeptic opinion that would invalidate the veracity of that lineage of early man. Not only so, but much of it has been verified historically by historian Bill Cooper in his work After the Flood in which he traces the royal families of Europe all the way back to pre-flood times.

Secondly, the presence of Carbon-14 in diamonds and other minerals speaks loudly of a young earth.

http://www.icr.org/pdf/research/AGUC-14_Poster_Baumgardner.pdf

Thirdly, there are a host of evidences from the heavens that reveal a young universe...by way of example:

orion-nebula-McDonald.jpg


Stars emerging from the same point of origin moving in opposite directions that if their velocity is extrapolated backwards, could not be more than ten thousand yrs old.

NGC7319quasarLabeled-1.jpg


Galaxy NGC7319 with what is supposed to be a quasar 12 billion miles beyond the galaxy...but the quasar is in front of and/or between the galaxy and the earth, the red shift theory notwithstanding. This suggests that the distance of the stars as is commonly believed is not nearly what we have long thought.
 
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busterdog

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Well, yes. That's because we are talking about the "scientific consensus". I thought I was pretty clear about that in the opening post.

Then, I can just decide to talk about a creationist consensus if I want to? I am challenging the relevance of your very limited sample.

THere are any number of ways to change the sample to include educated, thinking people who's views are as relevant. If the biologists of American academia wish to exclude engineers, school teachers, much less African academics from their considerations, they are welcome to polarize themselves as such. I mean, what else haven't they done to make it clear that they don't give a fig for the thought process of the rest of humanity.

Let's stick to relevant points. For instance, the opinions of the general population in in the US or Nigeria doesn't help us understand what the opinion of scientists is. Also, let's try to avoid assertions made without evidence.

Unless we are challenging the desire of American biologists to make themselves the sole arbiters of all issues bearing on evolution.

Um, because it is actual data. If you want to make an assertion of something, provide data.



OK, that's an assertion. Waiting for data........

No need, we already know the public thinks quite differently.

Here is more interesting data:

“…a recent survey published in the leading science journal Nature conclusively showed that the National Academy of Science is anti-God to the core. A survey of all 517 NAS members in biological and physical sciences resulted in just over half responding. 72.2 % were overtly atheistic, 20.8 % agnostic, and only 7.0 % believed in a personal God. Belief in God and immortality was lowest among biologists. It is likely that those who didn’t respond were unbelievers as well, so the study probably underestimates the level of anti-God belief in the NAS. The unbelief is far higher than the percentage among scientists in general, or in the whole population.”

http://creationwiki.org/Many_current_scientists_reject_evolution

All we are doing is hacking away at the illusion of objectivity among the gatekeepers of "consensus." In other words, 72% of the NAS are THROWING OUT DATA on God.

Stories about an individual are not data. The Gallup poll included thousands of people. Anecdotal stories are not data.

Sure they are relevant. That site references debate among intellectuals on the basic proposition. We already know that outside of Western academia, the numbers are different. The consensus model doesn't care what their own fellow citizens think (44% accepting YEC in some form), let alone the rest of the world. What exactly is more data going to tell us?
 
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