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Is there a scientific consensus that evolution is a fact?

29apples

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Tell the readers which of the many examples I posted and then show the fallacy.

Sure.

You contest that the theory of evolution is false and creationism is true (post 10). You then talk abut stellar evolution is false and provide your evidence and whatnot (post 12). And then conclude that evolution is a myth and creationism is science (post 13).

A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance. The original topic insinuates that the ToE is fact and if there is a consensus. You contest that evolution is false. You then divert the thread by talking about stellar evolution.

Now it seems like you use the word "evolution" synonymously with the ToE and whatever other term that has "evolution" in it such as stellar evolution. The problem is that the only relation the ToE and stellar evolution has is the word "evolution" but in reality the two terms are mutually exclusive.

Now I did make an assumption. It was that since you used the word "evolution" I assumed you were referring to the ToE. If you were referring to stellar evolution from post 10 and forward, then I think your post was misleading but I would retract my red herring statement since you did not say that the ToE is a myth.

So Calypsis, I have a question. Which evolution(s) are you against? ToE? Stellar evolution? Chemical evolution? oxygen evolution? Differential evolution? There are many terms that use the word "evolution"
 
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Assyrian

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Nope. Just evolution. Atoms and heliocentrism are scientific. ;)
It strikes me as pretty random which sciences creationists choose to accept and which to reject. The arguments Creationists use against evolution could be applied equally well, or badly, to the sciences they accept without hesitation. Busterdog’s argument applies across the board. It is not even a case of disagreeing with science that contradicts scripture, because in other areas they quite happily search around for ways to interpret scripture to fit the science they accept. Yet literalists in the past had problems with the sciences the creationists today accept without question and interpret scripture to fit. They see the science as unquestionably right, and God inspired scripture, so that is what scripture obviously must mean. So the scripture is interpreted to fit what they know must be true. Yet go back in the history of the church and you will find literalists who rejected these sciences because they contradicted their literal interpretation. The only consistent explanation I can see is that the problem people have is with the most recent scientific advances, that it takes time, a few centuries, for science to filter through so that everybody accepts it. In the early church it was the round earth that some literalists had a problem with. Centuries later everybody knew the earth was round, but heliocentrism was the science that questioned the credibility of the Word of God. It took a couple of generations for the literal interpretation of the geocentric passages to be dropped and heliocentrism to be widely accepted. Now it is the age of the earth and evolution that contradict the literal interpretation but almost everyone accepts the earth goes round the sun even though for a millennium and a half the church interpreted geocentric passages literally, almost no one insists on interpreting those passages literal now, even when they insist Genesis has to be literal. Oddly enough, creationists now cannot even understand how people interpreted these passages literally and saw them describing a geocentric cosmos, even though this was the obvious literal interpretation for one and a half millennia.
 
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Calypsis4

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29apples

Sure.

You contest that the theory of evolution is false and creationism is true (post 10).

Yes, uh huh. That's right. Jesus said so, "But from the beginning of the creation God made the male and female." Mark 10:6 Now how do you squeeze evolution out of that statement....or any other statement in the Bible?

You then talk abut stellar evolution is false and provide your evidence and whatnot (post 12). And then conclude that evolution is a myth and creationism is science (post 13).

Exactly. And what I said was true and my examples were solid. You just don't like being confronted with the truth.

A red herring is an idiom referring to a device which intends to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance.

The subject is evolution and how it is in opposition to creation as the Bible teaches it. If the moderators think that what I posted is not appropriate for this thread then they are free to move those posts. I don't mind.

The original topic insinuates that the ToE is fact and if there is a consensus. You contest that evolution is false. You then divert the thread by talking about stellar evolution.

Whatever. The truth is that you don't like having your beliefs in a mythical system exposed for what it is.

Now it seems like you use the word "evolution" synonymously with the ToE and whatever other term that has "evolution" in it such as stellar evolution. The problem is that the only relation the ToE and stellar evolution has is the word "evolution" but in reality the two terms are mutually exclusive.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Defintion: "Evolution in the extended sense can be defined as a directional and essentially irreversible process occurring in time, which in its course gives rise to an increase of variety and an increasingly high level of organization in its products. Our present knowledge indeed forces us to the view that the whole of reality is evolution—a single process of self-transformation."2 Julian Huxley: "Evolution and Genetics" in What is Man? (Ed. by J. R. Newman, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1955), p.278.

Now I did make an assumption. It was that since you used the word "evolution" I assumed you were referring to the ToE. If you were referring to stellar evolution from post 10 and forward, then I think your post was misleading but I would retract my red herring statement since you did not say that the ToE is a myth.

Refer to the above quoted definition.

So Calypsis, I have a question. Which evolution(s) are you against? ToE? Stellar evolution? Chemical evolution? oxygen evolution? Differential evolution? There are many terms that use the word "evolution"

Answer: All of it. I am an ex-evolutionist. You and your comrades have given me reason to remain an ex-evolutionist. You've said nothing of any real value and given no evidence for evolution either on this thread or any other that I have seen.
 
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Papias

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Calypsis wrote:

The subject is evolution and how it is in opposition to creation as the Bible teaches it.

Um, no. The subject of this thread is whether or not there is a scientific consensus in support of evolution. That's the topic of this thread. Whether or not evolution is a fact is not the topic - there are plenty of threads on that, as you know. Could you please read the opening post and tell me where it states that this thread is about the evidence for evolution, or the Bible?

Anything that doesn't directly relate to the presence or absence of a scientific consensis is off topic, and likely a red herring. Look, we are discussing evidenc in other threads - if we can't stay on topic, we can't have a meaningful discussion, right?
I bring that up again also because you posted.
We don't care. The majority doesn't determine truth.

Right, the majority doesn't determine truth - nonetheless, this thread is to discuss where the majority of scientists fall, because we time and again hear creationists claiming that scientists are divided in their support for evolution, or that evolution is a "Theory in Crisis". So posters on this thread should indeed care if there is a scientific consensus or not, because this thread is not about rocks or any such, but only to discuss whether or not there is a scientific consensus in support of evolution, per the OP, which never states that evolution is a fact.

On this thread, we do care what the majority of scientists think - if only because that is the explicity stated topic of this thread.


I have that list. One is a complete list of those who reject Darwinian evolution to one degree or another.

Great! Can you paste it to post it or a link to it?

My evidence was not anecdotal but that didn't make one bit of difference to you.

Because you posted zero evidence about the subject of this thread, which was whether or not there is a scientific consensus about evolution being or not being a fact. I could post all kinds of evidence about antiboitic resistance, or varves, or the price of tea in china, and I hope you would similarly ignore it, because it would be a red herring.

Well, Steve Austin is not among them, that's for certain. There were a lot of other 'Steve's' that don't believe that nonsense.
Great! Post 'em! Let's look at the data.

We want the truth
Sure we do - that's why we discuss things. However, evolution is a huge topic, so we are discussing one aspect at a time (that's much of the reason why many threads exist, instead of just one thread on Christian forums - to allow for on topic discussion).

Look, I'm not into a shouting match, or hurling insults, or so much other spiteful stuff that happens all over. If that's what you are into, that's fine - there are plenty of places for that on the web (or sadly, even in the home). Busterdog and I agreed to start a thread simply on the topic of whether or not there was a scientific consensus on evolution, and that's this thread.

Have a great day everyone-

Papias
 
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Calypsis4

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You contest the theory of evolution with not a shred of physical evidence. Arguments from incredulity = fail.

That was an utterly dishonest statement. I have done little else on the threads where I have posted in the Origins section of this website but post evidence in favor of creation and against evolution.

Actually it was an outright lie. If you keep making statements like that I am intend to ignore you altogether.

You may disagree with me all you wish as a moral free agent, but you are not going to tell lies about what I have or have not said and expect any degree of respect from this retired science teacher. Is that clear?
 
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Calypsis4

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Um, no. The subject of this thread is whether or not there is a scientific consensus in support of evolution.

O.k. 'in support of evolution' which I contend is NOT true and doesn't even exist. I have posted many solid reasons as to why.

That's the topic of this thread. Whether or not evolution is a fact is not the topic - there are plenty of threads on that, as you know. Could you please read the opening post and tell me where it states that this thread is about the evidence for evolution, or the Bible?

Anything that doesn't directly relate to the presence or absence of a scientific consensis is off topic,

So what? Your 'scientists' affirm that evolution is true and I and my comrades say it is false.

and likely a red herring. Look, we are discussing evidenc in other threads - if we can't stay on topic, we can't have a meaningful discussion, right?

Sure. Then don't answer any more of my posts on this thread if you deem me off topic. Gee, that was so hard to figure out!

I bring that up again also because you posted.

Right, the majority doesn't determine truth - nonetheless, this thread is to discuss where the majority of scientists fall, because we time and again hear creationists claiming that scientists are divided in their support for evolution, or that evolution is a "Theory in Crisis".

You said it: Namely Classic Dariwinism vs punctuated equilibrium. That was a riot to watch.:thumbsup:


So posters on this thread should indeed care if there is a scientific consensus or not, because this thread is not about rocks or any such, but only to discuss whether or not there is a scientific consensus in support of evolution, per the OP, which never states that evolution is a fact.

On this thread, we do care what the majority of scientists think - if only because that is the explicity stated topic of this thread.

I doesn't matter to me what they think. I care what Almighty God says in His Word. Genesis 1:1-31, Exodus 20:11, Mark 10:6, I Corinthians 15:22, I Timothy 2.15, etc.

Great! Can you paste it to post it or a link to it?

I'll get to it eventually, but probably not on this thread. You want me to do this but talking out of the other side of your mouth by encouraging me to post the 'off topic' stuff. Hmm.

Because you posted zero evidence

You just told an untruth. I have persistently posted evidence for creationism and against evolution. You are living in denial.

...about the subject of this thread, which was whether or not there is a scientific consensus about evolution being or not being a fact. I could post all kinds of evidence about antiboitic resistance, or varves, or the price of tea in china, and I hope you would similarly ignore it, because it would be a red herring.

Great! Post 'em! Let's look at the data.

You'll see it in time. Be patient.
Sure we do - that's why we discuss things. However, evolution is a huge topic, so we are discussing one aspect at a time (that's much of the reason why many threads exist, instead of just one thread on Christian forums - to allow for on topic discussion).

Look, I'm not into a shouting match, or hurling insults, or so much other spiteful stuff that happens all over.

Who's shouting? I am enjoying myself. The real truth is that you and your comrades do not like having your unbelief in God's Word exposed for what it is: error.

If that's what you are into, that's fine - there are plenty of places for that on the web (or sadly, even in the home). Busterdog and I agreed to start a thread simply on the topic of whether or not there was a scientific consensus on evolution, and that's this thread.

Really? Well, if we've covered that base then why are you still here?

Have a great day everyone-

Papias

Best wishes.
 
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laconicstudent

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That was an utterly dishonest statement. I have done little else on the threads where I have posted in the Origins section of this website but post evidence in favor of creation and against evolution.

Peer reviewed primary literature? No, I'm pretty sure we have yet to see any.

Actually it was an outright lie. If you keep making statements like that I am intend to ignore you altogether.

You've been citing peer-reviewed research? Why don't you point some out so I can retract my statement? :confused:

You may disagree with me all you wish as a moral free agent, but you are not going to tell lies about what I have or have not said and expect any degree of respect from this retired science teacher. Is that clear?

Yes, Your Majesty. I will not speak the truth from my perspective if it happens to contradict your opinions. ^_^


So. Where are those peer-reviewed research citations you've been claiming to have been posting now? ^_^


Oh, and do you expect anyone to take your claim to be a "retired science teacher" seriously without any verification? Its a pathetic appeal to authority in any case.
 
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Papias

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Calypsis4 wrote:

O.k. 'in support of evolution' which I contend is NOT true and doesn't even exist. I have posted many solid reasons as to why.

I could well have asked "is there a scientific consensus that phlogiston is true?". Taking only the last part of a sentence can change the meaning. Why did you take the time to post so much stuff, since it doen't relate to the topic of this thread?



Your 'scientists' affirm that evolution is true and I and my comrades say it is false.

OK, so you are stating that there is a scientific consensus that evolution is true? That of course doesn't admit the evolution is true, but it is the topic of this thread.
You said it: Namely Classic Dariwinism vs punctuated equilibrium. That was a riot to watch.:thumbsup:
Which are both approaches to evolution where one form of evolution is more common than the other, both of which are consistent with a scientific consensus that evolution is true.

{Papias wrote:}
On this thread, we do care what the majority of scientists think - if only because that is the explicity stated topic of this thread.

I doesn't matter to me what they think. I care what Almighty God says in His Word. Genesis 1:1-31, Exodus 20:11, Mark 10:6, I Corinthians 15:22, I Timothy 2.15, etc.
Then why do you post on this thread, which is about what they think, regardless of whether it is right or wrong? Do you find forums about needlepoint and post there about how the war in Iraq is wrong, or find forums on gardening and rant about that evil socialist health care plan? Do you read the OP of a thread before posting?


Great! Can you paste it to post it or a link to it?

I'll get to it eventually, but probably not on this thread. You want me to do this but talking out of the other side of your mouth by encouraging me to post the 'off topic' stuff. Hmm.


How is that talking out of both sides of my mouth? It would be the only on-topic evidence you have posted yet.

Because you posted zero evidence
You just told an untruth. I have persistently posted evidence for creationism and against evolution. You are living in denial.

...about the subject of this thread, which was whether or not there is a scientific consensus about evolution being or not being a fact. I could post all kinds of evidence about antiboitic resistance, or varves, or the price of tea in china, and I hope you would similarly ignore it, because it would be a red herring.

An untruth? No, you appear to have tried to make it look like an untruth by chopping up my sentence, and then objecting to only one fragment of the sentence, which of course changes the meaning of the sentence. That appears to be quote-mining, a common and deceptive practice. Are you familiar with quote mining, and do you agree that none of us should be doing it?

Great! Post 'em! Let's look at the data.
You'll see it in time. Be patient.
OK. :yum:
The real truth is that you and your comrades do not like having your unbelief in God's Word exposed for what it is: error.
How does my or your unbelief or belief in whoever's God have anything to do with what scientists think about evolution? If you want to start a thread about beliefs, or about the differences between your Baptist God and my Catholic God, go ahead.


Well, if we've covered that base then why are you still here?

So we've reached a conclusion on the topic of this thread, whether or not there is a scientific consensus on evolution? What conclusion did we reach?

Have a great day everyone-

Papias
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Is there a scientific consensus that evolution is a fact?
Clearly not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEDYr_fgcP8

"There is no unintelligent processes known to science that can generate codes and machines." -- Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, February 5th 2009

"Why do Darwinists claim that intelligent design is untestable, and simultaneously claim that it is wrong?" -- Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, February 5th 2009

"First of all, I love science. I think that the way that Darwinism corrupts the evidence, distorts the evidence, is bad for science." -- Jonathan C. Wells, molecular biologist, 2008

"Well, it's a funny thing that questions that aren't properly answered don't go away." -- Paul A. Nelson, philosopher, 2008

"[Darwinism is] a kind of amusing 19th century collection of anecdotes that is utterly unlike anything we see in the serious sciences. ... Yeah, biologists do agree that this is the correct theory for the origin and diversification of life, but here are some points you should consider as well: 1) the theory doesn't have any substance, 2) it's preposterous, 3) it's not supported by the evidence and 4) the fact that the biologists are uniformly in agreement about this issue could as well be explained by some solid Marxist interpretation of their economic interests." -- David Berlinski, author, 2008

"He [Richard Dawkins] has the arrogance to say that anyone who does not share his views is infected with a virus. No wonder he cannot coexist peacefully with them." -- Freeman J. Dyson, physicist, September 2007

"I think Richard Dawkins is doing a lot of damage. I disagree very strongly with the way he's going about it. I don't deny his right to be an atheist, but I think he does a great deal of harm when he publicly says that in order to be a scientist, you have to be an atheist. That simply turns young people away from science. He's convinced a lot of young people not to be scientists because they don't want to be atheists. I'm strongly against him on that question. It's simply not true what he's saying, and it's not only not true it's harmful. The fact is that many of my friends are much more religious than I am and are first-rate scientists. There's absolutely nothing that stops you from being both." -- Freeman J. Dyson, physicist, September 2007

"Science will not collapse if some practitioners are convinced that occasionally there has been creative input in the long chain of being." -- Owen Gingrich, astronomer/historian, February 2005

"Science, we are told is tentative. And given the history of science, there is every reason to be tentative. No scientific theory withstands revision for long, and many are eventually superseded by theories that flatly contradict their predecessors. Scientific revolutions are common, painful, and real. New theories regularly overturn old ones, and no scientific theory is ever the final word. But if science is tentative, scientists are not. As philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn rightly noted, it takes a revolution to change scientific theories precisely because scientists do not hold their theories tentatively. Thus, in his Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Kuhn quotes with approval Max Planck, who wrote: 'A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing it's opponents and making them see the light, but rather because it's opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'" -- William A. Dembski, philosopher, March 16th 2000

"Was it thought out by somebody or did it just happen by chance? Which is really just the same thing as saying did the universe happen by chance isn't it? And I have to say, 'Well now look, it doesn't look to me at all like chance.'" -- Fred Hoyle, cosmologist, 2000

"A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe." -- Fred Hoyle, cosmologist, 1983

"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random is so utterly minuscule as to make the random concept absurd, it becomes sensible to think that the favourable properties of physics on which life depends are in every respect deliberate." -- Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramsinghe, cosmologists, 1981

"Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one part in 10^40,000 must be judged superior to random shuffling [of evolution]. The theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40,000 of being the correct explanation of the many curious facts discussed in preceding chapters. Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific." -- Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramsinghe, cosmologists, 1981

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)^2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court." -- Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramsinghe, cosmologists, 1981

"Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is insensibly different from zero." --Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramsinghe, cosmologists, 1981

"Is it pure chance that night-blossoming grow white the better to attract night moths and night-flying butterflies, emitting stronger fragrance at dusk, or that the carrion lily develops the smell of rotting meat in areas where only flies abound, whereas flowers which rely on the wind to cross-pollinate the species do not waste energy on making themselves beautiful, fragrant or appealing to insects, but remain relatively unattractive?" -- Peter Tompkins and Christoper Bird, botanists, 1973

"Is it chance that plants grow into special shapes to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of insects that will pollinate them, luring these insects with special color and fragrance, rewarding them with their favorite nectar, devising extraordinary canals and floral machinery with which to ensnare a bee so as to release it through a trap door only when the pollination process is completed?" -- Peter Tompkins and Christoper Bird, botanists, 1973

"And the problem in geology is not only [a] problem of annihilation of species but also a problem of origin of species. In fact the very question of evolution: How could so many species that populate the Earth, and many more have populated without leaving a single descendant, how could so many species evolve just by the mere process of competition? From the original simple form, practically unicellular form, just by competition, can you understand how a crocodile and a bird and a worm and a man and an insect with many legs, all could come to be?" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

"And the very question of fossilization. A problem that was never adequately answered. With Darwin, it is animals are wading in shallow water, dieing when wading, being covered by sand before predatory fish would devour their cadavers. In the same time, in the same breath, Darwin claims that this process is going on only when the Earth subsides and the process is very slow counted in thousands and tens of thousands of years so where is the chance for cadavers to survive in this situation? And have you seen a cat wading in shallow water?" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, May 1966

"Science without religion is lame...." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1941

"Apparently the Creator does not favor a world of too great simplicity." -- Carl D. Anderson, physicist, 1936

"Yet these people doubt whether the universe, from whence all things arise and are made, is not the effect of chance, or some necessity, rather than the work of reason and a divine mind. According to them, Archimedes shows more knowledge in representing the motions of the celestial globe than nature does in causing them, though the copy is so infinitely beneath the original." -- Marcus T. Cicero, philosopher, The Nature of the Gods, 1st century B.C.

"...it is sufficient to assume only one movent, the first of unmoved things, which being eternal will be the principle of motion to everything else." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book VIII, 350 B.C.
 
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Mallon

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Clearly not.
There certainly is, particularly if we reference biologists who deal with the evidence every day (rather than philosophers and engineers).
Check out Project Steve.
Just because there is still a handful of holdouts doesn't mean the vast majority of scientists don't accept evolution.
 
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Papias

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Susa -

First, you are aware that not all of those quotes dispute evolution, right? For intstance, the ones by Nelson and Dyson. Similarly, it is misleading to put Einstein on that list, because he fully supported evolution, and his quote in no way contradicts evolution.

More importantly, you have mentioned a few scientists there (like 10 or so). Compared to the 1,000+ on Project steve, that's around 1% (so are you arguing that 99% of scientists support evolution?

Lastly, many of your quotes are not by scientists and are therefore irrelevant to this conversation, or worse, at least one is by the well known crank (and UFO/alien proponent), Velikovsky.


You could clean up the list to only include real scientists, with real rejection of evolution, but that's really not that important since the number is so small.

Thanks, Papias
 
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Burlesque

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To simply and briefly answer the thread starter's question: yes, there is scientific consensus that evolution is a fact, for the simple reason that it has been proven to be so.

However, I'm not here to start a ruckus, but to ask directions: where is the "discussion and debate" section of the Theology forum? It was suggested I go there, but, as you can see, I seem to have lost my way.

Burlesque.
 
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andreha

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Hi Burlesque

To the best of my knowledge, there is no are on CF that allows full on debate between Christians and Non Christians. But there is the "Exploring Christianity" forum here. There, you can ask questions about Christianity, and discuss freely, but debate is not allowed. See, in theology, only Christians are allowed to debate. Feel free to post on my profile if you want to discuss freely. :)

To simply and briefly answer the thread starter's question: yes, there is scientific consensus that evolution is a fact, for the simple reason that it has been proven to be so.

However, I'm not here to start a ruckus, but to ask directions: where is the "discussion and debate" section of the Theology forum? It was suggested I go there, but, as you can see, I seem to have lost my way.

Burlesque.
 
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