Is there a Divine Enemy?

[BobRyan]

"The undermining working [of Satan] was so subtle that it could not be made to appear before the heavenly host as the thing that it really was .... This condition of things had existed a long period of time before Satan was unmasked.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 4:1143. {TA 40.1}

"God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, not even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.—The Great Controversy, 495, 496. {TA 40.2}

"The spirit of discontent and disaffection had never before been known in heaven. It was a new element, strange, mysterious, unaccountable. Lucifer himself had not at first been acquainted with the real nature of his feelings; for a time he had feared to express the workings and imaginings of his mind; yet he did not dismiss them. He did not see whither he was drifting. But such efforts as infinite love and wisdom only could devise, were made to convince him of his error. His disaffection was proved to be without cause, and he was made to see what would be the result of persisting in revolt. Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong. He saw that the divine statutes are just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. {TA 40.3}

"Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at that time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had left his position as covering cherub,...

 

[awitch]

=============== interesting article
"Sin began with Satan when he was an exalted angel in heaven. He had great honor there among the angels. The first sign of his dissatisfaction was the manifestation of his desire to be equal with God, to be worshiped as God.

Sounds like god made a quite a large mistake in picking his second, then.

 

[BobRyan]

All heaven had rejoiced to reflect the Creator’s glory and to show forth His praise. And while God was thus honored, all had been peace and gladness. But a note of discord now marred the celestial harmonies. The service and exaltation of self, contrary to the Creator’s plan, awakened forebodings of evil in minds to whom God’s glory was supreme. The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker, and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed jealousy of Christ to prevail, and he became the more determined.... {DD 2.2}

 

[BobRyan]

Sounds like god made a quite a large mistake in picking his second, then.

That text did not say "God made machines and the first machine was flawed".

God made intelligent life and provided free will.

Your post would be like saying "those parents had the first baby in error, since that baby decided to shop lift at the age of 19". In a free will system parents do not make machines - they give birth to intelligent humans having freedom of thought.

 

[BobRyan]

"There was a time when Satan was in harmony with God, and it was his joy to execute the divine commands. His heart was filled with love and joy in serving his Creator, until he began to think that his wisdom was not derived from God, but was inherent in himself, and that he was as worthy as was God to receive honor and power."—The Signs of the Times, September 18, 1893.

"Though God had created Lucifer noble and beautiful, and had exalted him to high honor among the angelic host, yet He had not placed him beyond the possibility of evil. It was in Satan's power, did he choose to do so, to pervert these gifts. He might have remained in favor with God, beloved and honored by all the angelic throng, presiding in his exalted position with generous, unselfish care, exercising his noble powers to bless others and to glorify his Maker. But, little by little, he began to seek his own honor, and to employ his powers to attract attention and win praise to himself. He also gradually led the angels over whom he ruled to do him service, instead of devoting all their powers to the service of their Creator.—The Spirit of Prophecy 4:317.

"Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation.... Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 35.

 

[awitch]

That text did not say "God made machines and the first machine was flawed".

God made intelligent life and provided free will.

Your post would be like saying "those parents had the first baby in error, since that baby decided to shop lift at the age of 19". In a free will system parents do not make machines - they give birth to intelligent humans having freedom of thought.

That is not at all a valid metaphor.
God picked a second who then recruited so they could overthrow Him. Therefore, God made a poor choice when picking his second. Now, if God is omni-everything, then the coup would have been dictated by God. The entire story is basically nonsensical.

 

[timothyu]

Where did the coup concept come from? Think of it more as copyright infringement. Humans do it all the time including against God. The latest attempt to combine humanity and technology, a new being made in our image, is just another example of copying what God originally did. Soon we will be kicking this new being out of our Garden when the techno side becomes self aware, just as God had to do when His being within flesh was overshadowed by the flesh becoming self aware..

 

[BobRyan]

That is not at all a valid metaphor.
God picked a second who then recruited so they could overthrow Him. Therefore, God made a poor choice when picking his second.

God made the angels and as the post shows - each of them were made sinless and perfect. Not defective.

That is the difference between making a machine, vs making a person who is independent thought and free will. The machine would need to be defective to start with. But in the case of Lucifer , he was made perfect, sinless, holy. not a single defect.

You write as if a random population of angels existed and God "picked a bad one" . But that is not what the Bible teaches, it is not what Christianity teaches.

God created Adam and Eve as functioning adults on day one according to the Bible. And as Ezekiel 28 (and the links I provided) point out God created Lucifer sinless and perfect, fully functioning in his role as "covering cherub". Lucifer did not "rise to that level" nor was he randomly selected for it. Rather he was created in that role.

 

[Zoness]

So like the rioters, no one wants to take responsibility for their own condition or actions?

You can't if god is all powerful anyways. If we throw out the omni-god then we can change the equation quite a bit.

 

[timothyu]

You can't if god is all powerful anyways. If we throw out the omni-god then we can change the equation quite a bit.

Two different universes

 

[Arthra]

Is Satan/Mephistopheles/the devil real?

In the Baha'i Faith there is no "devil" or "Satan":

"The Bahá'í Faith denies the existence of Satan, a devil, or an "evil force." Evil does not have independent existence, but is rather the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat."

www.religionfacts.com/bahai/evil

"Baha’is do not see Satan as an independent being, but as a symbol. The terms Satan or devil do appear in the Baha’i writings, used as metaphors for the base nature of man. We human beings have free will, and can turn towards God to develop spiritual qualities, or turn away from God and become immersed in our self-centered desires."

Breaking Bad and the Baha'i Teachings on Ego

develop.bahaiteachings.org/what-breaking-bad-teach-human-ego/

 

[LightBearer]

Is Satan/Mephistopheles/the devil real? Or is this just flaws in our own humanity that lead us to do bad things? This is open to any religions, and what I have below is just my own ramblings about this topic, not apologetics. I'm simply laying out my beliefs & asking you to do the same. The images are supplemental.

Personally, I can't see there not being a divine enemy of some kind. If there is a good God, and people choose bad anyway, there must be a force that leads people away from the good God. Free will chooses what looks good, so there has to be something enticing in the opposite direction. Our own flawed nature can lead us to choose the wrong, but I don't believe it would be sufficiently anti-goodness to account for all the atrocities through all of human history.

Even looking in nature, there is definite beauty, and many religions are built off of seeing something divine in natural creation. Yet the presence of an Enemy is unmistakable, as the beauty of the trees & the water & the butterflies can often be attacked by various parasites.

There is definite conflict in nature, in the world, and in ourselves. There is conflict in every story. How can there be conflict without an enemy to fight? Why do so many sports, movies, and books involve combat? It resonates with all of us at some level.

Here is the bible's identification of the Devil: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g200702/who-is-satan-is-he-real/

 

[BobRyan]

You can't if god is all powerful anyways. If we throw out the omni-god then we can change the equation quite a bit.

All powerful and all knowing - God can choose whatever system He wants. He sovereignly chose "free will".

 

[timothyu]

All powerful and all knowing - God can choose whatever system He wants. He sovereignly chose "free will".

How could we be artistic without it? Adam could have not named the animals. Everything would be called grok.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is [Satan] real?

Yes.

 

[dlamberth]

The only Divine enemy is ourselves.

 

[AV1611VET]

The only Divine enemy is ourselves.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[dlamberth]

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ya...that devil is ourselves. We cause our own darkness.

 

[awitch]

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The closest lion to me is in a zoo so they don't get to walketh about much.
North America doesn't have any wild lions, but if it did, do you really have to be vigilant for one that's roaring so much? You can hear a lion roar up to 5 miles away and they only hunt every few days. They're classified as endangered or vulnerable.

This devil you speak of doesn't sound very impressive.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ya...that devil is ourselves. We cause our own darkness.

We're soon due to be locked up for a thousand years then, aren't we!?