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Is there a Divine Enemy?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Unofficial Reverand Alex, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. Unofficial Reverand Alex

    Unofficial Reverand Alex Look up Jason Evert on YouTube; he changed my life Angels Team Supporter

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    Is Satan/Mephistopheles/the devil real? Or is this just flaws in our own humanity that lead us to do bad things? This is open to any religions, and what I have below is just my own ramblings about this topic, not apologetics. I'm simply laying out my beliefs & asking you to do the same. The images are supplemental.

    Personally, I can't see there not being a divine enemy of some kind. If there is a good God, and people choose bad anyway, there must be a force that leads people away from the good God. Free will chooses what looks good, so there has to be something enticing in the opposite direction. Our own flawed nature can lead us to choose the wrong, but I don't believe it would be sufficiently anti-goodness to account for all the atrocities through all of human history.

    Even looking in nature, there is definite beauty, and many religions are built off of seeing something divine in natural creation. Yet the presence of an Enemy is unmistakable, as the beauty of the trees & the water & the butterflies can often be attacked by various parasites.

    There is definite conflict in nature, in the world, and in ourselves. There is conflict in every story. How can there be conflict without an enemy to fight? Why do so many sports, movies, and books involve combat? It resonates with all of us at some level.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  2. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I never understood why everyone ( almost) believes in God, but so many want to deny the devil's existence. It's obvious that we live in a broken world and are opposed by forces that try to bring us down.
     
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  3. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Everything is food for something else. It is a basis of the comprehensible universe. This universe of opposites is not part of what we call Heaven but was once connected with a neutral zone in which we began. Having learned of the opposites, the man of the neutral zone was cast out into the universe out of the neutral zone/Garden to suffer the consequences of knowing of good and evil without the ability to use it properly.

    Self awareness ruined our original purpose but was of course always a possibility as a hybrid . Thousands of years, and even with a Messiah, and man still pursues the opposite of what God teaches, pursuing the interests of self rather than of others. The fact Christians get involved in the us vs them game of politics shows they are following still the wrong governance, man rather than Kingdom. Man is the one faction of this universe that is out of sync with all else simply because of our self awareness. It is the one faction that constantly redefines good and evil to suit our purposes. The rest of creation sticks to the original formula. God tells us to look to the needs of others. We insist on serving self.

    Even Gentile Christianity diverted attention away from ourselves and onto an outside evil entity to distract followers from seeing the church leaders as being just as self serving as ourselves. In that way they could blame an outside evil for their own hypocrisies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  4. awitch

    awitch Black Lives Matter

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    Nope.

    There is competition over limited resources, sure.

    Because no one likes to think that an all powerful, all knowing god would allow terrible things to happen, never mind dictate them. They need someone to blame.

    What happens when the real world conflicts with what scripture says? Blame it on the devil. "That's how those fossils got there so I don't have to think about evolution".
     
  5. Zoness

    Zoness 667, neighbor of the beast Supporter

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    The Bible is clear that even our best works are but filthy rags to god so I am not sure why it would be surprising that humans do terrible things even at their worst.

    IMO this is the one of the biggest criticisms to level against Christianity. It espouses free will (with some notable exceptions) yet strips agency whenever its convenient to answer big questions like the problem of evil.

    Once you add the devil in, free will looks utterly nonsensical. If the devil is causing badness in the world, he's allowed to by god. Therefore his actions are foreordained by god and no amount of work you do could have prevented it so how are you culpable for these wrong doings? In any logical ethical philosophy you wouldn't be, but we don't accept the "devil made me do it" in court so we can throw that out.

    OR we can throw devil out entirely and say that humans cause their own sin and suffering in the world. Okay fair enough, but then why create a world where this can happen in the first place? Why let Adam eat that Apple? The answer is usually "free will" but clearly god would have known they were going to do it, god knows everything and does everything (see Isaiah 45:7). So he punishes them [and the rest of humanity] forever because of something he allowed them to do, that he knew they were going to do. Omnipotence is incompatible with free will, in that way I think Calvinists have it the most right.

    That said, the entire thing looks a little silly when you examine it stripped away from cultural baggage and upbringing. The problem of sin could have been avoided entirely but god let it happen then became angry when it happened.
     
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  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    well... movies and cartoons not withstanding :) - the devil is real - - and in Matthew 4 Christ is in direct conflict with the real devil... so also in Revelation 12 -- the war in heaven is with the real devil who really deceives 1/3 of the real angels in real heaven.

    Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 also give some interesting information about the devil who was a "covering cherub" at one time.

    Still -- I would not call him "divine".
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  7. awitch

    awitch Black Lives Matter

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    Why is there a war in heaven?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    You might find the first two chapters of this online book - interesting.

    The Story of Redemption

    The chapters are very short and packed with lots of detail - that an unofficial Reverand might find helpful.. :)
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    check out the two short short chapters in this post above..
    A moment ago #8
     
  10. awitch

    awitch Black Lives Matter

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    Very interesting. I hope you'll have some time to answer some follow ups:
    1. Is this canon or fan fiction?
    2. It says half of the angels were sympathetic to Satan. I would like to know how many that was? Dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions?
     
  11. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Satan is real, but he is not divine.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The canon is the 66 books of the Bible.

    Daniel 7 says the ones left in heaven after 1/3 were cast out -- are numbered in the millions. So that rules out "dozens, hundreds, thousands". Thousands x thousands would be at the very least 4 million.

    9 “I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
    His vesture was like white snow
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire.
    10 “A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.
     
  13. awitch

    awitch Black Lives Matter

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    From the chapters, Satan is basically God's lieutenant. Would be it accurate to say that it was never a question about faith? Satan and the angels had full knowledge of God's omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience before rebelling?
     
  14. Unofficial Reverand Alex

    Unofficial Reverand Alex Look up Jason Evert on YouTube; he changed my life Angels Team Supporter

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    I don't have time to read this right now, but I will later tonight. 'Till then, I would like to repeat this question...
    I've heard some about the Fall of Lucifer, but I don't know where all the information comes from. Revelation gives sparse detail, but it helps a little.

    And thank you for sharing, I'm sure it'll be good to read!
     
  15. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Actually He was in contact with the Tempter which according to the Hebrew people was created by God to do precisely as it's name applies, test the resolve of repentant man.
     
  16. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Acknowledging that God exists does not mean that you believe in God.

    Most people who say “I believe in God” do not believe in him - what they mean is “I think a god exists”

    demons know God exists, but so what? They don’t believe in him.

    The majority of humans don’t believe in God, because if they did believe in him, they would obey him.
     
  17. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Nah. Many humans just go around saying they speak for Him, many justifying their actions by say it is His will. Posers.
     
  18. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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  19. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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    Hopp over #18 it is a dudd one.

    What I was going to say was,

    How wonderful the Satan does not have the last word.

    Zechariah 3:1-2
     
  20. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    No!
    The only reality is God. Period!
    God is the Life Force of all that exist.
     
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