Is there a Divine Enemy?

[BobRyan]

Actually He was in contact with the Tempter which according to the Hebrew people was created by God to do precisely as it's name applies, test the resolve of repentant man.

Here is what God says about it - (instead of saying "I created an evil devil to do horrible things" etc)

‘Thus says the Lord God,


“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[BobRyan]

I don't have time to read this right now, but I will later tonight. 'Till then, I would like to repeat this question...

awitch said: ↑
1. Is this canon or fan fiction?

I've heard some about the Fall of Lucifer, but I don't know where all the information comes from. Revelation gives sparse detail, but it helps a little.

And thank you for sharing, I'm sure it'll be good to read!

The Bible is canon - but the Bible allows for prophets that are not Bible authors .. so then in the Bible Nathan is a prophet, all the Christians in the church of Corinth 1 Cor 14 were prophets, Agabus in the book of Acts was a prophet, Anna in the Temple in the Gospels was a prophet -- but none of them write a "book of the Bible" -- but they are inspired by God -- He gives them direct divine revelation (supernatural visions etc) even though they are not writing a book of the Bible. That is the source for the link.

 

[BobRyan]

From the chapters, Satan is basically God's lieutenant. Would be it accurate to say that it was never a question about faith? Satan and the angels had full knowledge of God's omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience before rebelling?

True -- they had full knowledge of God - but they were finite and God is infinite so then no matter how well informed they might have been before rebelling - there was always an infinite amount to learn. IN that reference it is noted that God made a decision that they did not fully understand. 2/3's of the angels decided to trust God because God had already shown himself trustworthy. But Lucifer convinced 1/3 of the angels to doubt God and to join him in rebellion as that link points out.

 

[BobRyan]

Very interesting. I hope you'll have some time to answer some follow ups:
1. Is this canon or fan fiction?

The Bible allows for not only Bible-writing prophets but also for prophets like Agabus, Nathan, Anna in the Temple in the gospels etc - the whole church of Corinth in 1Corinthians 14 .. to have the gift of prophecy.

 

[awitch]

True -- they had full knowledge of God - but they were finite and God is infinite so then no matter how well informed they might have been before rebelling - there was always an infinite amount to learn. IN that reference it is noted that God made a decision that they did not fully understand. 2/3's of the angels decided to trust God because God had already shown himself trustworthy. But Lucifer convinced 1/3 of the angels to doubt God and to join him in rebellion as that link points out.

I suppose if we're still talking in the millions, 1/2 or 1/3 is no longer relevant.
What I'm getting at is that jealousy is not a sufficient reason for any of the angels to rebel if they possessed full knowledge of God (even to the point of being his right-hand man which is basically the highest honor in the universe for anything that wasn't God), knowing they had absolutely zero chance of victory, and knowing they would be cast out of heaven and punished with eternal torment after they lose. The only reason they would have rebelled was a symbolic protest against God.

It also leaves the potential for the troubling ability to willingly sin in heaven.

 

[Zoness]

I thought angels were utterly beholden to god and had no free will? How would they have rebelled? Unless I missed that.

 

[timothyu]

I thought angels were utterly beholden to god and had no free will? How would they have rebelled? Unless I missed that.

They took after their mother's side?

 

[zippy2006]

I thought angels were utterly beholden to god and had no free will?

You thought wrong. Christianity has never taught that.

 

[Robban]

You thought wrong. Christianity has never taught that.

The Rambam teaches that angels are beings that in their essence completely lack free will.

The Torah's perspective of an angel.

The Torah understands an angel as simply a messenger.

Anything that is doing the will of it's Creator is acting as an angel.

Even forces such as gravity and the tides, which are natural forces that God creates can be seen as amgels.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought angels were utterly beholden to god and had no free will? How would they have rebelled? Unless I missed that.

They have free will - that rebellion listed in Revelation 12 and Ezekiel 28 proves it beyond all doubt.

 

[BobRyan]

The Rambam teaches that angels are beings that in their essence completely lack free will.

Well the Bible shows them as having free will. In fact God sovereignly mandates free will.

 

[BobRyan]

I suppose if we're still talking in the millions, 1/2 or 1/3 is no longer relevant.

It is relevant in that it shows a great many are here - as the group of the fallen.

I
What I'm getting at is that jealousy is not a sufficient reason for any of the angels to rebel if they possessed full knowledge of God

God is infinite. Angels are finite - no matter how much knowledge they have - there is an infinite amount still left to learn about God.

Trust/faith/ etc is exercised in the area where you do not see around that corner. Lucifer did not see where God was going with His decision -- in fact Lucifer did not see where his own decision would lead. Clearly he never would "want" to be cast out of heaven.

knowing they had absolutely zero chance of victory, and knowing they would be cast out of heaven and punished

none of which they knew for certain -

The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 1: Why was Sin Permitted?

 

[Zoness]

So the Jewish position is they do not have free will but the Christian position is that they do. Hmmm.

 

[timothyu]

So the Jewish position is they do not have free will but the Christian position is that they do. Hmmm.

How can man shirk responsibility for our own actions and blame an angel if the angel is the will of God?

 

[awitch]

It is relevant in that it shows a great many are here - as the group of the fallen.

Agreed. Millions of angels who were in heaven with direct knowledge of god rebelled against him despite his omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience.

God is infinite. Angels are finite - no matter how much knowledge they have - there is an infinite amount still left to learn about God.

The only thing they needed to know was god's omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience; which they did.

Trust/faith/ etc is exercised in the area where you do not see around that corner. Lucifer did not see where God was going with His decision -- in fact Lucifer did not see where his own decision would lead.

With the direct knowledge of god that he had, there is no way he could NOT have known.

Clearly he never would "want" to be cast out of heaven.

And yet he recruited millions of angels and they rebelled anyway.

 

[timothyu]

And yet he recruited millions of angels and they rebelled anyway.

And as a result here we are.

 

[Zoness]

How can man shirk responsibility for our own actions and blame an angel if the angel is the will of God?

I've read this a couple of times and am not 100% sure what you're asking.

If god is omnipotent then he causes all things and there's no room for man to do otherwise, ergo eliminating free will [as in unconstrained action] so all of man's actions are god-guided de facto. At least that's the take that seems most intuitive to me, and the one thing that brings me in alignment with Calvinists.

 

[Robban]

Well the Bible shows them as having free will. In fact God sovereignly mandates free will.

The human being has the unique gift of free will.

Consider,

"And behold the ladder was standing on the ground,
and it's top was reaching up to the heavens,
angels of God were travelling up and down on it."

Genesis 28:12

Why not first down then up if they are from above?

The Rambam teaches,

They can only fulfull their assigned tasks,

which is why they are going up first to share their report and then coming down to complete their assignment.

They cannot do anything of own accord.

When asked where it came from, the Satan replied , from a wandering around on the earth,

 

[timothyu]

At least that's the take that seems most intuitive to me

So like the rioters, no one wants to take responsibility for their own condition or actions?

 

[BobRyan]

With the direct knowledge of god that he had, there is no way he could NOT have known.

And yet he recruited millions of angels and they rebelled anyway.

=============== interesting article
"Sin began with Satan when he was an exalted angel in heaven. He had great honor there among the angels. The first sign of his dissatisfaction was the manifestation of his desire to be equal with God, to be worshiped as God. He tried to falsify the word of God, and pervert his plan of government before the angels. He claimed that God was not just in laying rules and laws upon the inhabitants of heaven. He represented that God was not self-denying, and that Christ (God the Son) was not self-denying; why, then, should the angels be required to be self-denying? {RH March 9, 1886, par. 3}

"Satan was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong....

"God in his wisdom did not immediately thrust Satan out of heaven. This act would not have changed his principles, and would only have strengthened his rebellion, for it would have created sympathy for him as one unjustly dealt with; and he would have carried a much larger number with him. He must be displaced, and have time to more fully develop his principles. {RH March 9, 1886, par. 5}