Is the war in Iraq right?

[dudeoffaith1]

I think it is. Go President Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Alencon]

NO!

Next question.

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

Please justify your standing.

I have recently seen a trend with the Religions Right being brainwashed by the Republican Party. This was evident in my previous congregation, where the pastor preached the End-Times and its linkage to Iraq and called for us to support Israel and the Republican Party. Say, are a lot of Christians today worshipping God or a political ideology?

Now don't flame me for what I'm about to say. Politics is a very complicated matter. President Bush is a godly man (I don't know if I can say the same for Cheney or Rice), and there's no doubt about it. But he is also human and is in the ugly world of politics. So that means he must play favors. (Well, just keep in mind that everything he says on TV isn't completely true. There are ulterior motives behind every political mmove.)

One theory on the war in Iraq is the extremely grey and veiled economic and oil theory. Hey, I must confess - - if I were in Bush's shoes, I'd drill some black gold for my daddy and Dick's friends. And this is where the theory gets its meat - Cheney runs a major supplier firm for the military and Bush's family has the oil industry. They answer to the banks. Now who controls the banks? The top-ranking Jewish Americans (it's not PC to say this).

One Sunday service my pastor invited a Messianic Jew to speak to the congregation. He quoted from Isaiah (a quote referencing where one day all nations will bow down and attribute their wealth to Israel) and asked us to support Israel in its quest to regain its lost territory and asked us to support the Republican Party in its Iraqi war effort. Then it occured to me (formed my own theory and later verified it with other people) - - - the military operations in Iraq has economic motives AS WELL AS Jewish nationalism (and there's nothing wrong with that).

I'm all for Israel, by all means, but it is VERY SAD when Christians fall into their passions for reasons other than God. God will one day judge Israel, and I'm all for His chosen people on that day.

Now don't lynch me for posting this. I've said some bold and daring stuff here tonight and I can't back it up as it's only opinion. I just want to give one warning to all Christians - we serve our LORD and not this world. This world will pass away, but we are made for another world.

Another thing, can we move this to the politics forum?

Pax Christi,

Vincent

 

[Alencon]

Then it occured to me (formed my own theory and later verified it with other people) - - - the military operations in Iraq has economic motives...

You just figured that out? It's called OIL. I don't think that was Dubyah's primary motive, but I think it helped tip the balance.

I thought the war was an idiotic idea from day one for a number of reasons not the least of which was the fear we'd destabilize the entire region.

Now I have over a thousand reasons for thinking it was a bad idea. I have the dubious pleasure of reading some of the after action reports from Iraq. Given the lack of manpower and the lack of necessary equipment among the troops there, the whole operation is a disgrace.

Lucky for us that the American Soldier is possibly the greatest weapon that ever existed or things would be even worse.

 

[Beastt]

I think it is. Go President Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with half of your post.

Go Bush!!!!!!!!! Please go. I'll help you pack.

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

I myself am apartisan. I believe when Christians place the Republican Party above God or on-par with God or say that the former is God's will, then they're committing idolatry.

 

[ahman]

except he won again, and is in for four(4) more years. damn. if he's so bad, how did he do that?

 

[Beastt]

except he won again, and is in for four(4) more years. damn. if he's so bad, how did he do that?

1. Almost zero competition

2. Party pride. (Voting for the party instead of the candidate)

3. Religious pride. (He talks about what God wants and implies his actions are what God would want.)

4. Perhaps a degree of ignorance among the voters

 

[neverforsaken]

Well, if we didnt go to war with Iraq then there would still be a tyrannical dictator in charge. Here is a sound clip of an argument between a peace protester and an actual Iraqi citizen in America just before we went to war.
http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

I trust this Iraqi who knows of saddams tyranny firsthand more than any politican and their double talk.

 

[Beastt]

Well, if we didnt go to war with Iraq then there would still be a tyrannical dictator in charge. Here is a sound clip of an argument between a peace protester and an actual Iraqi citizen in America just before we went to war.
http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

I trust this Iraqi who knows of saddams tyranny firsthand more than any politican and their double talk.

I'm less than positive that we can say there isn't a tyrannical dictator in charge. Should the U.S. go to war with every country with a government unlike our own?

 

[ahman]

1. Almost zero competition

2. Party pride. (Voting for the party instead of the candidate)

3. Religious pride. (He talks about what God wants and implies his actions are what God would want.)

4. Perhaps a degree of ignorance among the voters

1. Who's fault is that?

2. Is Bush, is party, is party, is Bush

3. So do I.

4. You're from america, so i guess you're right

 

[Beastt]

1. Who's fault is that?

We weren't talking about fault. We were talking about reasons.

2. Is Bush, is party, is party, is Bush

So you believe that one man is the whole of the republican party. I trust many will disagree.

3. So do I.

Then you promote religious wars and believe Bush is God's representative?

4. You're from america, and i think you're ignorant, so i guess you're right

Ignorance is in the demonstration of ignorance.

 

[ahman]

1. well if there was no competition it was because no one stood up, that's someone's fault.

2. he's the president, he has a cabinet, they talk. amazing stuff.

3. i never said that, i simply said i do things and claim it in the name of God, there's plenty in the bible to tell you what he does and doesn't like.

4. ignorance is in being ignorant, you don't have to show anyone.

 

[neverforsaken]

I'm less than positive that we can say there isn't a tyrannical dictator in charge. Should the U.S. go to war with every country with a government unlike our own?

did you even listen the link i provided? it explains everything in pure english from someone that has more right to ask for saddams head than us. If people tell us that it was none of our business, that is wrong. We as a free nation should never turn a blind eye to tyranny and oppression. Would you not help a man being mugged on the street because you feel that you would then have to help every other mugged man in the world? That its none of your business? Yes saddam was only one dictator in the world and there are many like him, but we cant attack them all at once and restore all their governments at once. one step at a time. I am in favor of liberation always. And if we need to have more troops to liberate Iran, or N. Korea then I will gladly sign up [military service] to give the people of those nations what is their God given right.

If the link i provided is broken, heres another one

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/archive/topic/95853-1.html

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

And if we need to have more troops to liberate Iran, or N. Korea then I will gladly sign up [military service] to give the people of those nations what is their God given right.

Is a group of MEN to determine what another group's God-given rights are? History is on our side, so let's review several key occurances:

Let's look at the Civil War first. Do you know WHY it was fought? In our schools and our textbooks, we are constantly taught that the Union fought the South to free the slaves and give their God-given rights. Well - there's nothing wrong with that - except - - - - - - - the Civil War wasn't fought to free the slaves. Instead, freeing the slaves was intended as a by-product of the conflict. The top three reasons were: The South split the country (preserve the Union, says Lincoln), Northern textile mills lost their cotton supply (think of the lobbyists in Congress and the White House), and the South owed the US Treasury (they had a share in the debts of the US, and since they split, the South nullified those debts).

Slavery, you say? Well, here's the reality check. The North - other than a select few Radical Republicans (such as Douglass, as most Republicans in Congress back then were moderates) - didn't give a wooden nickel about slaves in the South!

So PLEASE don't tell me that we're in Iraq to liberate the nation. There are many motives for ANY military conflict. The cover reason, however, for the conflict (what they tell the citizens of the US) is the preserving freedom theme. You really don't think that Cheney, Bush, and those Jewish bankers don't want a share in the economic prosperity from Iraqi oil? (Well, the top Jewish executives want something for Israel as well. And there's nothing wrong with that.)

The next case is the Great War, or WWI. This cover reason for this conflict (what the gov't told the US citizens) is - one - the loss of American sailors and - two - the oppression of the Kaiser. So after the Allies won the war, the Kaiser was removed from power and retreated to a little duchy in northern Germany. The rest of Germany became the Weimar Republic.

Well guess what? The Germans LOVED the Kaiser and HATED the Weimar Republic and its foreign investors from US, UK, and France. In fact, this is how NAZI Germany came about - and also the NAZI hatred for the Jews. The Jews were the first foreign investors to take advantage of the Weimar Republic. The national economy was in shambles after WWI and the Jews had a big share of it. The result - jealousy and usurpation of the Allied powers by the NAZIs from Germany.

Why did the Germans love Hitler? Because he was like the old Kaiser! Thus if we go into Iran, where the people are comfortable with their divergent theocracy, then we're running into a mess similar to that of the Weimar Republic should we succeed. They don't want democracy - they want a theocracy and a dictatorship! Personally I'd say - America is in no position to judge the world. Let God sever the wicked from the righteous - He promised us so, and He will carry out His plan.

As for North Korea, America has already lost interest in East Asia. First, Vietnam was fought as a way to choke off the Soviets in E. Asia. But now the Soviets are defunct and China is the emerging political and economic superpower, invading N. Korea will only incur China's wrath and will end up with nuclear missiles aiming at American cities. Mao Zhe Dong of China once said, "As the lips rot, the teeth are exposed." The lips are N. Korea and the teeth are representative of China. China will fight to the LAST MAN if we invade N. Korea. Not only is this detrimental to the US economy, but it will result in SEVERE military and civilian casualties on BOTH sides.

So my friends, don't be rash and act on emotion. Think multifacetedly - God gave us a brain and logic - so use it when you can. As Christians, we shouldn't have the wish of an one-man army to change the world, but we should live our life for the glory of God and IMPACT those around us for God.

My 2-cents,

Vincent

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

did you even listen the link i provided? it explains everything in pure english from someone that has more right to ask for saddams head than us. If people tell us that it was none of our business, that is wrong. We as a free nation should never turn a blind eye to tyranny and oppression. Would you not help a man being mugged on the street because you feel that you would then have to help every other mugged man in the world? That its none of your business? Yes saddam was only one dictator in the world and there are many like him, but we cant attack them all at once and restore all their governments at once. one step at a time. I am in favor of liberation always. And if we need to have more troops to liberate Iran, or N. Korea then I will gladly sign up [military service] to give the people of those nations what is their God given right.

Too bad that has nothing to do with the war. How many billions of dollars have now been spent on Iraq? Do you have any clue how much help that could have provided for the needy and impoverished in this country?
We never have enough money for education, elderly assistance, medication, homeless shelters etc etc. Obviously the gov't had a little more in mind than just freeing some people who never wanted us there.
They love to put fear into the heart of the U.S., that way we'll never question anything.
Did someone say TERRORIST!!! Run...........

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

Do you have any clue how much help that could have provided for the needy and impoverished in this country?
We never have enough money for education, elderly assistance, medication, homeless shelters etc etc.

The federal government has NO RIGHT to perform any of those tasks listed above. The framers of the Constitution never included those performances for the federal government but reserved them for the states. The Department of Education and the Department of Urban Planning are disgraces. The government has taken AWAY the rights of states and individuals to perform those charities.

God has given Christians the OBLIGATION to help the widowed, the homeless, the elderly, the weak and the orphaned. We have a right to educate our children in the Truth of God. We cannot answer to God if we fail to perform those charities (People who are saved by the grace of God but does not share that grace and love should be questioned of their state of salvation.). Education should be privatized on the most part or AT LEAST reserved to the state and local governments.

 

[neverforsaken]

Too bad that has nothing to do with the war. How many billions of dollars have now been spent on Iraq? Do you have any clue how much help that could have provided for the needy and impoverished in this country?

do you have any idea how much of that money would have gone into saddams pockets? do you have any idea that even the charitable organization known as Oil for Food was abused by saddam and members of the UN for profit?

We never have enough money for education, elderly assistance, medication, homeless shelters etc etc.

We spend more on education than any other country in the world. Its the amount of beurocrats who spend it before it even reaches the students. we dont need more money, we need reform.

Obviously the gov't had a little more in mind than just freeing some people who never wanted us there.

Well duh. Every nation does things out of their own interests. whats the harm in helping a nation get rid of a dictator who kills his own people while at the same time promoting a stable government to do business with later? Just the same as we went for reasons other than freedom. so too, did nations like france and germany not help the iraqi people because of their own ambitions.

They love to put fear into the heart of the U.S., that way we'll never question anything.
Did someone say TERRORIST!!! Run...........

Didnt you know? a good amount of fear is acceptable to healthy living. The people who live without fear are the same people who jump off cliffs. Thats no way to run a country. I couldnt believe my ears when i heard the bleeding hearts talk about all the civilians that were going to be killed with blind ignorance that citizens are already being killed by saddam. How they acknoledge that saddam was evil and that he had to be stopped, but do nothing to stop it. You think the civil war was entirely about slavery? There were also economic issues which lead to the civil war. does that make it any less just? You liberals are hypocrites of the worste kind. Willing to let people suffer genocide just because you dont like President Bush. You make me sick.

 

[ahman]

i assume you have all listened to the interview, which has one recurring point which i have yet to hear answered in here. but assuming in the next couple of posts, i do hear some reason, let's look at some small insignificant facts:

-saddam openly welcomes terrorists.
-saddam hates the U.S
-weapons inspectors found no hint of weapons (wow, like they were going to, saddam conviniently stalled the for the two months he needed to dispose of them, then suddenly gave way, nothing sus there) but they did find a program to produce them, and even though it was shut down, there were plans to start it up again as soon as the weapons inspectors left.
-saddams cronies kill, rape, torture and pillage at will. because they feel like it, WHENEVER they feel like it. and it won't stop because we had a bee in our bonnet. under the US, there are civilian casualties, (duh, it's a war in a city, go figure) but far less than under saddam, and eventually the citizens will be free, and NOT have to CONSTANTLY live in fear. we can't have that though, that's reserved for Westerners, we wouldn't want to impose ourselves on the poor tyrant.
-The Gulf war never technically ended, there was a ceasefire called, and saddam did not obey the terms meaning that the US had every right to go in there and finish what they started.
-There are reports that Kuwait has traded Chemical weapons with Iraq.

with all that in mind, just put the US supposed alterior motives aside, how on earth can invading be a bad idea?

A) Invade, in the beginning people die, that sucks, but in the end, we have a nation free from oppression, offering citizens the day to day safety you take for granted.

B) Don't invade. terrorists chill out in Iraq, plan, scheme, design and generally do as they please (most of that will be aimed at the US or western countires mind you) and leave saddam in power, who now confident those pesky weapons inspectors have cleared him, can continue on his merry way with his WMD plan, building them up as he pleases, using those chemical weapons, oppressing his nation, killing as he see's fit and doing it all in the name of peace.

 

[12volt_man]

Now don't lynch me for posting this. I've said some bold and daring stuff here tonight and I can't back it up as it's only opinion.

Don't flatter yourself by thinking yourself "bold and daring". You're not.

**I've been asked to edit my post. Evidently, it's OK for you to make anti-Semitic remarks, but wrong for me to point them out.

Crazy world, huh?**