Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Timtofly]

Right, so you're not only calling me wicked, you are also calling all 10 of the virgins wicked.

Does anyone else see something wrong with that "interpretation"?

Not any more than lots of believers claiming the Lord's Day does not exist. Peter calls them ignorant.

 

[Zao is life]

Pure opinion and speculation with zero scriptural support. For those who believe the scriptures however, we know there is no future literal earthly 1000 year epoch.

Scripture itself throughout the Bible provides ample scriptural support, but suit yourself, because if I say that though scripture provides ample scriptural support but in an Age where the Bible's message regarding the all-encompassing Kingdom of Christ began to be ditched soon after the apostolic years, the sheep have become hard of hearing and follow their own opinions and the opinions of their teachers rather than the Teacher, then you will say that it's the sheep who believe in a literal thousand years who have become hard of hearing and follow their own opinions..

So you subscribe to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory then?
You must, for the Hades of 1 Cor 15:55-56 does not become part of Hell until Revelation 20:12-15! For you, this means Hades ("Sheol" in hebrew and "Purgatorio" in Latin) is still in existence exactly as the Catholic Church teaches.

1. Whenever Jesus spoke of eternal punishment, or the fire of eternal punishment/damnation in the gospels, the Greek word used is always Geena (from the Hebrew Gehenna or hinnom), but when He spoke about a place where souls had departed to, the Greek word used is always hades.

2. The Greek Septuaginta's translation of the Hebrew Old Testament also uses hades every time the word Sheol is used in Hebrew.

3. Peter spoke about angels who are bound in Tartarus, which I believe but stand to correction on, there is scant information about outside of Greek mythology, which considered it the lowest depth of hades.

Phil 2:9-11 "Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Rev 5:3 "And no one in Heaven, nor on the earth, nor under the earth, was able to open the book or to look at it."

Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and those that are in the sea, and all who are in them, saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever."

The souls "under the earth" must know about Jesus - they must have heard the gospel if they are to be praising Him and bowing to Him. Who are the souls "under the earth", if it's not another description of sheol/hades/purgatory?

I've never looked up what the Catholics believe regarding purgatory, and because I'm aware that they abused the Biblical concept of hades/purgatory, using it to squeeze money ("indulgences") out of peasants and the poor by promising them or their deceased family members "an easier time" in hades/purgatory if they cough up (which is one of the things Martin Luther fought against), I'm pretty sure they must have added and changed the little that the Bible says about sheol/hades/purgatory as they pleased, as they did with a number of scriptures. Nevertheless, just because the KJV and most English Bibles take the words geena, hades and tartarus and translate them all as "hell", this does not make "hell" a Biblical concept. The Greek does not say Jesus went to "hell" when He died - it says He went to hades, and guess what? He preached to the souls in hades. Since He preached the gospel on earth, what would He have preached, do you think? Not much point if those souls were in "hell" or eternal punishment already.

I believe in everlasting punishment/perdition but no one is suffering that fate yet - not even angels. They are bound in Tartarus, says Peter, waiting for the judgment of the last day.

There is not enough information offered in the Bible about the abode of the dead, or sheol/hades/purgatory, to develop a non-Biblical concept called "hell" which is a word that only appears in our language and in the languages of people who translate the equivalent of our word "hell". It's almost as though God wants us to think a lot more about life and the gift of eternal life in Christ, not about death.

So yes, I believe the Catholics, for once, are closer to the truth than the Protestants, even though they added and twisted to squeeze "indulgences" out of the peasantry. Death and hades are the two sides of the same coin - the souls in them will be delivered up, rendering hades empty, and that is when the final enemy, death, is destroyed in the lake of fire (because the last enemy to be destroyed is death).

 

[BABerean2]

That's all so true. Why even mention a thousand years if there is no such thing?

If you think the Book of Revelation does not contain symbolic language, do you believe the "Lamb" is an animal in the Book of Revelation?

Do you think the two witnesses are men made of wood and metal in Revelation 11:4, when they are described as the "olive trees" and "lampstands"?

Is Satan a giant flying lizard, when he is described as a "dragon"?

Why do you think there are exactly "twelve thousand" of each of the twelve tribes in the Book of Revelation, when none of the numerations of the tribes in the Old Testament come to those exact numbers?

Is Satan bound by a real "chain" like one from the hardware store? A man possessed by a demonic spirit in Mark 5 could not be bound by chains, because he broke them.

The only way to make your view of Revelation 20 work is by ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:15-18. It proves the book is not in chronological order.

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[Gregory Thompson]

Latter day saints?

Yeah, same meaning.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No... get serious... nothing was REFUTED by James chapter 3.
Did James chapter 3 say ANYTHING about what I just wrote?
You are really desperate if that is the best you can come up with.

I do not dispute His sheep follow His voice.
In case you did not understand... we are now talking about the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" (ever hear of it?) [Mat 25:1]
That happens AFTER all the saints have been saved/sealed [Rev 7:1-3]

So you cannot REFUTE a single word I said.
That would bother me if I were you.

Or do you think Jesus was LYING about the "wise virgins"
and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"?
I assure you, Jesus was not lying.

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This posting style reminds me of another poster, did you change your screen name recently?

 

[Zao is life]

If you think the Book of Revelation does not contain symbolic language, do you believe the "Lamb" is an animal in the Book of Revelation?

Do you think the two witnesses are men made of wood and metal in Revelation 11:4, when they are described as the "olive trees" and "lampstands"?

Is Satan a giant flying lizard, when he is described as a "dragon"?

Why do you think there are exactly "twelve thousand" of each of the twelve tribes in the Book of Revelation, when none of the numerations of the tribes in the Old Testament come to those exact numbers?

Is Satan bound by a real "chain" like one from the hardware store? A man possessed by a demonic spirit in Mark 5 could not be bound by chains, because he broke them.

The only way to make your view of Revelation 20 work is by ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:15-18. It proves the book is not in chronological order.

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You always bring up the above ridiculous argument about the quite obviously symbolic language being used to describe something that is quite obviously real, and each time you do, it proves nothing regarding the thousand years. Neither does Revelation 11:15-18 state that all humans will be killed and there will be no mortal survivors of the last days events going into the millennium.

Daniel 7:12 says ""and the rest of the beasts have caused their dominion to pass away, and a prolongation in life is given to them, till a season and a time." (YLT). But the other beast was destroyed:

Dan 7:11 "Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame."

This is the same as what Revelation 19 says about the beast and false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire - but Daniel 7 continues with "and the rest of the beasts have caused their dominion to pass away, and a prolongation in life is given to them, till a season and a time."

As I said, the honest Bible student must of necessity study all scripture in order to get a good understanding, and the understanding of those who do, is at least far deeper than yours, because you try to force scripture to fit a prior conclusion. You should try to approach the scriptures more scientifically. Good science produces and idea, then a theory based on the idea, then finds proof of the theory, but then when good science later discovers proof that the theory was false, it abandons the theory. You want God to mean what you have decided He should mean. You will remain stuck where you are till the Lord's parousia, and then you can ask the Lord to assign to you the task of doing a census on the mortal survivors of the nations who will be ruled over by Christ and His resurrected saints with Him.

Can you please address the issues in the OP.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting point but to me the Greek word used refers to a thousand and points to exactly a thousand years as we would understand it, otherwise the Greek would have used the word myrias.

I agree that there's a 1000 year reign because the sequence of events in Revelation resembles too closely day 6 of creation to the end sequence in revelation where the humans were cast out of the garden.

The millennium is day 7.

And if it were phrased, you know it has been said "a thousand years is like a day to the Lord" so this is "that day" it kind of reminds me of How Jesus took meaning out of the old testament passages.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree that there's a 1000 year reign because the sequence of events in Revelation resembles too closely day 6 of creation to the end sequence in revelation where the humans were cast out of the garden.

The millennium is day 7.

And the verbiage, you know it has been said "a thousand years is like a day to the Lord" so this is "that day" it kind of reminds me of How Jesus took meaning out of the old testament passages.

Yes. I believe in the possibility that the new heavens and earth is the 8th day. That's why the Revelation gives us sets of sevens. The seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh vial is poured out. What's the 8th? The Revelation tells us that the false Christ will be the 8th king or head of the beast (hence the 8th kingdom) but will be one of the seven. It's because Christ is the 8th king who rose from the dead on the 8th day, and the beast is an impostor.

The beast rises from the lowest place - the bottomless pit - and makes war against the saints, killing the two witnesses. Christ descends from the highest place - the throne of God - and destroys the beast and resurrects the saints to eternal life. Then He takes His rightful place as the 8th king of the real 8th kingdom.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes. I believe in the possibility that the new heavens and earth is the 8th day. That's why the Revelation gives us sets of sevens. The seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh vial is poured out. What's the 8th? The Revelation tells us that the false Christ will be the 8th king or head of the beast (hence the 8th kingdom) but will be one of the seven. It's because Christ is the 8th king who rose from the dead on the 8th day, and the beast is an impostor.

The beast rises from the lowest place - the bottomless pit - and makes war against the saints, killing the two witnesses. Christ descends from the highest place - the throne of God - and destroys the beast and resurrects the saints to eternal life. Then He takes His rightful place as the 8th king of the real 8th kingdom.

I tend to not get into that much detail, I think my studies intersect with eschatology due to historical patterns in the scripture repeating.

 

[iamlamad]

Not any more than lots of believers claiming the Lord's Day does not exist. Peter calls them ignorant.

Please define "the Lord's day."

 

[iamlamad]

...

So yes, I believe the Catholics, for once, are closer to the truth than the Protestants, even though they added and twisted to squeeze "indulgences" out of the peasantry. Death and hades are the two sides of the same coin - the souls in them will be delivered up, rendering hades empty, and that is when the final enemy, death, is destroyed in the lake of fire (because the last enemy to be destroyed is death).

I think, if you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus, that the common idea of "hell" (the fire side of hades) is not far off for the unrighteous. But back then there was the "Abraham's Bosom" side, where there was no fire or punishment. I understand that when Jesus arose, he emptied Abraham's Bosom and took all the righteous dead to heaven. It is empty now.

Jesus has taken enough people to SEE hell over the last few years, that adds to what the bible tells us. When the unrighteous die, that is where they go. And as Jesus said, there is a lot of wailing.

 

[Zao is life]

I think, if you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus, that the common idea of "hell" (the fire side of hades) is not far off for the unrighteous. But back then there was the "Abraham's Bosom" side, where there was no fire or punishment. I understand that when Jesus arose, he emptied Abraham's Bosom and took all the righteous dead to heaven. It is empty now.

Jesus has taken enough people to SEE hell over the last few years, that adds to what the bible tells us. When the unrighteous die, that is where they go. And as Jesus said, there is a lot of wailing.

So there is no need then for death and hades to deliver all the souls in them so that those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life can be cast into the lake of fire - where by then Satan, the beast and false prophet, and death and hades have also gone.

 

[BABerean2]

As I said, the honest Bible student must of necessity study all scripture in order to get a good understanding, and the understanding of those who do, is at least far deeper than yours, because you try to force scripture to fit a prior conclusion.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[Zao is life]

I think, if you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus, that the common idea of "hell" (the fire side of hades) is not far off for the unrighteous. But back then there was the "Abraham's Bosom" side, where there was no fire or punishment. I understand that when Jesus arose, he emptied Abraham's Bosom and took all the righteous dead to heaven. It is empty now.

Jesus has taken enough people to SEE hell over the last few years, that adds to what the bible tells us. When the unrighteous die, that is where they go. And as Jesus said, there is a lot of wailing.

I should have added what I agreed with in your statement to what I wrote in my first reply. What I wrote in my first reply was:

So there is no need then for death and hades to deliver all the souls in them so that those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life can be cast into the lake of fire - where by then Satan, the beast and false prophet, and death and hades have also gone.

There was a common belief which the Catholics are aware of that punishment or discomfort in hades was commensurate with how good or wicked the person was while still alive in the body. The rich man was experiencing a great deal of torment, suggesting he was pretty wicked while still alive in his body.

I believe that there is only one abode of departed souls, and Abraham's bosom was a section of hades where the experience of the souls was peace and hope, because like Noah and like Abraham, who believed God and it was "counted to them for righteousness", the souls in Abraham's bosom were likewise counted righteous for their faith.

I believe that yes, there was a chasm between Abraham's bosom and the rest of hades, as there is a chasm between hades and the lowest pit in hades, ie Tartarus ("the bottomless pit, the abyss); and yes, the souls in Abraham's bosom would have been taken by Jesus to heaven with Him, rendering Abraham's bosom empty .

Why? Because Christ had come, had died for their sins too, and had gone to hades, preached there, risen from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat down on the throne of God. If Jesus is in you, it's because after having been born of the flesh into the world, you have been born of the Spirit of Christ from above (the Greek words used in what Jesus said about the new birth are gennoa [birth] and anothen (from above). When the Spirit of God breathed life into Adam, Adam became a living soul. He died, spiritually when he sinned, but he was still a body and a soul.

Jesus said "I in you and you in Me" - and He is in heaven, so as Paul stated, "to live is Christ and to die is gain" and then he went on to say that he would prefer to die and to go home to the Lord.

So yes, I believe that Jesus also, for the same reason and through His death and resurrection, emptied Abraham's bosom.

 

[Dkh587]

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[Zao is life]

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


.

Please answer the points in my Op and please answer the question I asked which you have conveniently avoided - so that I can also stop ignoring your posts:

Be careful what you answer when you answer the question below, because you don't want to add to the words of Jesus, either by adding meaning to His words which is not there, nor take away from His words:

1. Who is Jesus speaking to in the verses below:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37-39).

2. In the above statement Jesus made, did He say that Jerusalem would never see Him again?

3. Did Jesus give Jerusalem a condition which they would need to fulfill in order to see Jesus again?

4. What is the condition?

Please answer the question, and address the facts in the OP, because you have once again failed to combine all scripture has to say about this, and I have to remind you, because you are hard of hearing and have not been reading this thread carefully - but I cannot remind you of the rest until you start answering my questions and until you address the issues raised in the OP of this thread.

 

[iamlamad]

So there is no need then for death and hades to deliver all the souls in them so that those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life can be cast into the lake of fire - where by then Satan, the beast and false prophet, and death and hades have also gone.

It would seem that Death and hell will be raised or resurrected with some kind of resurrection body, before the Great, white throne judgment. Perhaps the lake of fire is in a different location?

 

[BABerean2]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37-39).

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


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[parousia70]

So you think Jesus Returned while the Apostles were alive?
Or did "when you see these things" apply to the disciples alive when they occurred?
WOW... what a concept.

Yes to both.
Jesus and the apostles can be trusted to mean what they say... you don't have to make up polar opposite meanings to their words, when reading them as written doesn't fit your pet theology... we can trust they were true and correct as written.
WOW... what a concept indeed.

First, you should NEVER make the mistake of thinking Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand... that is a huge mistake.

Never said I did.
Do you believe it is limited to what YOU understand? or are there Biblical truths you admit you do not understand?
Perhaps you are the exception to your own rule?

Did you not READ what I wrote... it was ALL from Scripture.
Just for you.. I will give a brief recap of what I already said in detail.
Just for you.

"Last Saints" is not a scriptural term.
You appear to have made it up.

The Last Saints are called the "wise virgins" from the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] They are the ones included in the Final Harvest
and taken into the Marriage... before the "Door is Shut" [v25:10]

Please point to the scripture that teaches these people are to be rightfully, biblically referred to as the "Last Saints"?

Whoever they are, John sure seemed to believe he was one of them

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

Are you calling John a Liar? or are you saying he was simply mistaken?

BTW... did ANY of this happen while the Apostles were alive?

Only if you believe our Lord is a PROMISE KEEPER, as I do.

BTW: Was the Holy Spirit "taken out of the way" while the Apostles were alive?

What scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"?

Sounds like you made that one up too...

BTW... do you think Jesus was telling a fairy tale about these people?
Do you think Jesus was LYING?

Nope. He was not lying or telling a fairy tale.
Contrary to your apparent contention, When Jesus tells SPECIFIC PEOPLE that a SPECIFIC EVENT will befall THEM SPECIFICALLY, He can ABSOLUTELY be trusted. He is a promise keeper. He Indeed Kept His promises to the VERY PEOPLE He made them TO. (Revelation 3:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7)

Did this happen when the Apostles were alive?

Of course. Again, our Lord is a PROMISE KEEPER.

BTW... did ANY of this happen while the Apostles were alive?

Of course it did.
Where have you been?

Did ANY of this happen while the Apostles were alive?

Unless you are prepared to argue Jesus and the Apostles all got the timing wrong, and were either mistaken or lying when they promised all these things would happen, SHORTLY, SOON, QUICKLY, were AT HAND, ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE, IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, because it was THE LAST HOUR of the LAST DAYS, at the END OF THE AGES, back in THEIR GENERATION, the only POSSIBLE, BIBLICAL answer to your question is:

ABSOLUTELY.

 

[Zao is life]

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


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LOL Yusuf unny when you scream and shout. It smacks of someone who's getting really frustrated at the fact he cannot explain away any of the many scriptures and facts that get his pet theory into difficulty.

You've quoted a different and unrelated scripture in an attempt to explain what you cannot explain, but failed to answer the question, and you have still failed to address the OP in this thread.

So let me ask you another question:

In Revelation 20:10 we read about the devil being cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.

How long have the beast and false prophet been in the lake of fire when the devil arrives?