Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[iamlamad]

The BIG difference is: Amils take the literal passages literal and the figurative passages figurative. Premils take the literal passages figurative and the figurative passages literal.

I am beginning to think you live in a world of imagination.

 

[iamlamad]

Where is the soul of the Apostle Paul located at the present time?

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OF COURSE: with His spirit - in heaven. The spirit and soul are tied very tightly together, and can be separated only by the Word of God.

 

[iamlamad]

What is the probability of finding the same five characters in a verse of the Bible?
It only occurs in the two verses found below, which proves they are about the same event.
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This kind of exegesis explains why the protestant church of today is so divided on doctrine.

 

[BABerean2]

This kind of exegesis explains why the protestant church of today is so divided on doctrine.

Yes.

Any interpretation that does not agree with John Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine must be condemned as pure heresy, even though the doctrine is less than 200 years old...


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

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[Timtofly]

What is the probability of finding the same five characters in a verse of the Bible?
It only occurs in the two verses found below, which proves they are about the same event.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


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Must be hard to realize you are going to be punished and wished you has listened in Sunday School better????

 

[Timtofly]

Where is the soul of the Apostle Paul located at the present time?

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In an incorruptible body in Paradise.

 

[BABerean2]

In an incorruptible body in Paradise.

Do you just make these things up as you see fit, or do you have any scripture to go with this latest claim?


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[iamlamad]

You insert a coming where it doesn't exist and deny where it is explicit. You are fighting the Word of God. Pretrib is a man-made invention, as your posts prove.

Last trumpet

The 7 trumpets say what the rest of Scripture says that the coming of Christ is the end. You have no answer to that. It totally forbids Pretrib.

This seems to be the best you can do, run down other posters. The trumpets don't "say," they SOUND - a trumpet sound. But there are ACTIONS that happen after a trumpet sounds.

First off, the trumpets start the HURT in planet earth, as told in chapter 7. They are the start of God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners in the earth. They are the starting events of God's wrath.

Since you had no idea and came up with imagination and man made theories, why should I continue? I know you are not here to learn, but to push your theories off on others. Think about it! Your theory in he trumpet is completely out of the ball park. But then, so is every other subject we discuss.

My friend, I go by what the scriptures REALLY say, not what someone imagined someone else thought they hear a preacher teach.

Question: is the word "coming" found anywhere in chapter 11? No, and neither are there words that SOUND like a coming. You are stuck in a rut. What kind of a rut?
"you have no answer" rut. When the truth is, your preconceived glasses block all answers.

The truth is, when I first started reading your posts, I thought: "another school yard bully" - only here it is a thread bully. I will admit: you have become very good at what you do.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you just make these things up as you see fit, or do you have any scripture to go with this latest claim?

You read Paul? Paul is the expert on what a body is. Do you have an alt. Biblical author?

 

[sovereigngrace]

This seems to be the best you can do, run down other posters. The trumpets don't "say," they SOUND - a trumpet sound. But there are ACTIONS that happen after a trumpet sounds.

First off, the trumpets start the HURT in planet earth, as told in chapter 7. They are the start of God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners in the earth. They are the starting events of God's wrath.

Since you had no idea and came up with imagination and man made theories, why should I continue? I know you are not here to learn, but to push your theories off on others. Think about it! Your theory in he trumpet is completely out of the ball park. But then, so is every other subject we discuss.

My friend, I go by what the scriptures REALLY say, not what someone imagined someone else thought they hear a preacher teach.

Question: is the word "coming" found anywhere in chapter 11? No, and neither are there words that SOUND like a coming. You are stuck in a rut. What kind of a rut?
"you have no answer" rut. When the truth is, your preconceived glasses block all answers.

The truth is, when I first started reading your posts, I thought: "another school yard bully" - only here it is a thread bully. I will admit: you have become very good at what you do.

Once again, total avoidance. You skipped around every passage and every point.

 

[BABerean2]

You read Paul? Paul is the expert on what a body is. Do you have an alt. Biblical author?

Where did Paul say that those now in heaven have an incorrupible body?

Chapter, and verse?


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[iamlamad]

Once again, total avoidance. You skipped around every passage and every point.

Typical answer: just comment on the poster, not the post. You were mistaken on the trumpets, but of course won't admit it.

You find a coming where there isn't one. I hope you don't miss the one that is there: in chapter 19!

 

[iamlamad]

You insert a coming where it doesn't exist and deny where it is explicit. You are fighting the Word of God. Pretrib is a man-made invention, as your posts prove.

Let us look at the evidence!

Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Wow! You insert a coming where it doesn't exist get His comings confused. You are fighting the Word of God. Posttrib is a man-made invention, as your posts prove.'

First error: Matthew wrote, 'after the trib' of those days." That is timing. That would be AFTER the tribulation or AFTER the 70th week. In the Revelation timeline (which you deny, so it is no wonder we disagree so much) "after the trib" would be AFTER chapter 16. Low and behold, we DO find a coming after the trib in Revelation: it is very clear and no one misses it: chapter 19 is His coming to Armageddon.

2nd error: The sun is darkened, the noon has no light (because of the sun) and if you look up the Greek for "Darkened" you find "absence of light." Here God is talking about total darkness. That means no one can SEE either the sun or moon. We can only see them if light is there. Those that are students of Revelation know that near the end of the 70th week, God plunges the Kingdom of the Beast into total darkness - so dark it is painful. Again, people that are good students of the word know that the signs at the 6th seal are DIFFERENT. There the moon becomes blood red. How would anyone know that unless they could SEE IT? Here also the sun becomes black - and again, how would anyone know that unless they could SEE IT? The cosmic signs at the 6th seal are VISIBLE, while the cosmic signs after the trib of those days are invisible - not seen.

3rd error: TIME: Paul's rapture is just before wrath. Again, a true student of Revelation knows that WRATH starts at the 6th seal and with the first trumpet judgments.

4th error: supposing that at Paul's rapture "all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming' When in reality, at Paul's rapture Jesus remains hidden in a cloud. It is not written that ANY actually see Him. Of course those called up will see Him.

5th error and the biggest one: "from one end of heaven to the other." Sorry, but true bible students know that Paul's rapture gathers from the earth, not from the heavens. Yes, I understand that the air we breath can be called "heaven," but I also know when God refers to all around the earth, He uses different terms, such as "the four corners of the earth."

The truth is, this Matthew 24 gathering is a DIFFERENT gathering. God has promised to gather all of Israel BACK to Israel. This is probably God fulfilling that promise.

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. Big time ERROR, and something that cannot possibly be proven by scripture.

by the sound of the last trump This does not say "last trump." You are guessing or assuming. Indeed it cannot be. Good students of Revelation know that this trumpet will sound over 7 years from the "last trump." What you miss is Paul's last trump is a trumpet sound from a DIFFERENT SERIES of trumpets. In fact, this cannot be "the last trump" because that term connotes a series and here it is one lone trumpet sound. (If there is a last, there must also be a first and perhaps one in the middle.)

Finally, Paul does not specify angels gathering. Since the saints will "have wings" and will fly, the Holy Spirit will pull us all up to Him in the clouds - so no angels needed.

 

[iamlamad]

Mark 13:24-27, 31-32

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

This part of your post has the same answer as the Matthew 24 section. But there is one part of this passage that is different. Here the gathering is from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven,
proving this gathering cannot possibly be Paul's rapture gathering that gathers only from the earth. It is possible that Jesus "gather's the spirits in heaven that He will bring with him, but that would not be a part of the rapture gathering, but would take place before. It cannot be considered. What this is saying is that it gathers from ALL OVER heaven and earth. Where are the bodies of the dead in Christ? Under the earth. Where are the living in Christ? ON the earth. Paul's gathering would not include heaven. When the dead fly up, and then those alive and in Christ fly up, THEN they are "gathering" to Him in the clouds.

The biggest error in trying to make this gathering afte the trib' of those days is simply TIMING. Any good student of the bible keeps TIMING in mind. Paul is very clear on His timing: just before wrath. John concurs, showing us the raptured church in heaven before any part of the 70th week: the great crowd, too large to number.

 

[iamlamad]

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53

What is more, not only does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-30 correlate, but we get further detail in 1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53. There Paul says of this final Coming, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming (parousia). Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (katargeésee or abolished) all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This text shows us the catching away of the saints at the second coming. It also shows us that this is indeed the end.

Which is wiser: to pull doctrine from one single verse, of from an entire chapter on the same subject? What do I mean?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Both of these passages tell us there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the damned. But neither passage gives us timing information of either group. One could guess, from these verses that it all happens at the same time, yet in Revelation we see that the resurrection of the damned is a thousand years later. (this is of course only for those that BELIEVE John.)

There is no verse anywhere that actually shows us Jesus turning everything over to the Father. Paul tells us it will happen, but how much weight will you put one ONE WORD: "then?" The Greek word has also been translated as "after that" or "afterward." Since we see in Revelation Jesus reigns for a thousand years, AFTER the tribulation of those days, (the "trib" in Revelation is chapter 8 to chapter 16) Then Paul is dead on accurate in saying "afterwards."

This text shows us the catching away of the saints at the second coming. It also shows us that this is indeed the end. Wow! Right and wrong in one sentence! You try to form doctrine from a few words in one passage, when we have so many end time passages that disagree with your theory formed here.

 

[iamlamad]

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53

Scripture complementing Scripture is one of the great proofs of truth and means of enlightenment. That is what we are looking at when it comes to the trumpet sound that accompanies the Coming of Christ.

Here again we see the two distinct groups of redeemed mentioned who will be finally unified at Christ’s one final Coming. When Paul says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” he is saying that the dead in Christ will be resurrected with new bodies but the live in Christ will be instantly “changed.” Those that are alive do not need resurrected as they don’t die. They just need transformed from mortality to immortality. Paul explains it as: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The “dead in Christ” are gathered from “one end of heaven to the other” and come with Christ to be united with their new spiritual bodies. The ‘live in Christ’ on the other hand are gathered together from “the four winds” of earth and are caught up together with them after instantly receiving their new bodies. Collectively the redeemed are made one in the act of glorification. This ushers in the end.

The word rendered "last" in “last trump" is the Greek word eschatos meaning end, last, farthest or final. This negates the Pretrib idea of a further trumpet seven yrs later. We are therefore looking at the final trumpet sound at the one final Coming of Christ. What is more, by clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

Scripture complementing Scripture is one of the great proofs of truth and means of enlightenment. This of course is true ONLY if the two passages are truly of the same event. You can imagine or hope all you want that two passages are of the same time and event, but you have proven in your posts that you imagine non-related posts are speaking of the same event, when in truth, they are years apart and not the same. When people assume two passage are of the same event, when they are not, they are then "enlightened" in error. Then their preconceptions grow stronger. Case in point: trying to prove by scripture - or just assuming with no proof - that Paul's "last trump" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Or that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the "trump" of Matthew 24. A good student of Revelation knows the trumpets in Revelation are JUDGMENTS and the 7th is a WOE judgment. Why would ANY student of the bible imagine that a "woe" judgment would be the same as a trump to gather the elect? They only do such things when they ignore timing.

The “dead in Christ” are gathered from “one end of heaven to the other” This is imagination gone wild! It is imagining one passage, that is after the trib' aligns with Paul's rapture that is before the trib. It is truly creating a huge error in thinking. The preconceived glasses grow thicker with error.

The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other end of earth (Mark) cannot be Paul's rapture. TIME alone proves that. It comes AFTER the trib' where Paul's rapture comes before Wrath which is also before the trib. But then, for someone who ignores time and timing, they can imagine anything. Most _ _ _ _tribbers (fill in whatever) can't really find the rapture in John's timeline, nor can they find the "trib," yet they all THINK they know it is pre - post - or whatever. In other words, most cannot prove their belief with good exegesis. Some people can't even find John's timeline, imagining it is myth.

There is no scripture anywhere that tells us Jesus gathers the dead in Christ before He descends. All we know from scripture is that He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

The word rendered "last" in “last trump" is the Greek word eschatos meaning end, last, farthest or final. This negates the Pretrib idea of a further trumpet seven yrs later.
There is no scripture anywhere that tells us God sends out angels to gather up every trumpet, find and remove all plans on how to build trumpets, then remove the memory of trumpets from all humans, so no trumpet could ever be built again. That would be the only way to never again have another trumpet blast. That is not in any way the intent of scripture in "last trump." If there is a "last" that tells us there is also a "first" that comes before the last - else "last" would not be used. What this verse is telling us is that there is a SERIES of trumpets (such as at the Feast of trumpets) and the "last trump" is the final trumpet sound that ends the Feast. Or like the 7th trumpet in Revelation, the LAST of that series of trumpets. It certainly does not mean God cannot have trumpets in heaven, or on the new earth. Therefore, with a good understanding of this passage, OF COURSE there can be other trumpets later. God is not going to erase all trumpets so there can never be another trumpet sound.

if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it.
Yes, of course if there is a "last" there are others that precede it. If one understands John's timeline (seals - trumpets - vials) they know that Paul's "last trump" (the last of a certain series) will sound at the pretrib rapture that will come just before wrath or just before the 6th seal. (The church was seen in heaven in the next chapter).
Then the Matthew 24 trumpet where God gathers the elect from both heaven and earth will sound somewhere in Rev. 19 as He comes to Armageddon. John was not shown and did not hear that trumpet so did not write it. Matthew did write it. But in Matthew, it is not a "last" trump.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” This is nothing by myth and imagination, from not understand the Greek word behind "then." It only means "after that." It is a timing word, not a time word. It gives us ORDER in time, but not the time itself. In other words, the order would be the rapture, then, some unknown time after that, the end. What we do know from this passage is timing order: Christ rise first, then when He comes next, the dead in Christ will rise, then, some unknown time after that, death will be totally destroyed. However, after the pretrib rapture, death will already be destroyed for those who change into resurrection bodies. But after that, for example at Armageddon, millions will die. This proves death is not destroyed totally until some time AFTER He comes to Armageddon. Then at the end of the one thousands years, fire kills millions again, so death is not destroyed until sometime AFTER the 1000 years. Of course, for those that can't believe John, this will remain a mystery.

“put down all rule and all authority and power.” Of course this must be AFTER Satan is loosed again and deceived Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years, for they rise up in rebellion against King Jesus.

“all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord Except that is not at all what is written. This is just human imagination, not understanding the scripture, reading into it human imagination rather than taking the scriptures at their word. The truth is, all rule and power are put down some unknown time AFTER His coming. This is what happens when someone forms theory from an isolated passage, when theory must come from all end times scriptures.

What I have seen so far is very poor exegesis and understanding of scripture.

 

[iamlamad]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages that refer to the coming of Christ with the trumpet of God. For them to do otherwise would totally demolish their doctrine.

This is clear corroboration, something that Pretrib and Premil know nothing about.

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This writer simply does not understand that Christ is coming two more times. The first time, as shown in this passage, just before wrath (6th seal) and then again over 7 years later after the "trib" of those days - the "trib' or 70th week taking 7 years. His next coming, FOR His saints (to escort them all to the homes He has prepared) and to pull them from earth just before His wrath, is shown here. His third coming, over 7 years later, will be to Armageddon. There is no resurrection there; just His coming with the armies of heaven to fight. Here "every eye will see Him. AT His second coming, He remains hidden in a cloud. We simply don't know if He will be seen by the world or not, for Paul does not tell us.

how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. This is true, but it really stretching to present an idea that is not truth. He comes with SOME of His saints - those who have died in Christ. But that is only a part of His purpose. He is coming to REMOVE His church from earth and take them to the homes He has prepared in heaven. Some theories would have Jesus go and prepare homes and then forget to take us to the homes He prepared - or make sure His bride is beaten up and killed - overcome by His enemy first, just to see of she will be faithful! That way all His church would be dead in Christ.

No, sorry, but that is not the kind of God we serve. He is not making any appointments for His bride with His wrath. His purpose is to REMOVE His bride, take her to a safe place, and THEN pour out His wrath on a world that will not repent.

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. Well, it will be the end of the church age; but after that, the 70th week that will end the Jewish age.

Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints. This is human imagination again, with no regard for what the scriptures actually teach. This coming is just before wrath, which is at the 6th seal - which is proven by John seeing the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal. Yes, they are "tribulation" saints, for God has called the entire church age as tribulation and in chapter 7 as great tribulation. But the truth is, John, in HIS narrative, at that time has not even started the week, much less arrived at the last half of the week where Jesus said the days of great tribulation HE spoke of would happen. Of course, people that are blind to the chronology of Revelation will not understand this.

This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. You are again mixing two passages together - that don't fit together - to make a point in ERROR. The "elect" are gathering after the 70th week. The dead in Christ (and the alive) are gathered before the week. Of course, people that ignore John's timing and movement of time will not understand this. The truth is, the trumpet in Matthew 24 is not Paul's "last trump." It will sound over 7 years later than Paul's "last trump." This is scripture.

Get this straight: a trumpet will sound for the pretrib rapture - BEFORE WRATH as proven by Paul in 1 thes. 5. John shows us wrath starting at the 6th seal, and the WEEK starting at the 7th seal, so WRATH starts before the WEEK starts. Therefore, the RAPTURE comes before the week. It is scripture, plain and simple.

Then 7 years later, after the 70th week, Christ prepares to come for the third time, and at this coming will send out angels to gather together all those of ISRAEL who are in heaven and on earth - He will bring them all to Israel. He promised to do it and will keep His promise. At this coming a trumpet will sound.

none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed This is just more myth and human imagination. The truth is, "none excape" is not talking about death. If there is a worldwide earthquake, then the whole world is shaking and none can escape it. But that does not mean all die. AGain, when one understands bible TIMING for these events, it is very plain that PEOPLE live after the pretrib rapture.

What most people miss, is that when God pulls together the "dust" that once formed the bodies of the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ are around the world. This worldwide earthquake (see Matthew 27) will be Paul's "sudden destruction." No one will escape, but all will not die: people will live to later be overcome or later take the mark. Of course, people that don't understand the TIMING of end time events will not understand this.

allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib. Total myth and a lack of understanding of these scriptures and WHEN they occur. The truth is, when the pretrib rapture hits, it is going to cause massive destruction and SHOCK to the world. Cars will be speeding down the road with no driver. Planes will be flying with no pilot. Millions will be looking for their loved ones that suddenly just disappeared. All parents with young children will be frantically trying to find them, but they will have disappeared. This will leave the world is SHOCK, but not dead. It is a myth that the rapture event will destroy all those left behind.

Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages The truth is, some put passages together when they happen over 7 years apart.

This is clear corroboration The truth is, this post shows a massive misunderstanding of scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This seems to be the best you can do, run down other posters. The trumpets don't "say," they SOUND - a trumpet sound. But there are ACTIONS that happen after a trumpet sounds.

First off, the trumpets start the HURT in planet earth, as told in chapter 7. They are the start of God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners in the earth. They are the starting events of God's wrath.

Since you had no idea and came up with imagination and man made theories, why should I continue? I know you are not here to learn, but to push your theories off on others. Think about it! Your theory in he trumpet is completely out of the ball park. But then, so is every other subject we discuss.

My friend, I go by what the scriptures REALLY say, not what someone imagined someone else thought they hear a preacher teach.

Question: is the word "coming" found anywhere in chapter 11? No, and neither are there words that SOUND like a coming. You are stuck in a rut. What kind of a rut?
"you have no answer" rut. When the truth is, your preconceived glasses block all answers.

The truth is, when I first started reading your posts, I thought: "another school yard bully" - only here it is a thread bully. I will admit: you have become very good at what you do.

The seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for what I am presenting to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. The last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 correlates in every detail with the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second coming. Firstly, we can see the angel comes clothed with a cloud. Significantly, the Lord prophesied of His return, “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” Please refer also to Mark 14:61-62, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7).

Secondly, the angel comes crowned with a rainbow. The rainbow crowned upon this great angel’s head reminds us that we serve a mighty covenant keeping God. It is clearly a marvellous symbol of providential nature of God and His faithfulness. None but Christ would be qualified to adorn such a symbol, being the bodily manifestation of the living holy God. We see the same symbolic rainbow surrounding Christ when John was caught up in the Spirit into heaven in Revelation 4 to receive the revelation about the Church and the end times. John explicitly says, “there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald” (v3).

Thirdly, the angel's face shines as sun. Malachi 4:2 confirms our Lord is “the sun of righteousness.” Fourthly, the angel comes with fire. Jesus said, in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” This agrees with Revelation 19, 2 Peter 3 and countless other similar texts that show this fiery end to the tribulation period. Finally, the angel cries “with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth” Christ is symbolically likened unto a Lion in Revelation 5. He is called “the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David.”

It seems quite evident that we are looking at the one and only last trump which sounds at Christ solitary future Coming, which witnesses the end of the tribulation. This is in stark contrast to the weak claims made by our Pretrib brethren over the years that Revelation 4:1 is a record of a secret rapture, when it is in fact a simple record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago.

Our understanding is further reinforced by the detail attached to this reading in Revelation 10:5-7. It says of last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single final Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such concrete evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the pretribulationist doctrine. In doing so they oppose the clear truth of God’s Word rather than those who firmly hold the truth.

Revelation 11:18 concludes in climactic detail, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth.”

Notably, the “wrath of God” here is shown to “come” (erchomai Strong’s 2064) at the last trumpet. This indeed is the day of the Lord. This is the time when the dead are finally judged. It is the event when the “saints” receive their “reward” and correspondingly the ungodly it says God will “destroy.” Revelation 11:18 basically describes the judgment that accompanies the final or last trumpet.

Passage after passage knits perfectly together showing that the tribulation period ends with the one final climactic future Coming of Christ. The righteous are rescued immediately before God’s wrath is poured out upon all those left behind.

Whilst this is a glorious day for God’s elect it will be a day of ultimate terror for the wicked when they realise that they have missed God final opportunity and the door of grace has been slammed in their face forever.

 

[Timtofly]

Where did Paul say that those now in heaven have an incorrupible body?
Chapter, and verse?

Paul explains the type of Body. Jesus Christ explains the when. Nicodemus asked if a person had to enter the womb again. You tell me when the change occurs. It does not happen during physical life, or some would have incorruptible bodies now. It happens at death, because the thief was physically with God that day, when he died on the Cross and was born from above.

Your definition of the spiritual birth has no explanation. The spiritual birth is an incorruptible body. The change is at death. Paul says we shall not all die, but we will all be changed. Death is the change, no? Only those alive at His coming will be changed in the air.

Paul does not say the change or being born again has to wait for both the NT and OT dead until the return. The change was available at the Cross. That is when the souls of those in Abraham's bosom were given incorruptible bodies, to enter Paradise. Until the Cross, entrance of flesh and blood was denied. At the Cross all OT believers were born again. That is why Nicodemus had no understanding of the second birth. All the OT were in sheol in Abraham's bosom as souls, not bodies. We have no excuse, we have the NT that explains it to us.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This writer simply does not understand that Christ is coming two more times. The first time, as shown in this passage, just before wrath (6th seal) and then again over 7 years later after the "trib" of those days - the "trib' or 70th week taking 7 years. His next coming, FOR His saints (to escort them all to the homes He has prepared) and to pull them from earth just before His wrath, is shown here. His third coming, over 7 years later, will be to Armageddon. There is no resurrection there; just His coming with the armies of heaven to fight. Here "every eye will see Him. AT His second coming, He remains hidden in a cloud. We simply don't know if He will be seen by the world or not, for Paul does not tell us.

how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. This is true, but it really stretching to present an idea that is not truth. He comes with SOME of His saints - those who have died in Christ. But that is only a part of His purpose. He is coming to REMOVE His church from earth and take them to the homes He has prepared in heaven. Some theories would have Jesus go and prepare homes and then forget to take us to the homes He prepared - or make sure His bride is beaten up and killed - overcome by His enemy first, just to see of she will be faithful! That way all His church would be dead in Christ.

No, sorry, but that is not the kind of God we serve. He is not making any appointments for His bride with His wrath. His purpose is to REMOVE His bride, take her to a safe place, and THEN pour out His wrath on a world that will not repent.

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. Well, it will be the end of the church age; but after that, the 70th week that will end the Jewish age.

Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints. This is human imagination again, with no regard for what the scriptures actually teach. This coming is just before wrath, which is at the 6th seal - which is proven by John seeing the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal. Yes, they are "tribulation" saints, for God has called the entire church age as tribulation and in chapter 7 as great tribulation. But the truth is, John, in HIS narrative, at that time has not even started the week, much less arrived at the last half of the week where Jesus said the days of great tribulation HE spoke of would happen. Of course, people that are blind to the chronology of Revelation will not understand this.

This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. You are again mixing two passages together - that don't fit together - to make a point in ERROR. The "elect" are gathering after the 70th week. The dead in Christ (and the alive) are gathered before the week. Of course, people that ignore John's timing and movement of time will not understand this. The truth is, the trumpet in Matthew 24 is not Paul's "last trump." It will sound over 7 years later than Paul's "last trump." This is scripture.

Get this straight: a trumpet will sound for the pretrib rapture - BEFORE WRATH as proven by Paul in 1 thes. 5. John shows us wrath starting at the 6th seal, and the WEEK starting at the 7th seal, so WRATH starts before the WEEK starts. Therefore, the RAPTURE comes before the week. It is scripture, plain and simple.

Then 7 years later, after the 70th week, Christ prepares to come for the third time, and at this coming will send out angels to gather together all those of ISRAEL who are in heaven and on earth - He will bring them all to Israel. He promised to do it and will keep His promise. At this coming a trumpet will sound.

none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed This is just more myth and human imagination. The truth is, "none excape" is not talking about death. If there is a worldwide earthquake, then the whole world is shaking and none can escape it. But that does not mean all die. AGain, when one understands bible TIMING for these events, it is very plain that PEOPLE live after the pretrib rapture.

What most people miss, is that when God pulls together the "dust" that once formed the bodies of the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ are around the world. This worldwide earthquake (see Matthew 27) will be Paul's "sudden destruction." No one will escape, but all will not die: people will live to later be overcome or later take the mark. Of course, people that don't understand the TIMING of end time events will not understand this.

allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib. Total myth and a lack of understanding of these scriptures and WHEN they occur. The truth is, when the pretrib rapture hits, it is going to cause massive destruction and SHOCK to the world. Cars will be speeding down the road with no driver. Planes will be flying with no pilot. Millions will be looking for their loved ones that suddenly just disappeared. All parents with young children will be frantically trying to find them, but they will have disappeared. This will leave the world is SHOCK, but not dead. It is a myth that the rapture event will destroy all those left behind.

Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages The truth is, some put passages together when they happen over 7 years apart.

This is clear corroboration The truth is, this post shows a massive misunderstanding of scripture.

Because you have no proof text anywhere in Scripture you keep resorting to Daniel 9 to sustain your theory. However, time and time again Pretribbers have carefully ducked around the most basic question pertaining to Daniel 9 that forbid your teaching.

If scriptural proof means anything to Pretribbers, I will ask again:

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?