Is the The Ashtiname of Muhammad real

prodromos

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I'm pretty sure it is genuine. Trouble with Islam is that later decisions of Mohammed supersede the former, so they can trample all over earlier agreements with a clear Moslem conscience, so I doubt you will get many Moslems paying much attention to it.
 
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rusmeister

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It will clearly be used now to promote the idea among our people that Islam can, should, and will be tolerant to us. As such, it is essentially a falsehood, whatever else may be true about it. A document that didn’t even exist for a thousand years of Islam - or more, it depends on what you believe about what is claimed - is not going to have significant effect on how the Islamic world actually treats us in the long run. All will be as it has always been, and we are still the kafir, the ones who resist, and the commands in the Koran to subdue and slay us are still there.
 
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dzheremi

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While I know better than to directly question the authenticity of it as it has been received by EO people on their own board, I do think there is some legitimate reason to question whether or not it was meant specifically for the monks of St. Catherine's, rather than any given monastic community that might fall under the rule of Muslims (i.e., written to apply in any such case, including that one).

Not only are there similar letters that it can be shown to related to in its form (i.e., the letter of Muhammad to the Christians of Najran, as preserved in the Chronicle of Seert; the Nestorians behind the Chronicle would say similarly that the letter to the Christians of Najran is authentic, even though it's obviously not attempted to be presented there as the autograph), there is also the question how it could be meant to apply specifically to a monastery in the Sinai when Muhammad was not even alive when the Arab conquests began in that area. The conquest of Egypt occurred under the subsequent Rashidun (the first four caliphs after Muhammad's death), with 'Amr Ibn al 'As not even setting out for Egypt until December of 639, whereas Muhammad died in 632. There is absolutely zero evidence that Muhammad ever set foot anywhere in the Sinai Peninsula, and even the conquest of the wider Levant didn't begin in earnest until after Muhammad died, as in the immediate aftermath of his death the Rashidun were bogged down by the Ridda wars, which wouldn't end until the following year. If I recall correctly, Muhammad himself never made it any further north in battle than perhaps into a tiny sliver of Jordan, and even then that's not clear, because the battle there took place while he was alive (the Battle of Mutah, 629 AD), but he apparently didn't take part in it (so the question is if they would've carried him around for stuff he wasn't involved in). He seems to drop off the military radar at some point a bit before his death due to illness (the last battle he took place in being the Battle of Tabouk in October-December of 630), leaving Usama Bin Zayd to attempt to invade Palestine under the tutelage of Abu Bakr in May of 632. This "expedition of Usama Bin Zayd" is listed as chronologically last on the list of expeditions of Muhammad, and seeing as how Muhammad died on June 8, 632, we can assume that he was too ill by that point to have done anything more than perhaps inspire the planning of it at the very outset. We might do well to remember/realize that according to Islamic sources Muhammad's eventual death was brought on by poisoning following the Islamic conquest of Khaybar, which is an oasis north of Medina (still well within the borders of modern KSA), which took place several years before in 628. (Not the most effective poisoning in the world, I suppose, but it couldn't have happened to a nicer fellah.)

Given all this, I'd be willing to bet it's authentic in the sense of representing a legitimate tradition of some sort, but that probably somewhere along the way it got conflated with some other stuff that was closer to Muhammad's own time period, probably to the monks' and monastery's benefit.

Unless, again, Muhammad dictated this to 'Ali to be given to monastic communities that they presumed would later fall under Islamic control after Muhammad's own death, of which St. Catherine's would've obviously been one. This seems very plausible to me, as there are parts of the Qur'an itself that are very praiseworthy towards Christians on account of their monasticism in particular (e.g., 5:82), and the forms of Christianity taken up by the Arabs tended to be very much inclined towards hermeticism, probably in keeping with the Arabs' own nomadic lifestyles. (Those who were more sedentary or became so over time tended to be linguistically/culturally 'Syrianized' -- i.e., to adopt Syriac at least as a language of worship if not always a first language; see here Trimingham's Christianity Among the Arabs in Pre-Islamic Times. This might also help explain why we don't have any written evidence of the Bible existing in Arabic prior to the rise of Islam, as discussed in Griffith's more recent book The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the "People of the Book" in the Language of Islam.)

So...yes? No? Sort of? Maybe? I wouldn't blame anyone for just taking the local Bedouins' word for it, and to the extent that it can be traced back in written form to at least some point in the Middle Ages, it's 'authentic' so far as that goes. Generations of Muslim leaders have seen it as their duty to abide by it, and I'd care a lot more about that (since it directly involves the treatment of Christians in lands occupied by Islam) than whether or not every detail is historically accurate. Maybe I'm crazy, but as a Christian it wouldn't change a thing to me if Muhammad came back from the dead today to either certify it or deny it, because who is Muhammad anyway? But if it compels Muslims to not treat Christians anywhere like subhuman garbage, then good.
 
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MariaJLM

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Having just figured out what the OP is referring to(which I did actually know was a thing, I just didn't realize it actually had a name) it could very well be real. Before Muhammad had an army and political power he was actually quite friendly to Jews and Christians. Do we know which period the letter is said to be from specifically?
 
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rusmeister

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Like I said, I really don’t think it matters how legit it is. Muslims are essentially Protestant, the interpretation of your local imams is everything, and the Muslims who take seriously the other contradicting verses in the Koran and the other teachings in the Hadith about killing us are not going to use this much more debatable thing as a guide. They’re not going to change their own 1400-year tradition of kicking into submission those who will not convert voluntarily and killing those who won’t even then, but they’ll be happy to let us think that they will change it until they get enough power. Front groups like the Ahmadi who are actual pacifists will be used to appeal to our desire for tolerance and peaceful coexistence until they are no longer needed, and then they will be swept aside, as is the case throughout the Islamic world. They have no power and rule nothing there.

I was shocked by how fast they are taking over Minnesota, for example.

This document, legit or not, will be just a tool to get us to smile and welcome a complex of enemies who are determined to deny Christ and even to ally with the “LGBT” sexual anarchists that they cannot tolerate, and to wipe us out of our own lands and have our children bow to their Tash version of Allah, as they did 1400 years ago in the Byzantine Roman Empire.
 
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MariaJLM

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you got your info from a twitter page, and an Islamic forum page. that's not source material. nothing I read on those pages actually shows hard evidence that supports it's a later forgery. please, just stop.

Honestly, this Orthodox obsession with discrediting anything even remotely Islamic gets tiring. Yes, we're all aware of Islam's negative history with the church, but not every single Muslim is out to kill us. Some are actually very respectful of the church.
 
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Barney2.0

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Honestly, this Orthodox obsession with discrediting anything even remotely Islamic gets tiring. Yes, we're all aware of Islam's negative history with the church, but not every single Muslim is out to kill us. Some are actually very respectful of the church.
It’s not that it’s Islamic, it’s just that it is simply of dubious origins, there’s no proof Mohammed wrote it at all.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Honestly, this Orthodox obsession with discrediting anything even remotely Islamic gets tiring. Yes, we're all aware of Islam's negative history with the church, but not every single Muslim is out to kill us. Some are actually very respectful of the church.

that's true. St John of Damascus and his father both worked for the civil Muslim governments, and both had good relationships with Muslims.
 
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rusmeister

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Honestly, this Orthodox obsession with discrediting anything even remotely Islamic gets tiring. Yes, we're all aware of Islam's negative history with the church, but not every single Muslim is out to kill us. Some are actually very respectful of the church.
I doubt anyone here thinks every single Muslim is out to kill us. It should be obvious that, just like with Christians, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are nominal believers in their own faith, and want a peaceful and prosperous life in terms of this world, and do not object if others also have one, and don’t even care if other people don’t share their ostensible religion.

But the fact remains that the teachings of that religion, speaking about the general rule and consensus over history, space and time, command that Muslims work to convert the entire Earth to Islam, so that the peace of Allah be over all. Jihad, and imitating the Prophet, are imperatives that the majority of nominal believers prefer to ignore, and splinter groups like the Ahmadi actively deny. But they will be acknowledged by the majority if pressed, and when they attain enough political power, they always institute Sharia law over the areas they control. And according to those teachings that Muslims must submit to, we are the kafir, and if we will not submit and become dhimmi, then we must be treated according to the teachings of the Koran and the Hadith, and how their consensus understands that.
 
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AMM

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But the fact remains that the teachings of that religion, speaking about the general rule and consensus over history, space and time, command that Muslims work to convert the entire Earth to Islam, so that the peace of Allah be over all. Jihad, and imitating the Prophet, are imperatives that the majority of nominal believers prefer to ignore, and splinter groups like the Ahmadi actively deny. But they will be acknowledged by the majority if pressed, and when they attain enough political power, they always institute Sharia law over the areas they control. And according to those teachings that Muslims must submit to, we are the kafir, and if we will not submit and become dhimmi, then we must be treated according to the teachings of the Koran and the Hadith, and how their consensus understands that.
yes, but also no. Islam developed a lot from its inception, and a lot of that was catalyzed by the Crusades. Islam basically sees Christianity and Judaism as degrees of truth: the Quran doesn't annul the past, but it upgrades it. It's not that Christianity and Judaism are wrong, they were once Allah's revelation to humankind, but Islam as revealed to Muhammad is superior to them, purer, most correct, etc.

"Jihad" was initially akin to podvig, religious struggle against one's own sins. It didn't come to mean holy war against Christians until much later (10th c. at the earliest).

When the Quran refers to "polytheists" and "pagans", that's not Christians and Jews. It's polytheistic religious tribes of the arabian peninsula. Islam was very favorable to Christianity for a lot of its period, and wars tended to be political, not religious at first.

Yes it's different now. But you also can't just look at the extremist groups and assume that is what Islam teaches as a whole
 
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rusmeister

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yes, but also no. Islam developed a lot from its inception, and a lot of that was catalyzed by the Crusades. Islam basically sees Christianity and Judaism as degrees of truth: the Quran doesn't annul the past, but it upgrades it. It's not that Christianity and Judaism are wrong, they were once Allah's revelation to humankind, but Islam as revealed to Muhammad is superior to them, purer, most correct, etc.

"Jihad" was initially akin to podvig, religious struggle against one's own sins. It didn't come to mean holy war against Christians until much later (10th c. at the earliest).

When the Quran refers to "polytheists" and "pagans", that's not Christians and Jews. It's polytheistic religious tribes of the arabian peninsula. Islam was very favorable to Christianity for a lot of its period, and wars tended to be political, not religious at first.

Yes it's different now. But you also can't just look at the extremist groups and assume that is what Islam teaches as a whole

I don’t “look at extremist groups and assume” anything. I happen to know a fair amount of actual history, and over the past several years have learned somewhat of the various divisions of Islam and what is taught among them and what was commonly accepted across Islamic history. That has kicked into overdrive with my mother being suckered by the Ahmadi.

Sorry, but I can’t accept this version of things. It leaves out and ignores the massive conquests of the 7th to 11th centuries that were the very reason for the Crusades, a small, limited and late thing compared to the CONTINUOUS jihad conducted from the very beginning. I already have a fairly extensive knowledge of the history, enough to recognize versions that cannot possibly be true, like the one you present here.

So no, and no. I have no interest in listening to Islamic apologetics that simply aren’t true at all.

Some things you say ARE true, but they are irrelevant. It IS true that pagans and polytheists are lower on the Islamic totem pole than Christians and Jews, “people ofvthe book”, but those that resist are still kafir, those that submit are still dhimmi, it’s not just pagans and polytheists that are shoved under the Islamic boot.

“Extremism” is a falsehood made up for, and used to deceive, modern Westerners who have no real faith of their own. We should be extremely good. There is extreme wickedness. But there is no such thing as “truth in moderation” which is what the idea of “extremism” logically implies. Islam is either true or false; it CAN have truth in degrees, but a sincere Muslim will logically WANT to be extremely Muslim, and to emulate the Prophet as much as he can, extremely, and not in moderation, to a certain point. It is precisely to the extent that he would moderate his own religion that he is a nominal, and not a true believer.

The word “extreme” won’t fly with me. I recognize it as a term used by people who do not understand sincere traditional religious belief at all.

The “extremist” groups are the ones who really believe in their own tradition. The rest are either splinter groups that believe something else entirely that is not Islam, but is passed off as such (such as the Ahmadi) or they are nominals who have no influence on actual actions taken on a religious basis, just like the mass of nominal Christians who don’t really believe their own faith.
 
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dzheremi

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"Jihad" was initially akin to podvig, religious struggle against one's own sins.

When Christians use that word (or are named that...), yes. In Islam, it does often mean armed struggle. The armed campaigns associated with Muhammad since the Hijrah (over 100 in total; check the link in my previous post) show that Islam really does have as one of its central concepts armed expansionism. It's not only that, but to overlook it in favor of 'spiritualizing' it, as though it wasn't meant to be that way, is to ignore much of it.

It didn't come to mean holy war against Christians until much later (10th c. at the earliest).

Has it occurred to you that in much of the territory originally conquered by Muhammad, Christians were simply exiled, so they weren't even around anymore to be fought against until later, as the Muslim forces advanced further out of Arabia? This was the case with many of the tribes of Arabia proper (e.g., the Ghassanids, etc.), and continued on after Muhammad's death with an explicitly Islamic justification, since Muhammad said in his final sermon that there should not exist two religions in Arabia (only Islam), so the Christian tribes were sent to Mesopotamia, Syria, etc. And of course it didn't help that others like the Taghlib fought on the side of the rebellious Arab tribes during the Ridda wars after the death of Muhammad.

Later on, when the Muslims actually had to face Christian-majority societies that were prepared to fight them (though obviously not as much as they should have been!), as in Egypt, it took several centuries the last revolts against Muslim rule were definitively put down.

When the Quran refers to "polytheists" and "pagans", that's not Christians and Jews. It's polytheistic religious tribes of the arabian peninsula.

It calls us disbelievers and compares our saying that Jesus is God to paganism, and also calls on Allah to destroy us on that account. (Surat al Tawbah, verse 30) Is this not then splitting hairs? Oh, they don't call us by a specific word in one particular source! That's really going to reattach heads to bodies, now isn't it!

Islam was very favorable to Christianity

Certain aspects of Christianity, yes. Anything that disagreed/disagrees with the Qur'an and Islam, no.

for a lot of its period

Ehhh...define 'a lot'... :confused:

and wars tended to be political, not religious at first.

You write that as though Islam is like Christianity and actually distinguishes between the two as part of its character rather than when it is forced to. Read the Constitution of Medina (supposedly written by Muhammad himself), if you haven't. It really, really doesn't.

Yes it's different now. But you also can't just look at the extremist groups and assume that is what Islam teaches as a whole

Who is this directed to? I see some assumptions in your post, but not so much the others'.
 
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MariaJLM

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yes, but also no. Islam developed a lot from its inception, and a lot of that was catalyzed by the Crusades. Islam basically sees Christianity and Judaism as degrees of truth: the Quran doesn't annul the past, but it upgrades it. It's not that Christianity and Judaism are wrong, they were once Allah's revelation to humankind, but Islam as revealed to Muhammad is superior to them, purer, most correct, etc.

"Jihad" was initially akin to podvig, religious struggle against one's own sins. It didn't come to mean holy war against Christians until much later (10th c. at the earliest).

When the Quran refers to "polytheists" and "pagans", that's not Christians and Jews. It's polytheistic religious tribes of the arabian peninsula. Islam was very favorable to Christianity for a lot of its period, and wars tended to be political, not religious at first.

Yes it's different now. But you also can't just look at the extremist groups and assume that is what Islam teaches as a whole

"Jihad" has meant different things over time. In the earliest days of Islam it was purely spiritual struggle, but then it became about armed struggle as well, particularly around the time of the Crusades. The concept even today goes through a lot of changes. Like, the Ahmadis don't even believe in armed struggle at all(which is often a point of confusion locally since our largest Muslim community here is Ahmadi).

Islamic terrorism as we know it today is also fairly modern, having roots in the 1800's from Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The Ottomans and other Islamic empires were in a lot of ways not much different from other empires at the time. Conquest by the sword and subduing the locals was simply the thing for empires to do back then. The ancient world did it, the Medieval world did it. Heck, even the early modern world did it.
 
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rusmeister

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"Jihad" has meant different things over time. In the earliest days of Islam it was purely spiritual struggle
No, it was not.
Islamic terrorism as we know it today is also fairly modern, having roots in the 1800's from Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. The Ottomans and other Islamic empires were in a lot of ways not much different from other empires at the time. Conquest by the sword and subduing the locals was simply the thing for empires to do back then. The ancient world did it, the Medieval world did it. Heck, even the early modern world did it.
This is simply Islamic apologetics. Can you tell me about the siege of Famagusta leading up to the battle of Lepanto, and what was done to Antonio Bragadin? Probably not. Perfectly acceptable stuff, eh? Par for the course, eh? I think not.
 
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MariaJLM

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No, it was not.

This is simply Islamic apologetics. Can you tell me about the siege of Famagusta leading up to the battle of Lepanto, and what was done to Antonio Bragadin? Probably not. Perfectly acceptable stuff, eh? Par for the course, eh? I think not.

It's really not. Look at history and you'll see that nearly every major empire was into conquering their neighbours. Islam is really not unique in that respect. The only unique thing about them is that their lust for violence has continued into the present day.
 
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