Is the seventh day the Sabbath?

[from scratch]

So what are the commandments?

The commandments of what?

 

[from scratch]

It is just that you know that you have to/need to do the same things that the commandments require.
So while not admitting you keep the commandments you do the things of the commandments! But the one that do the things of the commandments and says you should is a legalist?

Nope!!! My previous posts still stand. You'll not ever get me to say that merely by not murdering I or anyone else keep the law. Your ploy is that saying such will be then why don't you keep the Sabbath. Indeed the requirement is to keep the whole law if you keep any of it for the purpose of salvation. One can't practice willful sin and be justified. Your conscience says you sin if you don't keep the law (well amended law) and therefore aren't justified. You'll never drag me into that disparaging state of hopeless failure. I've been there thanks to well meaning manipulative religious teachers (including pastors). They have to protect their income. It means they get to eat.

 

[from scratch]

Hi again Scratch,
What do you think of this translation:

"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." {Romans 3:31 NASB}

If you don't feel that translation is saying what Paul intended to say, would you share one that you believe does. Thanks

What does establish the law mean to you? I expect you to live up to your moniker and be honest.

 

[Honest Al]

What does establish the law mean to you? I expect you to live up to your moniker and be honest.

I'll try.
Paul in that verse says, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

So my first answer to your question is that to "establish" the law must be pretty much the opposite--"on the contrary"-- of "nullifying" the Law.

nullify: To annul; or make void (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)
establish: To ratify what has been previously set or made. "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31 (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)

If you don't mind: Tell me, what do you think Paul means when he says, "we establish the Law?"

God Bless

P.S.--I agree with you where you said that the fact that we don't commit murder doesn't prove that we're law-keepers. I could take the worst sinner in the world and put him in solitary confinement and he wouldn't kill anyone, or steal from anyone. etc., etc., but that certainly wouldn't prove that he had God's law written on his heart. That's the lesson Jesus was trying to teach the rich young ruler.

 

[from scratch]

Hi Cribstyl,
I'm not quite sure where we agree with each other, and where we don't.
I definitely agree with you when you say, "It's not saying, if you keep the 10 or 613 commandments you're showing that you love your neighbor." I also agree with you, and Paul, that we're made right with God by faith, not by keeping the law.
Let me share 2 more verses to show you what I believe (and what I believe the Bible teaches):

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them." {Matthew 5:17 NIV}

"It makes no difference whether or not a man is circumcised. The important thing is to keep God's commandments." {1 Corinthians 7:19 NLT}

Based on numerous other passages, such as Romans 13:8-10, I have no doubt that the "commandments" Paul is referring to in that last passage are the 10 commandments... But once again, it's God's love in my heart that enables me to keep them.

God Bless

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. LK 24

What do you do with this text? The NLT leaves out the last 2 words of the verse found in the KJV. That changes the meaning and theology of the text drastically.

I checked and the last 2 words peri emou are in the Greek text.

 

[from scratch]

But Jesus says you should (and I should):

"If you love me, keep my commandments." {John 14:15}

I believe the question in the New Testament was never, "Do we need to keep the 10 commandments," But "How can we keep them," through our own strength, or through the power and love of God in our hearts.

I personally think you're speaking in code words. You intend your quoted verse to mean the Ten Commandments. That means Jesus issued the Ten Commandments to Israel. The Bible won't support this idea.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15

John tells us Jesus didn't require not teach the law in John 1 -

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The Ten Commandments are the law.

 

[Cribstyl]

Hi Cribstyl,
I'm not quite sure where we agree with each other, and where we don't.
I definitely agree with you when you say, "It's not saying, if you keep the 10 or 613 commandments you're showing that you love your neighbor." I also agree with you, and Paul, that we're made right with God by faith, not by keeping the law.
Let me share 2 more verses to show you what I believe (and what I believe the Bible teaches):

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them." {Matthew 5:17 NIV}

"It makes no difference whether or not a man is circumcised. The important thing is to keep God's commandments." {1 Corinthians 7:19 NLT}

Based on numerous other passages, such as Romans 13:8-10, I have no doubt that the "commandments" Paul is referring to in that last passage are the 10 commandments... But once again, it's God's love in my heart that enables me to keep them.

God Bless

Honest??? Rather than you addressing the understanding of the previous scriptures we were discussing, you double down with more debatable scriptures that appears only to promote the ten commandments as God's only law.

In Matt 5:17 Jesus is saying "I have not come to get rid of what's written in the Old Testament. Heaven and earth would end, if 1 word fails from the law and all the prophets writings.
What you fail to understand Al is: If change was written in the law and the prophets, the prophecies must to come to pass. Rom 3:21
¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom3:21 points out that the law(Gen-Deut) and the prophets (Joshua-Malachi) bore witness of a time when God's righteousness would be without the law.

These scripture you ignor Rom3:21 and 3:28 contradicts your resolve.

 

[VictorC]

I never saw anything about burnt offerings in the Ten Commandments!

If this is all you can see, then of course there's nothing in the Ten Commandments where it was given to anyone outside those God delivered from Egyptian bondage and their posterity.

Of course Christians would have taken note of the need to deny God's redemption, and revert to the old covenant from Mount Sinai. Only a non-Christian would have missed your emphasis on being accounted among the unredeemed children of Israel, and not as one of God's adopted purchased possessions.

 

[from scratch]

I'll try.
Paul in that verse says, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

So my first answer to your question is that to "establish" the law must be pretty much the opposite--"on the contrary"-- of "nullifying" the Law.

nullify: To annul; or make void (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)
establish: To ratify what has been previously set or made. "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31 (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)

If you don't mind: Tell me, what do you think Paul means when he says, "we establish the Law?"

God Bless

P.S.--I agree with you where you said that the fact that we don't commit murder doesn't prove that we're law-keepers. I could take the worst sinner in the world and put him in solitary confinement and he wouldn't kill anyone, or steal from anyone. etc., etc., but that certainly wouldn't prove that he had God's law written on his heart. That's the lesson Jesus was trying to teach the rich young ruler.

Your intention is keeping the law is required of the Christian IMO.

What then do the following verses mean -

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom 6

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7

Is Paul mad (insane) and arguing against himself?

If your meaning of 3:31 stands, Gal 5:4 can't be true. Neither can Acts 16:30-31, John 3:3 or Rom 10:9-10.

 

[from scratch]

Honest??? Rather than you addressing the understanding of the previous scriptures we were discussing, you double down with more debatable scriptures that appears only to promote the ten commandments as God's only law.

In Matt 5:17 Jesus is saying I have not come to get rid of what's written in the Old Testament. Heaven and earth would and if 1 word from fails.
What you fail to understand Al is: If change was written in the law and the prophets, it also have to come to pass. Rom 3:21
¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom3:21 points out that the law and the prophets bore witness of a time when God's righteousness would be without the law.

These scripture you ignor Rom3:21 and 3:28 contradicts your resolve.

and

 

[VictorC]

I'll try.
Paul in that verse says, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

So my first answer to your question is that to "establish" the law must be pretty much the opposite--"on the contrary"-- of "nullifying" the Law.

nullify: To annul; or make void (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)
establish: To ratify what has been previously set or made. "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31 (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)

If you don't mind: Tell me, what do you think Paul means when he says, "we establish the Law?"

Last May 16th I posted on how Romans 3:31 is one of the most abused verses of Scripture when it is taken out of context. I will re-post my comments here.

We're subjected to Adventists forcing doctrines into Scripture, when sola Scriptura damages the agenda 'print to fit' which doesn't actually fit.

Just one example: How many times have we been subjected to the sound-bite "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." from Romans 3:31?
More times than I can count.

Review the context, and we see this verse sandwiched in between "the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (v.3:21) and "Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." (v.4:23-25). In the midst of this passage is found "we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (v.3:28).

Upholding the Law doesn't make a lot of sense in this narrative - not when the assumption is made that v.3:31 is arguing for a continuance of the Mosaic covenant. And, that's what it is - an assumption.

Just as Romans 7:6 identifies the Law we have been delivered from by a quote from the Ten Commandments in the following verse, Romans 3:31 affirms the reliability of the Law's testimony when it quotes from Genesis 15:6 three verses later: For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

The inspired author argues for the reliability of the Law that testifies about righteousness by faith, and not by feigned compliance of the Mosaic covenant Law - and the Law we uphold comes 430 years before the Ten Commandments existed!

 

[Cribstyl]

Last May 16th I posted on how Romans 3:31 is one of the most abused verses of Scripture when it is taken out of context. I will re-post my comments here.

We're subjected to Adventists forcing doctrines into Scripture, when sola Scriptura damages the agenda 'print to fit' which doesn't actually fit.

Just one example: How many times have we been subjected to the sound-bite "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." from Romans 3:31?
More times than I can count.

Review the context, and we see this verse sandwiched in between "the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (v.3:21) and "Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." (v.4:23-25). In the midst of this passage is found "we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (v.3:28).

Upholding the Law doesn't make a lot of sense in this narrative - not when the assumption is made that v.3:31 is arguing for a continuance of the Mosaic covenant. And, that's what it is - an assumption.

Just as Romans 7:6 identifies the Law we have been delivered from by a quote from the Ten Commandments in the following verse, Romans 3:31 affirms the reliability of the Law's testimony when it quotes from Genesis 15:6 three verses later: For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

The inspired author argues for the reliability of the Law that testifies about righteousness by faith, and not by feigned compliance of the Mosaic covenant Law - and the Law we uphold comes 430 years before the Ten Commandments existed!

Well said.

 

[Honest Al]

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. LK 24

What do you do with this text? The NLT leaves out the last 2 words of the verse found in the KJV. That changes the meaning and theology of the text drastically.

I checked and the last 2 words peri emou are in the Greek text.

Hi again,
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what this post has to do with our discussion.

 

[from scratch]

Hi again,
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what this post has to do with our discussion.

Really? I'm not surprise you'd say that. I'll say it a new novel dismissal of the Bible, though.

 

[Honest Al]

Honest??? Rather than you addressing the understanding of the previous scriptures we were discussing, you double down with more debatable scriptures that appears only to promote the ten commandments as God's only law.

Hi again,
When you first posted to me, here's part of what I answered back:

"I'm not quite sure where we agree with each other, and where we don't.
I definitely agree with you when you say, "It's not saying, if you keep the 10 or 613 commandments you're showing that you love your neighbor." I also agree with you, and Paul, that we're made right with God by faith, not by keeping the law."

I'm sorry you feel I wasn't honest, but I did my best.

 

[Honest Al]

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. LK 24

What do you do with this text? The NLT leaves out the last 2 words of the verse found in the KJV. That changes the meaning and theology of the text drastically.

I checked and the last 2 words peri emou are in the Greek text.

Hi again Scratch
Here's how my NLT renders that verse (1997 edition) (and from what I've found on the internet it's also how all of the other NLT editions translate it)

"Then he said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled."

Isn't "about me" the same as "concerning me?"
But if you'd like, I won't use the NLT anymore when responding to you.

 

[from scratch]

Hi again Scratch
Here's how my NLT renders that verse (1997 edition) (and from what I've found on the internet it's also how all of the other NLT editions translate it)

"Then he said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled."

Isn't "about me" the same as "concerning me?"
But if you'd like, I won't use the NLT anymore when responding to you.

OK, are all things concerning Jesus fulfilled at that point?

 

[Honest Al]

I don't intend to persist with this, but I do feel I should make this next point:

Twice Jesus was asked that most important of all questions: "What must I do to inherit eternal life." Here are His 2 answers:

"He answered: What is written in the Law?" {Luke 10:25, 26}

"You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother." {Luke 18:20}

And yes, I realize that in both cases there was more to Christ's answer than met the eye. But that doesn't change the fact that those were His 2 answers.

 

[from scratch]

I'll try.
Paul in that verse says, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

So my first answer to your question is that to "establish" the law must be pretty much the opposite--"on the contrary"-- of "nullifying" the Law.

nullify: To annul; or make void (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)
establish: To ratify what has been previously set or made. "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31 (Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary)

If you don't mind: Tell me, what do you think Paul means when he says, "we establish the Law?"

God Bless

P.S.--I agree with you where you said that the fact that we don't commit murder doesn't prove that we're law-keepers. I could take the worst sinner in the world and put him in solitary confinement and he wouldn't kill anyone, or steal from anyone. etc., etc., but that certainly wouldn't prove that he had God's law written on his heart. That's the lesson Jesus was trying to teach the rich young ruler.

Why do you want to establish the law? I think your pro law for salvation.

Would you care to be honest and admit that you keep the law meaning the Sabbath? Forgive me for being suspicious.

 

[from scratch]

I don't intend to persist with this, but I do feel I should make this next point:

Twice Jesus was asked that most important of all questions: "What must I do to inherit eternal life." Here are His 2 answers:

"He answered: What is written in the Law?" {Luke 10:25, 26}

"You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother." {Luke 18:20}

And yes, I realize that in both cases there was more to Christ's answer than met the eye. But that doesn't change the fact that those were His 2 answers.

Yes and Jesus was giving a fool his desired answer in direct conflict with Ps 14:3. This also conflicts even with other words of Jesus such as found in John 10. Such would also mean the death of Jesus on the cross isn't necessary for our salvation.