Is the Sabbath everywhere on the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden?

[Bob S]

Hi G, Peter said Paul was hard to understand. That was Peter's opinion. Why would God put it to Paul to make it hard for us to understand? 2Cor 3 is not, in the least hard to understand. That must be going around in SDA circles because you are not the first SDA to use that as an excuse for not trying to comprehend that Paul actually wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 that the 10 commandments have been done away KJV and our guide is the Holy Spirit. I believe you are parroting others and not thinking what the 10 commandments said. There is absolutely nothing about love in those 10. They are about duty. Thou shalt not is not exclaiming love now is it. The law of Love covers all the ways we can sin against our fellow man. The 10 have only nine ways. Read Gal5 and then tell me that the 10 the definition of God's love to us. That is just another cliche.

Recognizing that Jesus made some commandments more demanding does not convince you because you have not understood what the ten commandments are, they are the definition of love for God and neighbor as expressed by the expert in the law and confirmed by Jesus.

You had better believe I don't believe the 10 are the definition of love for God. They may have been a good start, but there are so many ways we can harm our fellow man, the 10 are really minuscule in comparison. The greatest command ever given to man is not found in the 10. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you realized that the old covenant ended at Calvary. When the covenant ended so did the requirements, all of the requirements. You won't agree, but like other challenges to your belief system you will make excuses and will not address the issue as to why you don't believe what scripture is telling us. 2Cor3:6-11 is a great example. I have found that when some read "God's commands" they automatically add a ten in the words. There is about 20 places in the New Testament that either says God's commands or the commandments of God. Not one of them have ten associated with them.

I don't define love; God has defined it for me with the ten commandments.

You couldn't possibly really mean that. Think of the many ways we can mess up our relationship with our fellow man and God. The 10 are like a candle, it give light, but when the sun shines the candlelight becomes obscure.

 

[Dkh587]

Brother, you didn't ask me, but this is a question that I can answer with confidence. The new covenant is Jesus replacing the sacrifice of so many animals for the forgiveness of sin. It is not the only covenant God has made with us and also does not replace all previous covenants. It is not new in the sense that it was known from the beginning, because Adam and Eve were told of the coming of Jesus that would replace the forgiveness of sin by its shadow of the sacrifice of a lamb representing Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I’m just trying to find where this new covenant of lawlessness that @Bob S keeps talking about was foretold by God or the Prophets

 

[Bob S]

I’m just trying to find where this new covenant of lawlessness that @Bob S keeps talking about was foretold by God or the Prophets

Hi Dkh, you might as well stop looking. For one thing, I have never in the least way tried to insinuate that the new covenant is a lawless covenant. That is a misnomer and you had no basis in stating such. I have always stated that the laws dealing with morality are forever no matter what covenant they came from. Jesus laid down the laws of the new covenant and the greatest law ever given by God is found in Jn 15. Loving others as Jesus loves us covers avery aspect of morality. A person would have to be blind to scripture not to be able to see this. It appears that you are so engrossed in trying to promote the ritual Sabbath of a covenant that has been replaced with a covenant that has better promises and is made for all mankind. The old one was given by God to the Israelites only and you are not seeing what the new covenant is all about.

 

[Dkh587]

Hi Dkh, you might as well stop looking. For one thing, I have never in the least way tried to insinuate that the new covenant is a lawless covenant. That is a misnomer and you had no basis in stating such. I have always stated that the laws dealing with morality are forever no matter what covenant they came from. Jesus laid down the laws of the new covenant and the greatest law ever given by God is found in Jn 15. Loving others as Jesus loves us covers avery aspect of morality. A person would have to be blind to scripture not to be able to see this. It appears that you are so engrossed in trying to promote the ritual Sabbath of a covenant that has been replaced with a covenant that has better promises and is made for all mankind. The old one was given by God to the Israelites only and you are not seeing what the new covenant is all about.

Since you can’t show where a lawless new covenant was foretold or taught, will you please stop promoting whatever lawless new covenant with mankind you say you are a part of, and stop pretending it is the new covenant with Israel that Jeremiah foretold of?

 

[guevaraj]

Hi G, Peter said Paul was hard to understand. That was Peter's opinion.

Brother, it is God’s forewarning about the misuse of Paul’s harder to understand words to defend the error of the lawless, but let’s listen to what Paul says in his own words, not everything Paul says is difficult to understand:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:12-13 NIV)​

Even those who do not have the law but sin according to the law will perish not having the law and those who obey the law are declared righteous even if they do not have the law. Because the important thing is not to listen to the law, but to obey the law is what will declare you righteous. And if that was not clear enough, here is another clear statement from Paul:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

Paul clarifies that he is not removing the law, on the contrary he expects us to obey it even more now that we have the better promises of Jesus, who lives forever to finish what He begins in us.

Why would God put it to Paul to make it hard for us to understand? 2Cor 3 is not, in the least hard to understand.

Some of Paul’s words are hard to understand because obviously Paul is not contradicting himself when he tells us the law is good and that he is not eliminating the law, but expects us to fulfill it even more under the superior intercession of Jesus, who lives forever to finish what He started in us. You asked why these harder words to understand were allowed? God takes responsibility for allowing admonition like Paul’s harder words to understand to those who refused to love the truth.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 NIV)​

You must ask yourself; Do you love the truth or are you just looking for an excuse to put aside the Sabbath because it makes it difficult to get a job? If an excuse is all you want, God has provided a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

That must be going around in SDA circles because you are not the first SDA to use that as an excuse for not trying to comprehend that Paul actually wrote in 2Cor3:6-11 that the 10 commandments have been done away KJV and our guide is the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit says nothing of His own, He shares with us what He hears from Jesus. Unless you can convince yourself that the ten commandments did not come from God, they will remain until the earth is made new and all is accomplished, as Jesus told us in the scriptures. If the spirit you listen to contradicts the words of Jesus, it is not the Holy Spirit that you’re listening to. The only guaranteed word from God are the scriptures and not just any spirit you listen to. Remember that we should not believe all spirits, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.

I believe you are parroting others and not thinking what the 10 commandments said. There is absolutely nothing about love in those 10. They are about duty. Thou shalt not is not exclaiming love now is it. The law of Love covers all the ways we can sin against our fellow man. The 10 have only nine ways. Read Gal5 and then tell me that the 10 the definition of God's love to us. That is just another cliche.

Keep in mind that I am not speculating like you, it is in the word of God, Jesus asked the expert in the law how he read it and the expert summed up the law as love for God and neighbor and Jesus confirmed his summery of the law. Therefore, the law is the definition of love for God and neighbor stated by Jesus words and not mine. In contrast to my finding in the word of God, you speculate that the law is not love but duty without any biblical evidence to make your assumption anything other than speculation on your part contrary to the biblical evidence. If we than compare both views, mine is closer to the bible than yours, mine having biblical evidence to state that the law is love when you have no biblical evidence that it is something other than love.

You had better believe I don't believe the 10 are the definition of love for God. They may have been a good start, but there are so many ways we can harm or fellow man, the 10 are really minuscule in comparison. The greatest command ever given to man is not found in the 10. We wouldn't be having this discussion if you realized that the old covenant ended at Calvary.

You are treating the new covenant as a replacement for all previous covenants when it only replaced the forgiveness of sins, a change expected since the beginning, that the sacrificial lamb represented Jesus' future death for our sins. It was new to Jews who were used to the old, but it was not new to God who had it from the beginning with the death of a lamb that represented the future death of Jesus. You forget other covenants such as the rainbow covenant, when God promises not to destroy humanity again by a flood. God has made many covenants and not just one to be replaced by something new when He tells us the end from the beginning and does not change being the same yesterday and today and forever.

When the covenant ended so did the requirements, all of the requirements. You won't agree, but like other challenges to your belief system you will make excuses and will not address the issue as to why you don't believe what scripture is telling us. 2Cor3:6-11 is a great example.

I am not the one who does not listen to the scriptures, they tell us to be attentive to this miss use of Paul’s more difficult words to understand. We have been forewarned by God, Paul himself speaks clearly of the fact that he is not eliminating the law, but affirms that it is good because it reveals sin in us. I have heard a different excuse from other Christians who understand that the law is good and then claim that Jesus obeyed it for them so that they are free from obeying it. What a distortion of scripture, when God’s plan of forgiveness is to bring us back to the fulfillment of the requirements of the law through the growth allowed by the cycle of forgiveness that ultimately leads us to complete fulfillment as we seek to do better once more after forgiveness.

I have found that when some read "God's commands" they automatically add a ten in the words. There is about 20 places in the New Testament that either says God's commands or the commandments of God. Not one of them have ten associated with them.

The only commandments written in stone by the hand of God are the ten commandments, they stand out above the rest in importance by coming directly from God without an intermediary. The other commandments come to us through the prophets and are an extension of these, but the commandments of God in the ten commandments come directly from the finger of God, written in stone.

You couldn't possibly really mean that. Think of the many ways we can mess up our relationship with our fellow man and God. The 10 are like a candle, it give light, but when the sun shines the candlelight becomes obscure.

They do not cover everything that can be said about loving God and neighbor, they are the least that God demands. The Holy Spirit can impress upon our minds to do something specific for someone at a critical moment. After the great disappointment of 1844, having sold everything and given all away waiting for Jesus, one devoted family did not have any money to eat and a letter came with money from someone moved by the Holy Spirit in time for them to eat. United in the hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Brother, it is God’s forewarning about the misuse of Paul’s harder to understand words to defend the error of the lawless, but let’s listen to what Paul says in his own words, not everything Paul says is difficult to understand:

Not every thought or idea found in scripture is God-inspired. I contend Peter found it difficult and openly wrote what he thought. We certainly do not cull the writings of Paul because someone has indicated they are hard to comprehend. Since Peter didn't indicate his thoughts on the matter came from the Holy Spirit neither of us can prove our points.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:12-13 NIV)​

Even those who do not have the law but sin according to the law will perish not having the law

Maybe you and Peter are right. You sure have a hard time understanding what you read. 12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law.
Does that even come close to: "Even those who do not have the law but sin according to the law will perish not having the law" Care to try again?

and those who obey the law are declared righteous even if they do not have the law.

And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

Because the important thing is not to listen to the law, but to obey the law is what will declare you righteous.

Since Gal 3:19 and Eph 2:15 explicitly tells us that Jesus was the end to the Sinai covenant with its 613 laws we can, with confidence, reason that it is the Royal Law of Love Paul is referring. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. The Sinai covenant with its 613 laws purpose was achieved at Calvary. If that is not true then Israelites are still under all of the laws of the Sinai covenant. They better find some Levi priests and get busy building the temple for the sacrifices they will be bringing. And then all the feast days, new moons and all the restrictions. If you believe you are grafted into Israel then this would apply to you too.


And if that was not clear enough, here is another clear statement from Paul:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
JN15:
10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! 12 This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you. 13 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. Verse 31 is not tellng us we are under the 613 laws as he stated earlier in chapter 2. God gave Israel those laws and we are not to cull them in any way. The verse does not tell us we are under them. The following is a much better version than the KJV: 29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. Paul here is speaking to the converted Jews.​

Paul clarifies that he is not removing the law, on the contrary he expects us to obey it even more now that we have the better promises of Jesus, who lives forever to finish what He begins in us.

Paul's theme is faith. We are saved because of our faith in Jesus, not keeping 613 laws. The law that Jesus gave us is the Royal Law of Love. If we believe and keep His command to love we know we are of the truth. 1Jn3:19-24

Some of Paul’s words are hard to understand because obviously Paul is not contradicting himself when he tells us the law is good and that he is not eliminating the law,

Paul couldn't eliminate anything. Jesus fulfilled the law and nailed to the Cross when He passed the new covenant on which He ratified with His own blood.

but expects us to fulfill it even more under the superior intercession of Jesus, who lives forever to finish what He started in us. You asked why these harder words to understand were allowed? God takes responsibility for allowing admonition like Paul’s harder words to understand to those who refused to love the truth.

Jesus fulfilled the law for the Israelites (Jews). Romans 3: 27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 NIV)

I know you think you are sending me a message by posting that bit of scripture. Even though I do not agree with your belief system I would never post that in referrence to my beliefs. I have proved without a doubt that we are not under the old covenant Sabbath laws. I used plain, in context, scripture to prove we are not.

When taught the beliefs you now espouse I was given a mark you Bible study. We marked all the texts that seemed to prove what we were to believe as SDAs. We called them "proof texts". Little did I know then that what was really happening was that we were really pulling those proof texts out of context. I notice you are doing the same thing. Read the whole chapter of Rom 3 and see if you don't get a better understanding of the last verse.​

You must ask yourself; Do you love the truth or are you just looking for an excuse to put aside the Sabbath because it makes it difficult to get a job?

I happen to be retired and I had training that was always in need. I also had my own business. When I worked was not a problem for me, but I did have empathy for those who did have a problem. And for what I ask? There is no such thing as a Christian Sabbath. Gentiles were never asked to observe a day by God, so when and why do you believe we become subject to the old covenant for Israel only Sabbath when we gain faith in Christ? Oh you say, it is written on our hearts. Well, I have been an observant person and I don't see a bunch of people clamoring over each other trying to get through the doors of a Sabbath-keeping church. What I do see is that Churches and conferences spending millions and millions trying to convince others to join their Sabbath-keeping church. Most of the listeners and attendees are not impressed, but you snag a few. Out of that few, there are some that soon walk out the back door. Now tell me the Sabbath law is implanted in our hearts. I certainly was never impressed to join by the Holy Spirit. It took a whole bunch of persuading and because I was not well-grounded in the truth I finally joined.

If an excuse is all you want, God has provided a powerful delusion so that you will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Now you are getting too close to being personal. You have, in your own words, really condemned me to hell because I don't follow the piper. I know that is what you have been taught. I had the same delusion, so I will take it with a grain of salt.

The scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit says nothing of His own, He shares with us what He hears from Jesus.

Could you please give me that scripture. I thought the Holy Spirit is God.

Unless you can convince yourself that the ten commandments did not come from God, they will remain until the earth is made new and all is accomplished,

Do you really believe that??? Jesus accomplished all at the Cross. Paul wrote that the 10 were the ministry of death and they faded and are done away. Jesus is the end of the Sinai covenant.

as Jesus told us in the scriptures.

He had yet to die on the Cross where He ratified the new and better covenant with better promises.

If the spirit you listen to contradicts the words of Jesus, it is not the Holy Spirit that you’re listening to. The only guaranteed word from God are the scriptures and not just any spirit you listen to. Remember that we should not believe all spirits, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.

I interpret that to mean if I do not kowtow to the beliefs of the SDA church .........

Keep in mind that I am not speculating like you, it is in the word of God, Jesus asked the expert in the law how he read it and the expert summed up the law as love for God and neighbor and Jesus confirmed his summery of the law. Therefore, the law is the definition of love for God and neighbor stated by Jesus words and not mine. In contrast to my finding in the word of God, you speculate that the law is not love but duty without any biblical evidence to make your assumption anything other than speculation on your part contrary to the biblical evidence. If we than compare both views, mine is closer to the bible than yours, mine having biblical evidence to state that the law is love when you have no biblical evidence that it is something other than love.

All you have to do is read the 10 without preconceived notions and you will see that the 10 are not about love. They are all about duty. It was the Israelite's duty to not steal, honor their parents etc.
The greatest commandment to love one another isn't mentioned in the 10. You wrote: Therefore, the law is the definition of love for God and neighbor stated by Jesus words and not mine. Jesus words are:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Jesus here is quoting the book of the law not the 10 commandments. Those verses are found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Believe and love is what Jesus is asking of us. 1Jn3:19-24 If we do these things we have kept His commandments and are doing what is right.

You are treating the new covenant as a replacement for all previous covenants when it only replaced the forgiveness of sins,

If I were you I would bone up on what the new covenant is all about. I have tried my best, but because of your preconceived ideas you will not even address what the new covenant means. You are just mimicking others of your belief system.

You forget other covenants such as the rainbow covenant,

I have??? When did I address that covenant?

when God promises not to destroy humanity again by a flood. God has made many covenants and not just one to be replaced by something new when He tells us the end from the beginning and does not change being the same yesterday and today and forever.

He doesn't. All of the changes were programmed before the foundation of the Earth.

The only commandments written in stone by the hand of God are the ten commandments, they stand out above the rest in importance by coming directly from God without an intermediary.

They stood out for Israel not any other nation. They were the words of the covenant and when the covenant was broken the words ended. I don't care whose finger wrote the 10. I am sure the Israelites were impressed. Now they have faded and are done away, replaced with the Holy Spirit. 2Cor3:6-11 KJV

The other commandments come to us through the prophets and are an extension of these, but the commandments of God in the ten commandments come directly from the finger of God, written in stone.

Again, you need to study where the other commands came from instead of writing by the seat of your pants my friend. That is pure nonsense. God dictated the remainder of the law directly to Moses who then wrote all of it down in the book of the law along with the 10 commandments.

They do not cover everything that can be said about loving God and neighbor, they are the least that God demands.

Oh for goodness sake, do you really mean that?
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: Gal5

The Holy Spirit can impress upon our minds to do something specific for someone at a critical moment.

Yes He can. How about everyday life?

After the great disappointment of 1844, having sold everything and given all away waiting for Jesus, one devoted family did not have any money to eat and a letter came with money from someone moved by the Holy Spirit in time for them to eat. United in the hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

After that fluke, many were instituted because they lost their minds. Some even froze to death. Some went on to invent the SDA church and others went back to their previous churches which later became known as Babylon because they didn't kowtow to the teachings of the SDAs

The great disappointment came about because those who espoused Miller put their complete trust in him and culled what the Bible teaches that we do not know when Jesus will return. Even though they were shown not to set dates they didn't heed the truth.
Could you be listening to the ones who started the SDA church like those who espoused Miller?

 

[DamianWarS]

The Bible shows me that In Israel, the Sabbath is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Genesis 1:3-5 shows that the first day is from light to light or from morning to morning: Israel remembers to keep the seventh-day Sabbath established in Eden holy by remembering the Sabbath in the time zone of Eden from evening to evening, ten hours before its local seventh day of the week from morning to morning in obedience to God's instructions. This shift of ten hours point to the site of Eden from Israel and fall on the International Date Line. The International Date Line comes from all of us from the beginning: when God taught the human race to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy; before humanity spread throughout the world. This tradition of counting days established the International Date Line without us appreciating its significance in our history until these last days. I have written a book on the subject, "Proof of God in the International Date Line: Site of our Origin", available on all major platforms. I welcome everyone to challenge my point of view. I am willing to provide a free PDF copy to influential people who can promote this book through reviews or other means. Sincerely, Jorge

my take is the building toward the light is to reinforce the light God created as a salvation metaphor. the order is death then resurrection so we first need to die before salvation comes or first darkness than light breaks the darkness because light overpowers darkness not the other way around.

it is clear that darkness was before the light as some sort of primordial darkness. So in darkness, the first day starts and we wait for God to send his light so that darkness is vanquished. If we flip it, the day begins with light but then ends in a season of darkness. This order doesn't proclaim the message of God well as we do not look to darkness overcoming light.

so darkness first, then light because God sent his light into the darkness to overcome it. we are reminded of this each day until one day there will be no more darkness.

 

[guevaraj]

my take is the building toward the light is to reinforce the light God created as a salvation metaphor. the order is death then resurrection so we first need to die before salvation comes or first darkness then light because light overpowers darkness not the other way around. it is clear that darkness was before the light as some sort of primordial darkness. So in darkness, the first day starts and we wait for God is to speak his light so that darkness is vanquished. If we flip it, the day begins with light but then ends in a season of darkness. This order doesn't proclaim the message of God well as we do not see the darkness overcoming the light. so darkness first, then light because God sent his light into the darkness to overcome it. we are reminded of this each day until one day there will be no more darkness.

Brother, you've explained why we haven't understood this before. We now have more evidence that exposes the invented tradition of Sunday that the bishops of Rome have pushed to replace the Sabbath by changing the ten commandments written by the finger of God unlike the rest of the scriptures that come from the prophets. Unfortunately, all the founders of Protestant churches died before correcting this one of many invented traditions in contradiction with the word of God. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[DamianWarS]

Brother, you've explained why we haven't understood this before. We now have more evidence that exposes the invented tradition of Sunday that the bishops of Rome have pushed to replace the Sabbath by changing the ten commandments written by the finger of God unlike the rest of the scriptures that come from the prophets. Unfortunately, all the founders of Protestant churches died before correcting this one of many invented traditions in contradiction with the word of God. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

right... the sabbath is about rest. the demand of the law never ends and must be satisfied each week, over and over (like the sacrificial law), the logic of the law points to our beating hearts and are very breath as work. We can't satisfy this demand and I would argue the moment our hearts beat we break the sabbath.

Christ satisfied this demand by resting in the grave over the sabbath as he was put in the grave before sunset and rose in the morning of the next day and now the demand of the sabbath is met through Christ (because he did it far better than we can) and this is just like the sacrifice, as Christ is our sacrifice not the rituals of spilling animal blood... never enough and always needing more. He tells us to come to him and he will give us rest. This is extremely meaningful because Jesus is God, so this means he was there when the law was etched into stone and he was there on the 7th day in this rest. So it is his rest to give because he has the credentials and he offers it freely saying simply to come to him.

It is good to give glory to God through a day but if we want the rest of God then we must look to Christ, not a day.

 

[guevaraj]

We can't satisfy this demand

Brother, the Jews showed that they can satisfy the Sabbath commandment and that means we can too. A man came to Jesus and asked Him what he must "do to get eternal life". Jesus mentioned the last six commandments because the Jews were strong in loving God, doing more than necessary to fulfill the first four commandments, but they were weak in loving their neighbor in the last six commandments. This is different from Christians who are the opposite, they are stronger loving their neighbor than loving God with the first four commandments, especially the fourth about remembering the Sabbath, to keep it holy.

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” ... If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:16-21 NIV)​

The man recognized the ten commandments that all Jews value and Jesus confirmed His understanding that these ten are only the minimum. More is expected bellow than the ten commandments.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 NIV)​

Remember that Jesus said that until the earth is made new and all is accomplished, neither a period nor a comma will change from the law that must be obeyed as a minimum requirement to obtain eternal life as Jesus said above to the man who is not willing to follow Jesus because he was rich and did not want to share his wealth with the poor, treating neighbor as himself. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Give me a good reason to observe the old covenant Sabbath law after reading the following.

2Cor3:
6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses’ face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, 8 how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! 10 Indeed, what once had glory has lost its glory because of the greater glory; 11 for if what was set aside came through glory, much more has the permanent come in glory!

What is the permanent Glory? Paul writes that the permanent Glory is the ministry of the Spirit. The Spirit is a gift of Jesus to us. Israel's guide was the 10 commandments, Christian's guide is the Holy Spirit. It doesn't get any planer than that. Israel was to live under the laws of the Sinai covenant, Christians are to live under the Royal Law of Love. Some try to tell us we are lawless because we don't subscribe to the 10. Was Abraham, Noah, or Moses' father-in-law Jethro lawless? None of them had the 10 commandments yet all were chosen by God to be part of all the inspired men of faith. What is there about when a gentile accepts Christ as his personal Savior he then has to conform to the old covenant laws? Where in Scripture does it tell us to keep the ritual laws of the old covenant? Whatever happened to Acts 15, someone remove it from your Bible?

 

[Bob S]

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 NIV)​

When you quote that verse I would like to know what commands you think John was referring? It certianly doesn't indicate being the 10 commandments. Since it doesn't specify wouldn't you think it would mean all the commands God has given to man since the beginning?​

Remember that Jesus said that until the earth is made new

How about sticking to what scripture really says which has to be a metaphor.

and all is accomplished, neither a period nor a comma will change from the law that must be obeyed as a minimum requirement to obtain eternal life

You sure do like to take privilege with what is really written in Matt5:16-17 don't you. In fact, what you wrote is a blatant misnomer. Jesus was referring to the laws of the covenant the Jews were under, all the laws. Feast laws, new moon laws and all the other ritual laws of that covenant. Please don't think for an instance that we are subject to all those laws of the old covenant because Jesus did fulfill the law. He certainly did bring it to an end, but you won't give Him the credit for doing so, so you keep on trying to keep laws that He died to rescue Jews from.

as Jesus said above to the man who is not willing to follow Jesus because he was rich and did not want to share his wealth with the poor, treating neighbor as himself. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

Israel's guide was the 10 commandments, Christian's guide is the Holy Spirit.

Brother, don't look for an excuse to abuse Paul's words, look for the truth in all the Scriptures. The problem you have is that you assume one or the other and cannot reconcile the two together, you believe that the law and the Spirit are enemies when they are friends, the ministry of the Spirit is not to eliminate the law, the ministry of the Spirit is to accomplish the law in us through a cycle of forgiveness that reaches perfection. Paul, being a Jew, talked about how the Jews saw the law. He was moving misplaced value on the law by the Jews to their proper place, with the rest of God's plan of salvation more accomplished after Jesus than before Jesus. The Jews had given too much value to the law, Paul is correcting this Jewish point of view, but Paul himself tells us that the law is good and that he is not eliminating the law, he trusts that we will fulfill it even more now that we have Jesus, who lives forever to complete in us what He started, better than the old system where the High Priest died and was continually replaced and, therefore, unable to complete what he begins because he, unlike Jesus, does not live forever to achieve it. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[DamianWarS]

Brother, the Jews showed that they can satisfy the Sabbath commandment and that means we can too. A man came to Jesus and asked Him what he must "do to get eternal life". Jesus mentioned the last six commandments because the Jews were strong in loving God, doing more than necessary to fulfill the first four commandments, but they were weak in loving their neighbor in the last six commandments. This is different from Christians who are the opposite, they are stronger loving their neighbor than loving God with the first four commandments, especially the fourth about remembering the Sabbath, to keep it holy.

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” ... If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:16-21 NIV)​

The man recognized the ten commandments that all Jews value and Jesus confirmed His understanding that these ten are only the minimum. More is expected bellow than the ten commandments.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 NIV)​

Remember that Jesus said that until the earth is made new and all is accomplished, neither a period nor a comma will change from the law that must be obeyed as a minimum requirement to obtain eternal life as Jesus said above to the man who is not willing to follow Jesus because he was rich and did not want to share his wealth with the poor, treating neighbor as himself. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

none of this replaces the rest Christ gives us. You do accept Christ gives us rest, don't you? how does this rest differ from the rest obtain through the sabbath? are not both the rest of God? what do you think the difference is between a fulfilled law and an abolished law? Christ did the former but not the latter but it seems to me both have a similar product.

 

[Bob S]

Brother, don't look for an excuse to abuse Paul's words, look for the truth in all the Scriptures.

I don't know where to start. Why is it you try to put the blame on me. Why would you even write that I have abused the writings of Paul or that I have no other scripture to back up Paul when he states that the 10 commandments have been done away. KJV I use the King James Version because it seems to be the standard for SDAs. Other versions say that the 10 were transient, That means temporary. I have backed up 2Cor3 with many verses, yet you will not give them room in your mind because of the preconceived belief that you must observe the Sabbath that was given by God to one nation, that being Israel. Jesus said in Matt 5:16 that He came to fulfill the law. He didn't tell us it was the ceremonial law or the Noahide law or the law give to Abraham. He lived under the laws of the Sinai covenant as did all of the descendants of Israel. It was that law that he came to fulfill. The dictionary term for fulfill is to bring to an end. I ask you this question, did Jesus do what He came to do? Your answer means nothing to me because I know that Jesus fulfilled the whole law. It goes perfectly with Paul's admonition in Gal3:19 and Eph2:15 and many other verses that tell us we are not under the Law

The problem you have is that you assume one or the other and cannot reconcile the two together, you believe that the law and the Spirit are enemies when they are friends, the ministry of the Spirit is not to eliminate the law, the ministry of the Spirit is to accomplish the law in us through a cycle of forgiveness that reaches perfection. Paul, being a Jew, talked about how the Jews saw the law. He was moving misplaced value on the law by the Jews to their proper place, with the rest of God's plan of salvation more accomplished after Jesus than before Jesus. The Jews had given too much value to the law, Paul is correcting this Jewish point of view, but Paul himself tells us that the law is good and that he is not eliminating the law, he trusts that we will fulfill it even more now that we have Jesus, who lives forever to complete in us what He started, better than the old system where the High Priest died and was continually replaced and, therefore, unable to complete what he begins because he, unlike Jesus, does not live forever to achieve it. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

You have not grasped what I think, so let's not be so eager to label what I believe. Jesus has given Christians commandments, so we don't have to reach back to commands from a now-defunct old covenant.

You wrote that the ministry of the Spirit is not to eliminate the law. That is very true, but the fact remains that it is not the 10 commandment laws that the Holy Spirit is in harmony. Why would the Holy Spirit be in harmony with the ministry of death? You hold the 10 so high, but fail to realize that the greatest commandments ever were given are not part of what you hold so high.

What are you going to do with Heb7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Heb8: 13 In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

The first covenant became obsolete at Sinai where Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood. When the covenant ended so did the words of the covenant end. What were the words of the covenant? The Jews tell us they were the 613 laws given to the Children of Israel to obey. How much simpler can it get friend?

 

[Bob S]

Hi G, you have stated frequently that God does not change. I presume you mean He doesn't change His mind. I would admonish you to read the account in Exodus where the Israelites built a golden calf to be their god and Moses was with God on Mt Sinai receiving the 10 commandments. God told Moses he had better get back down there because the Israelites had rebelled. God became angry and told Moses He was going to destroy them. Moses then argued with God and convinced God that it was not in God's best interest to do such a thing. God agreed with Moses and relented. If that was not a change of mind I will eat my hat. Mimicking what others say even if it comes from the church is not always correct now, is it? God did change His mind just as He gave mankind a new covenant and made the Sinai covenant obsolete.

Jesus said in Matt 5 that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, but not until all was accomplished. Questions: Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the prophets like He said he was going to do? Remember not one jot or one tittle would pass from the Law until all was fulfilled. Remember He said He came to fulfill the Law, not part of it. Did Jesus change His mind and only fulfill parts of the Law like you have indicated?

 

[guevaraj]

How much simpler can it get friend?

Brother, I've shown you how simple it can be, but you're looking for an excuse instead of the truth about what Paul says when you choose to ignore being forewarned about Paul's words that are hard to understand and still choose to ignore Paul's words that are simple to understand about the law.

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter 3:13-17 NIV)​

You refuse to listen to Paul’s words that are simple to understand, He is not contradicting himself. He speaks clearly when he says the law is good and that he is not eliminating the law but on the contrary, he expects us to “uphold the law”, yes, us and not Jesus. Paul expects us to “uphold the law” even more and not less after Jesus than before Jesus.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)​

Jesus’ plan saves both us and the law: yes, He came to save us, but He also came to save the law by bringing us back to obedience to it. Jesus is reconciling us to the law, the law of love for God and neighbor. You have no trouble recognizing love for neighbor in His commandments, being human yourself, however, you struggle with love for God, because He is not like us and without Him telling us how to love Him, there is no way for you to know how to love Him. Fortunately, He has told us how to love Him.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15 KJV)​

The only one you have trouble with is the Sabbath, a "covenant" which God told us is “forever”, meaning without end, ever.

The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'" (Exodus 31:16-17 NIV)​

I show my love for God by keeping the commandments He wrote with His own finger, while you say that you show love for God on your own terms, with your own interpretation of the word love, where you do not keep the commandments written by God with His own finger. The law does not condemn me, but it does condemn you, even though Jesus offers forgiveness in the daily of His heavenly ministry as our High Priest to give you another opportunity to “uphold the law”, an opportunity that I, unlike you, take advantage of as my demonstration of faith expecting Jesus soon return. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Not one place of all the verses you quoted does it tell us we are under the law. Sure all the laws of the Sinai covenant the law were good and Holy. Paul in Romans does not indicate anyplace that we are under them because they were good. They were the laws of the now-defunct Sinai covenant. God could have etched them with a toothpick. That has nothing to do with whether we are under them. Jesus ministry changed the priesthood and where there is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the law.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge my questions?

Questions: Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the prophets like He said he was going to do? Remember not one jot or one tittle would pass from the Law until all was fulfilled. Remember He said He came to fulfill the Law, not part of it. Did Jesus change His mind and only fulfill parts of the Law like you have indicated?

Did God change His mind about destroying the Israelites for building the golden calf?

 

[guevaraj]

Did Jesus fulfill the Law and the prophets like He said he was going to do?

Brother, not yet, He gained with His death the “authority” of the Father to reign until His enemies are destroyed.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20 NIV)​

This “authority” that Jesus obtained He will restore it to the Father when everything is fulfilled.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 NIV)​

We are currently under the “reign” of Jesus until everything is fulfilled and then returned to the Father. The Father will require what He required from the beginning, the fulfillment of the law, because He does not change. Are you going to disappoint Jesus, who has given you this opportunity to grow to fulfill the law through a cycle of forgiveness towards perfection?

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:2-10 NIV)​

For example, those who prepare for the Olympic Games recover when they fail and grow to reach the goal through constant practice. Then the day comes when the world is astonished of what they have achieved that breaks world records. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Bob S]

Brother, not yet, He gained with His death the “authority” of the Father to reign until His enemies are destroyed.

If that is your reconing then Jesus said not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah law, the laws of the Sinai covenant till all is fulfilled. WOW! You have obligated yourself to try to keep the weekly Sabbath and not eat unclean meat. Those are a drop in the bucket of all the laws of the old covenant. I know not all of them pertain to the common Israelite, but you have culled all that do. Why? What gives you the right to pick and choose which ones you think are keeping you on the right with God? Jesus said not one of them could be culled. You really do have a dilemma friend.

Well, Jesus did fulfill all that He came to do. He is, after all, God. God doesn't do anything halfway now, does He?

​