Is the Sabbath binding.

[sparow]

This video is of a debate that took place about 18 months back; I have just seen it and would like to comment on it.

Debate does not prove who is right but instead, who is the best debater. I believe Doug won because of Doug's finishing confidence and Jeff's finishing lack of confidence. I believe Doug was right and Jeff was wrong but I believed what I believe before the debate not because of the debate and I wonder if any of the audience, who should have been Sunday keepers, were converted. It was Herbert W Armstrong who first brought the sabbath issue to me,before that I never doubted Sunday in any way; When I looked into the matter I was easily convinced. The Sabbath issue was the only thing I was in agreement with Armstrong and the only thing I disagreed with was that the rider on the first white horse in Rev. 6:2, was Satan. Armstrong had learned from the Jehovah Witnesses how to avoid discussing disputable matters; the Sabbath being not disputable; The white horse being Satan is disputable.



Is the Sabbath binding on Christians? This is a wrong question that can only produce a wrong answer. It could be that it is right that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians but what use is being right if one then proceeds to forfeit ones salvation. One can say the Law is not binding but if it is true for that one, the it is also true that, that one does not follow Christ, only using His name but walking his own walk. Another one will volunteerily bind himself to Christ and keep the commandments.

 

[Cis.jd]

I never understood the whole "we must keep the sabbath" argument that some protestant denominations argue about.

As if the Sabbath was stated in scripture to be a Saturday, but's simply rest on the 7th day. Just by our Gregorian calendar the 7th day is calculated to be Sunday.

In in a traditional and theological sense, Jesus rose on a Sunday which is already the start of the "new" therefore we worship on Sunday following this theological belief.

 

[HARK!]

Just by our Gregorian calendar the 7th day is calculated to be Sunday

 

[Aussie Pete]

This video is of a debate that took place about 18 months back; I have just seen it and would like to comment on it.

Debate does not prove who is right but instead, who is the best debater. I believe Doug won because of Doug's finishing confidence and Jeff's finishing lack of confidence. I believe Doug was right and Jeff was wrong but I believed what I believe before the debate not because of the debate and I wonder if any of the audience, who should have been Sunday keepers, were converted. It was Herbert W Armstrong who first brought the sabbath issue to me,before that I never doubted Sunday in any way; When I looked into the matter I was easily convinced. The Sabbath issue was the only thing I was in agreement with Armstrong and the only thing I disagreed with was that the rider on the first white horse in Rev. 6:2, was Satan. Armstrong had learned from the Jehovah Witnesses how to avoid discussing disputable matters; the Sabbath being not disputable; The white horse being Satan is disputable.



Is the Sabbath binding on Christians? This is a wrong question that can only produce a wrong answer. It could be that it is right that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians but what use is being right if one then proceeds to forfeit ones salvation. One can say the Law is not binding but if it is true for that one, the it is also true that, that one does not follow Christ, only using His name but walking his own walk. Another one will volunteerily bind himself to Christ and keep the commandments.

If observing Sunday as the sabbath is a salvation issue, then heaven is a very lonely place. If keeping all the Mosaic laws is a salvation then it's even lonelier. Only Lord Jesus kept the Law perfectly. The reality is that we need a day of rest. Lord Jesus that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. It's a practical issue. If more people had a genuine day of rest, especially the hyper busy, there would be far less stress related illness. The day of rest does not have to be the day of worship. Trying to get 4 kids to church on time is not especially restful. The Apostle Paul puts it this way:

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14, 1-6)

Can we put the whole food laws and sabbath thing to rest? It's in black and white. Follow your conscience and get off everyone else's back.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This video is of a debate that took place about 18 months back; I have just seen it and would like to comment on it.

Debate does not prove who is right but instead, who is the best debater. I believe Doug won because of Doug's finishing confidence and Jeff's finishing lack of confidence. I believe Doug was right and Jeff was wrong but I believed what I believe before the debate not because of the debate and I wonder if any of the audience, who should have been Sunday keepers, were converted. It was Herbert W Armstrong who first brought the sabbath issue to me,before that I never doubted Sunday in any way; When I looked into the matter I was easily convinced. The Sabbath issue was the only thing I was in agreement with Armstrong and the only thing I disagreed with was that the rider on the first white horse in Rev. 6:2, was Satan. Armstrong had learned from the Jehovah Witnesses how to avoid discussing disputable matters; the Sabbath being not disputable; The white horse being Satan is disputable.



Is the Sabbath binding on Christians? This is a wrong question that can only produce a wrong answer. It could be that it is right that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians but what use is being right if one then proceeds to forfeit ones salvation. One can say the Law is not binding but if it is true for that one, the it is also true that, that one does not follow Christ, only using His name but walking his own walk. Another one will volunteerily bind himself to Christ and keep the commandments.

It is not binding for Christian believers. It was a part of Mosaic Law, and no one is justified before God by keeping any part of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Soyeong]

This video is of a debate that took place about 18 months back; I have just seen it and would like to comment on it.

Debate does not prove who is right but instead, who is the best debater. I believe Doug won because of Doug's finishing confidence and Jeff's finishing lack of confidence. I believe Doug was right and Jeff was wrong but I believed what I believe before the debate not because of the debate and I wonder if any of the audience, who should have been Sunday keepers, were converted. It was Herbert W Armstrong who first brought the sabbath issue to me,before that I never doubted Sunday in any way; When I looked into the matter I was easily convinced. The Sabbath issue was the only thing I was in agreement with Armstrong and the only thing I disagreed with was that the rider on the first white horse in Rev. 6:2, was Satan. Armstrong had learned from the Jehovah Witnesses how to avoid discussing disputable matters; the Sabbath being not disputable; The white horse being Satan is disputable.



Is the Sabbath binding on Christians? This is a wrong question that can only produce a wrong answer. It could be that it is right that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians but what use is being right if one then proceeds to forfeit ones salvation. One can say the Law is not binding but if it is true for that one, the it is also true that, that one does not follow Christ, only using His name but walking his own walk. Another one will volunteerily bind himself to Christ and keep the commandments.

In Isaiah 58:13, God wanted His Sabbath to be called a delight, so the issue isn't so much whether have to keep it, but that we have the delight of getting to keep it. David sad over and over throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so viewing obedience to God's law with anything less than delight is incorrect and incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Likewise, in Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying God's law, so he was on the same page as David.

However, regardless of whether we consider God's law to be a delight, and the end of the day we are still obligated to obey His law because He is sovereign. Sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), and we are not permitted to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are obligated to keep the Sabbath holy. However, even if God had never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath holy, then we would still be obligated to do so because it is holy to God and man ought not to profane what is holy to God. God's command to keep the Sabbath holy was not arbitrarily given, but rather it teaches us about who God is and what he has done in regard to being the Creator, being holy, and being the type of God who saves His people out of Egypt, and we ought to seek by faith to live in a way that testifies about who God is and what He has done. Christ lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so becoming his follower is about seeing what he taught and wanting to become part of that.

 

[Soyeong]

It is not binding for Christian believers. It was a part of Mosaic Law, and no one is justified before God by keeping any part of the Mosaic Law.

It is not as though the fact that we don't earn our justification by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God. Christ set an example of keeping Sabbath holy and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

 

[HARK!]

Is the Sabbath binding on Christians?

Exodus 31
12 YAHWEH said to Moshe, 13 Tell the people of Isra’el, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am YAHWEH, who sets you apart for me. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Isra’el forever; for in six days ADONAI made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and rested.’

Hebrews 4:11
Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be deemed to have fallen short of it

(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

(CLV) Ex 20:8
You are to remember the sabbath day to hallow it.

(CLV) Ezk 20:12
And I also gave My sabbaths to them to become a sign between Me and them, to make known that it is I, Yahweh, Who hallows them.

(CLV) Ex 31:16
Hence the sons of Israel will keep the sabbath so as to make the sabbath an eonian covenant throughout their generations.

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In Isaiah 58:13, God wanted His Sabbath to be called a delight, so the issue isn't so much whether have to keep it, but that we have the delight of getting to keep it. David sad over and over throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so viewing obedience to God's law with anything less than delight is incorrect and incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Likewise, in Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying God's law, so he was on the same page as David.

However, regardless of whether we consider God's law to be a delight, and the end of the day we are still obligated to obey His law because He is sovereign. Sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), and we are not permitted to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are obligated to keep the Sabbath holy. However, even if God had never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath holy, then we would still be obligated to do so because it is holy to God and man ought not to profane what is holy to God. God's command to keep the Sabbath holy was not arbitrarily given, but rather it teaches us about who God is and what he has done in regard to being the Creator, being holy, and being the type of God who saves His people out of Egypt, and we ought to seek by faith to live in a way that testifies about who God is and what He has done. Christ lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so becoming his follower is about seeing what he taught and wanting to become part of that.

The Bible says that obeying the Law to be justified before God brings a curse; because to be justified through the Law one must obey it perfectly from their youth up, and the reality is that no one has been able to achieve that.

Those who try to obey the Law in order to be accepted of God will be the ones who will cry out "Lord, Lord," on that day, and Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is not as though the fact that we don't earn our justification by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God. Christ set an example of keeping Sabbath holy and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

Note what Paul said to the Galatians, that they started in the Spirit, having faith alone in Christ, but why are they now trying to maintain their status before God by following the Law? He asked, "Who has bewitched you?" Performance-based Christianity is a lie which will keep folks out of heaven because it is based on self-improvement - and this is more New Age than Biblical Christian living.

 

[Soyeong]

I never understood the whole "we must keep the sabbath" argument that some protestant denominations argue about.

As if the Sabbath was stated in scripture to be a Saturday, but's simply rest on the 7th day. Just by our Gregorian calendar the 7th day is calculated to be Sunday.

In in a traditional and theological sense, Jesus rose on a Sunday which is already the start of the "new" therefore we worship on Sunday following this theological belief.

The Israelites received a double portion of manna for the 7th day, so they knew on which day God rested and we can look to the period of time that they have been keeping to determine when we should be keeping the 7th day holy, which is not Sunday. There is nothing about obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath holy that means that we shouldn't also worship God on other days. There is nothing about the day that Jesus happened to rise upon that means that we should disobey God's command against committing murder, theft, adultery, idolatry, breaking the Sabbath, or any of God's other commands.

In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so the problem is not with someone following their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath holy, but with them hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the Sabbath holy in order to establish their own tradition. Jesus rose on the Feast of Firstfuits as the firstfruits from the dead, so there was already a day rich with symbolism on which we can celebrate his resurrection, which is in accordance with what God has commanded, so there is absolutely no need whatsoever to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that. Worshiping God is about submitting to His commandments, so setting aside God's commands is the opposite of worshiping Him.

 

[Cis.jd]

Research on ISO 8601. The Sat being the 7th day isn't universal.

 

[HARK!]

heaven is a very lonely place

(CLV) Mt 7:14
Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.

Shabbat shalom

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Israelites received a double portion of manna for the 7th day, so they knew on which day God rested and we can look to the period of time that they have been keeping to determine when we should be keeping the 7th day holy, which is not Sunday. There is nothing about obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath holy that means that we shouldn't also worship God on other days. There is nothing about the day that Jesus happened to rise upon that means that we should disobey God's command against committing murder, theft, adultery, idolatry, breaking the Sabbath, or any of God's other commands.

In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so the problem is not with someone following their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the Sabbath holy, but with them hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the Sabbath holy in order to establish their own tradition. Jesus rose on the Feast of Firstfuits as the firstfruits from the dead, so there was already a day rich with symbolism on which we can celebrate his resurrection, which is in accordance with what God has commanded, so there is absolutely no need whatsoever to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that. Worshiping God is about submitting to His commandments, so setting aside God's commands is the opposite of worshiping Him.

It is true that God's Law and commands are good and holy. There is nothing wrong with them at all. Paul was quite clear about that. But the Law and commands failed to achieve salvation for mankind, because mankind was so sinful that they could not follow the Law and commands perfectly. This is because just one infraction of the Law and commands brings condemnation. Paul says that if one believes that the following the Law is a requirement for justification, then one should live by it perfectly without even one minor infraction.

One command is that we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. This means that we have to do this to absolute perfection from our youth up. If there is just one period where we have failed in any way to achieve perfection with these commands, we have broken them, and because of it, we have broken the whole Law of God, and are subject to condemnation, and therefore can never be justified before God in this way.

So, if you are advocating following the Law and commands of God, you need to set the example of following them without one single fault from your youth up. If you have failed in just one minor way, then you have transgressed the Law and commands and are in no position to make any requirements for anyone else without being seen as a hypocrite who says that we all should obey the Law and commands of Christ, and yet not being able to do so perfectly yourself.

 

[Cis.jd]

deleted

 

[Soyeong]

The Bible says that obeying the Law to be justified before God brings a curse; because to be justified through the Law one must obey it perfectly from their youth up, and the reality is that no one has been able to achieve that.

We do not earn our justification by obeying God's law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same one and only way as everyone else. God had no reason to provide an alternative an unattainable means of becoming justified by obedience to His law when a perfectly good means of justification by faith was already in place, so again it was never given for that purpose, so even if someone manage to live in perfect outward obedience to the law, then they still wouldn't earn their justification by it.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we needed perfect obedience makes God out to be an unloving Father who essentially gave the law in order to curse His children when it reality God is a loving Father who gave the law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). So the curse is not for those who obey the Law, but for those who refuse to submit to it. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so perfect obedience was never a requirement for us. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value disproves our need for perfect obedience.

Those who try to obey the Law in order to be accepted of God will be the ones who will cry out "Lord, Lord," on that day, and Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity."

Jesus did not say that he would tell the workers of the law to depart from him, but the workers of the lawlessness. Furthermore, he said that only those who do the Father's will would enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Father straightforwardly has made His will known though His law (Psalms 40:8). Though again, the obedience to God's law was never about trying to earn acceptance with God. If it were true that Jesus would tell people to depart for obeying the Father's will, then that would mean that the Father can't be trusted to lead us. Rather, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14), and is the will of the Father that we need to do to in order to enter the Kingdom.

 

[HARK!]

It is true that God's Law and commands are good and holy. There is nothing wrong with them at all. Paul was quite clear about that. But the Law and commands failed to achieve salvation for mankind, because mankind was so sinful that they could not follow the Law and commands perfectly. This is because just one infraction of the Law and commands brings condemnation. Paul says that if one believes that the following the Law is a requirement for justification, then one should live by it perfectly without even one minor infraction.

One command is that we are to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. This means that we have to do this to absolute perfection from our youth up. If there is just one period where we have failed in any way to achieve perfection with these commands, we have broken them, and because of it, we have broken the whole Law of God, and are subject to condemnation, and therefore can never be justified before God in this way.

So, if you are advocating following the Law and commands of God, you need to set the example of following them without one single fault from your youth up. If you have failed in just one minor way, then you have transgressed the Law and commands and are in no position to make any requirements for anyone else without being seen as a hypocrite who says that we all should obey the Law and commands of Christ, and yet not being able to do so perfectly yourself.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Yahshua Messiah, the Just.

 

[HARK!]

I will answer this piece by piece.

If you live in New York and it's 7pm Saturday Feb 22.. what is the day, date, and time in China?

I'm not in China. If I was in China; I would use the same sign that I use here, not a clock. Shabbat begins at sundown.

(CLV) Gn 1:14
And Elohim said: Let luminaries come to be in the atmosphere of the heavens to separate between the day and the night, that they may be for signs, for appointed seasons, for days and years.

Shabbat shalom

 

[Aussie Pete]

(CLV) Mt 7:14
Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.

Shabbat shalom

Yes, and observing the Law is NOT the way through the gate.

 

[HARK!]

Yes, and observing the Law is NOT the way through the gate.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.